A simple fix for Skirmisher/Vidette complaints

[thekev506]

Hi all,

 

A lot of people feel that the skirmisher and cavalry units are a little OP in the game, and I tend to agree.  I like having light infantry as separate units along with videttes, as it does encourage creative play, but right now they pack too much of a punch and can take too much of a beating compared to line infantry, and as they typically go for the artillery I find it difficult to keep my guns in any useful shape for long.

 

Here's my idea for a fix that would be easy to implement and test: make those units half as big.  Still as useful and versatile, but much more fragile and not as powerful.  Thoughts?

[JohnnyJingles]

I just had a battle playing as the union and my skirmishers did not seem that good compared to the bigger regiments maybe im missing something ?.

[N.C.rebel]

They're just dismounted cav

[Riekopo]

I don't even know how to use my skirmishers and cavalry. How do they differ from other units? The game doesn't say.

[JohnnyJingles]

Well they seem to be faster than normal regiments and they can quikcly pull out of a gunfight faster.

[Mr. Mercanto]

I agree with Johnny Jingles, the videttes and mounted rifles don't seem over powered to me. They seem just right actually.

[Orangewarbear]

First of all a big thank you to the developers for this nice game... but please get rid of these skirmishers and cavalry units or even weaken them significantly.

 

They are just overpowered and swarming all over the battlefield hunting for artillery and Victory Points which is quite annoying, unrealistic an immersion breaking.

 

And please think about a surrender feature for isolated and sourrounded enemy units rather then let them run through the Brigades firing at them.

[TheIronKing]

I think they're a minor concern at the moment. When playing as the union I felt my skirmishers and cav weren't great against the enemy and had to put them to good use flanking and hit and run like their purpose. I felt they were very balanced. 

When playing as the confederates they were an annoyance as some skirmishers units did take a hell of a beating and there retreating all the way to the edge of the battlefield then coming round behind me is annoying I agree.So far however I think they are a minor problem. 

[Karle]

I have just started playing the game and am overall very happy with it.

 

I have noted that the infantry divisions and cavalry regiments have skirmishers and videttes gathered as separate units which can act independently of their parent unit.  This is more akin to Napoleonic times when the light companies of the various regiments would be gathered together into a "light battalion".  I cannot recall any instances in my reading where skirmishers were sent far afield from their base unit to circle around enemy forces like might have happened with the light battalions of old.  It may make for a more interesting game, but to me such actions by skirmishers are not realistic to the Battle of Gettysburg.

 

In the Civil War generally the skirmishers came from a company or two selected at random which was sent 100 to 300 yards or so in front of the base unit when such a unit was stationary.  These were not special companies.  Their role was mostly one of harassing the enemy forces.  When the enemy forces advanced, they would retreat back to their base unit.  When their main unit advanced they would stay put and absorb back into the unit when it reached them and then join the advance.   

 

The companies of skirmishers would spread out in front of the base unit and take pot shots at the opposing troops.  Since they were "hiding" in many cases in brush where available they were harder to hit.  On the other hand, the damage they inflicted on the opposing forces was also minimal.  It was more psychological than anything else.  Yes, the skirmishers did inflict casualties, but not in any significant amount.  Instead their major impact was to reduce the effectiveness of the fire of the unit which they were firing at.  Thus, an infantry brigade or artillery battery under skirmish fire ought to be less effective and inflict less casualties than a unit not under such fire.

 

Thus, to me it would be more realistic if instead of having separate skirmish units each brigade when stationary would send out a few soldiers (maybe 10%) in front as skirmishers which would act appropriately based on the brigade's actions and the actions of the enemy.  However, that would require a major change in the game.

 

Those are my thoughts at least.

 

Karle 

[Ray_p]

I agree with most of the comments here.   As a new player there is just so much you can control and it's another thing to get frantic over in the midst of the battle.  I just can't control and digest all this stuff.   I guess I would prefer to not see them as separate units and have their power muted from what it is today.

[Zelekendel]

The main problem with the skirmishers and videttes is that they operate brazenly behind enemy lines, something beyond their role and capabilities, and then even more brazenly, they charge into batteries and even infantry brigades, triggering the game's buggy close combat system from the flank (stops all firing and tires and demoralizes the target unit at a "standard flanking rate") and then brigades from the front arrive.....

They should be relegated to slowing and harassment, not charging from behind the lines.

[R.E.B.Blunt]

Not only that but skirmishers and Videttes can storm through entire stationary Brigades. Come out the back side and now in prime position to attack cannons. I guess its cause on multiplayer we are stuck playing the first map over and over so we are using these Skirmishers way too much. But I have had many conversations with many different people and the two top issues people keep talking about are SKirmisher and Videttes. Then Enemy Routing units running in circles till it meets contact with your brigade and then sends shock through your brigade and now your brigade is routing.

[blood-phoenix]

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and make a broad statement (always risky) based on the people I've talked to about this.

I think people can be loosely placed in two groups on the subject of Buford's Cavalry in the first day scenario.

1.  The first group are those that think the dismounted skirmishers and videttes are not overpowered.
     There may be some true historians of the Civil War in this group, but I suspect that if there are, they 
     are mostly either people who haven't read enough about Cavalry tactics in the war, or people who are
     cavalry fans and will never see them as "too powerful".  But I suspect many of those who support their 
     current portrayal do so because they like to use them to win Scenario 1 in Multi-player, or because they
     just find them "fun" to use.

2.  The second group is those who have studied the Civil War enough to realize that as they are currently 
     portrayed, they are a complete flight of fantasy.  They not only unbalance Scenario 1, they take away from
     the credibility of the game as a representation of history, which is a real shame because I think the game
     is exceptional in so many other ways.  I will recommend it to the most hard-core Grognard or Civil War Buff
     I know, but I will also have to recommend that they avoid the July 1st morning scenario.  
 

[Karle]

My comments really were meant to apply to only infantry skirmishers and cavalry videttes.  The cavalry skirmishers are really not "skirmishers" per se at all but rather dismounted cavalry fighting in skirmish mode.  Normally when infantry skirmishers and cavalry videttes encounter an infantry brigade they are not very effective in slowing them down or stopping them but are rather swept aside.

 

At Gettysburg Buford used his videttes more as an early warning system to alert him to the approach of the Confederate troops.  That is why the videttes were posted farther ahead on the roads both West and North of his position.

 

Buford's dismounted cavalry (labelled skirmishers in the game), on the other hand, fighting in skirmish mode were effective against the Confederate infantry as they were armed with Spencer repeating rifles.

[fierman]

I just came back from a game where the union videttes completely annihilated the confederate batteries. Without taking losses really. I assume this will be fixed soon ?

[Ray_p]

I just came back from a game where the union videttes completely annihilated the confederate batteries. Without taking losses really. I assume this will be fixed soon ?

 

After I discovered how to use them I discovered the same thing,   I can clear every battery off the field with them.   Swing them wide on the flanks away from infantry and attack batteries from the flank or rear.    I do agree they are pretty powerful if used properly.

[fierman]

The problem is of course that this is not proper -historical- use of cavalry units

[David Fair]

If it was possible for cavalry videttes to sweep artillery in the ACW this would have been both proper and historical.

 

The UGG Videttes are pure fiction - let's get some storm troopers (no wait - we already have them - videttes)!

 

Cavalry had a choice during the ACW inaction or suicide.

 

The combination of lighter artillery and the rifled musket put an end to cavalry charges.  

Did cavalry charge during the ACW?  Yes.

Was cavalry slaughtered during the ACW?  Yes.

 

You don't get names like "Kill Cavalry Kipatrick" as a nom de guerre without a reason.

 

East Cavalry Field is 3 miles east because cavalry could fight cavalry safely at that distance.

 

South Cavalry Field was a fiasco because it was too close to the infantry.

 

The complaints against the fictional "wonder videttes" has a long and angry history.  

Many of the early testers were driven out of testing because of this vidette silliness.

[David Fair]

Why is it that every brigade is represented as a brigade in UGG yet Buford's 2 brigades are broken down into 5 units?

 

This is not internally consistent within the game design.

[David Fair]

Simple Fix For Videttes:

 

Startup Screen:

 

Cavalry On - click here

Cavalry Off - click here

[fierman]

Well, i am not getting angry about it, and I won't loose a night sleep on this. And for playtesting the problem is pretty irrelevant too: just don't use the units. (the AI doesn't abuse them either after all)

I think in the end the best option would be to get rid of the videttes as a whole indeed though.

[CSA Watkins]

Well, i am not getting angry about it, and I won't loose a night sleep on this. And for playtesting the problem is pretty irrelevant too: just don't use the units. (the AI doesn't abuse them either after all)

I think in the end the best option would be to get rid of the videttes as a whole indeed though.

Yea agree^^

The Videttes when playing MP are a pain in the butt(The Armies Approach Gettysburg) and other maps.. They charge arty, even when getting blasted with Canisters,

n still destroy Batteries. Totally Unrealistic...They are a glaring problem, and should be removed a.s.a.p.  imo.

 

The Union Vedettes make it very difficult to win as ANV.

You need to dispatch a Brigade/Skirmishers to protect. Than later on unprotected Batteries are slowly wheeled fwd from the west to get Harassed n Destroyed by Vedettes.

The ANV is under strength as it is, n having to dispatch Brigades to Protect is a disaster.

 

Also in SP this thing with the Cavalry running around on Maps at Gettysburg is a Head Shaker. If there is anything that smash/ends

immersion quickly is the arrival of the unrealistic Cavalry at Gettysburg. Unrealistic n Confusing as to Why they are even Present in the Game/On the Field!

 

1. Get rid of the Videttes asap! They were used as mostly Scouts...iirc...

2. Have Cavalry depicted as they should Historically be. I would have them removed all together,

Unless they were used as Dismounted Infantry/ Batteries If indeed they were used.  

 

The realistic on Day 1 morning Buford had (2?) Dismounted Infantry units. Did Buford bring any batteries to Gettysburg Morning 7/1/63?

[David Fair]

Calef's Battery of six 3 inch ordnance rifles supported Buford's two cavalry brigades (Gamble & Devin).  

 

Why is Buford even in this game with the status of a Corps Commander?  

 

Buford is the only Division Commander on either side in UGG.  

What is the logic for this deviation from UGG conventions?

 

Yet another deviation from the game design to make cavalry more powerful than it was historically.

 

 

Historical Note - 

Buford's third cavalry brigade (Merritt) was detached and served with Kilpatrick's Division on South Cavalry Field at Gettysburg.

[Harnis]

Yeah easy way to fix it would be to remove Buford as a general, and remove the horse units so you only have 2-3 dismounted cavalry as skirmishers