"Super-frigates" of the Great Lakes

[akd]

HMS Prince Regent (1814), 56 guns.

 

HMS Prince Regent was the largest British ship to see action on the Great Lakes in the War of 1812.  Built at Kingston, Ontario in response to the advent of American super-frigates and the arms race to maximize firepower relative to size in ships built to operate on the Lakes, the Prince Regent packed a big punch into a unique hull.  She was variously referred to as a frigate and a two-decker SoL.

 

 

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/66642.html#k3RsgjfGHcTwtqGG.97

 

 

Length of Gundeck - 155' 10"

Breadth - 43' 1"

Depth in Hold - 9' 2"

Burthen - 1,293 ⁵⁰⁄₉₄ Tons BM

 

Spar Deck - 20-24x 32pdr carronades + 4-8x 68pdr carronades (28x total)

Upper Deck - 28-30x 24pdr guns

 

Crew - variously reported as 280 and 550

 

 

 

To the casual observer there would have been little to distinguish these ships from the seagoing frigates of the Royal Navy. They were in fact of heavier construction than had been the norm, with thicker timbers and closer-fitting frames, the British having learnt the lesson of earlier frigate actions in the Atlantic where heavier-built American vessels had withstood shot  better than their British opponents. The most striking difference lay below the waterline; because the lake ships had no need to carry large quantities of drinking water - and thus had no need for a capacious hold - they could be sharper in profile, with a steeper frame 'deadrise'. This feature and a shallower draft made them fast and weatherly, and without the weight of water more guns could be carried. Other features reflected the expediency of construction. There had been no time to season the oak properly, so the wood was green, more vulnerable to rot. Shorter lengths of timber were used than was normally the case, scarfed and bolted together, and there had been no compass timbers or 'grown knees' from which curved elements were normally cut. Nevertheless, with a crew of 550, and armed with thirty twenty-four pounders and twenty-eight carronades - twenty of them 32 pounders and eight massive 68 pounders – she was well up to the task at hand, and with these two ships and several large brigs Sir Thomas Yeo had a frigate squadron as formidable as any that were ranging the high seas in the final years of the Napoleonic Wars.

 

 

 

An 1817 aquatint of the British squadron at anchor off Oswego on 6 May 1814, based on a drawing by a Royal Marines officer present at the action, Captain William Steele. The frigate to the right, flying the broad pennant of Commodore Sir James Yeo, is HMS Prince Regent, flagship of the squadron. The boats being rowed ashore are taking Royal Marines, sailors and soldiers to the assault of the fort atop the distinctive jutting promontory, visible amidst the smoke from the bombardment (National Archives of Canada).

 

 

Another 1815 aquatint of the Battle of Oswego based on a drawing by Royal Marines officer present at the action - in this case Lieutenant John Hewett, who climbed the flagpole of the fort and took down the Stars and Stripes. In the foreground HMS Prince Regent flies the broad pennant of Sir James Yeo; beyond that the British forces are landing and forming up to attack the Americans, who are on the lower slope opposite with the fort behind them. The entrance to the Oswego river, which allowed the Americans to bring up supplies and armaments from New York, is to the right (National Archives of Canada).

 

http://davidgibbins.com/journal/2016/4/5/diving-the-wreck-of-hms-prince-regent-1814-kingston-ontario-canada

[akd]

Her potential opponents (seeking plans)

 

USS Superior (1814), 58 guns

 

 

Length of Gundeck - 180'

Breadth - ?

Depth in Hold - ?

Burthen - 1580 Tons BM

 

Spar Deck - 26x 42pdr carronades + 2x 24pdr guns

Upper Deck - 30x 32pdr columbiads (short 32s)

 

Crew - 500

 

 

USS Mohawk (1814), 42 guns

 

Length of Gundeck - 155'

Breadth - 37' 6"

Depth in Hold - 15' 6"

Burthen - 1350 Tons BM

 

Spar Deck - 16x 32pdr carronades

Upper Deck - 26x 24pdr guns

 

Crew - 350

[Destraex]

imho if shallow water ships like this are made - including the niagara. Their disadvantages need to be made to balance them in the open world.

They need to somehow be restricted by supply and port visits or not allowed to go on trips outside of say 2 days in the open world before the crew dies of starvation.

 

Basically something to offset what seems to be the advantages of not being a proper sea going ship.

 

Built and served iirc on the great lakes like the niagara Shallow draught, cannot survive long at sea due to no room for supplies, built very tough compared to other similar ships and able to carry better armament for it's size due to the lack of need for supplies - meaning the weight normally reserved for supplies can be used for cannon!!! She is double deck and has been called both a SOL and a frigate!

 

I love this (original op) ship btw as it looks really good. It sounds like it was built where it served on the lakes?

 

Could shallow water ships like this have serve in the shallow water areas of naval action? Therefore should they be allowed to be built there and not travel outside of shallow areas unless they want to run out of supply??

[Talos]

The biggest difference and reason they could be so shallow was actually a nearly complete lack of water stowage, since they were made to float on and operate in fresh water. They just hoisted a bucket outboard instead. That's ton after ton of weight and stowage difference and extends all the way down to the small ones like the brig Oneida.

[Destraex]

My point is these ships should be penalised for the fact they have no staying power. Because on the flip side they get other advantages that real open sea warships cannot compete with.

[akd]

Could shallow water ships like this have serve in the shallow water areas of naval action? Therefore should they be allowed to be built there and not travel outside of shallow areas unless they want to run out of supply??

Prince Regent laden draught is basically the same as a 64-gun 3rd rate, so that would make very little sense. Certainly provision and repair capacity would need to be greatly reduced.

Personally, I'd like to see a two-faction Great Lakes map to play on with current population.

[Ned Loe]

My point is these ships should be penalised for the fact they have no staying power. Because on the flip side they get other advantages that real open sea warships cannot compete with.

Making them carry light armor will be a smart move. In my opinion they should be compared to Destroyers with very light armor and should be allowed in all Port battles. Developer made Niagara useless ship, but it can be easily fixed by reducing it's armor almost in half compared to Mercury, but keeping the gundeck. This means it can provide nice punch at close ranges, but will be easily destroyed if remained at close ranges for a long time.  

 

Devs wake up!

[Destraex]

Making them carry light armor will be a smart move. In my opinion they should be compared to Destroyers with very light armor and should be allowed in all Port battles. Developer made Niagara useless ship, but it can be easily fixed by reducing it's armor almost in half compared to Mercury, but keeping the gundeck. This means it can provide nice punch at close ranges, but will be easily destroyed if remained at close ranges for a long time.  

 

Devs wake up!

I have always disagreed with ahistorical balance for the sake of gameplay. Instead prefering gameplay mechanics that make the ships fit in all of their accurate glory.

Don't nerf the ship. Or how can you see it fight in all of it's glory and see how different match ups would have worked for real.

 

What would Victory be like vs the Connie for instance. We would have to say.. sorry in this game you cannot portray this match up. They played with the stats for the sake of gameplay. This game is just another World of War clone. Nothing interesting here. 

I would prefer a gameplay mechanic like limiting connie numbers or the connie to the US or my original suggestion in another thread of buffing gold returns for little used ships and nerfing them for most common ships used at any one time by the minute on the server dynamically. Thus we can really fear the victory because its not screwed with. They instead do their best to get it in game AS IS.

[BungeeLemming]

(just think of a lot of semi-rant which boils down to: your idea wont work with a sandbox game, which NA is intended to be)

What you write is artificial. Its not a balancing act. Its a limiting factor.

 

Blancing would be something within the ships' characteristics. Like heeling, turning, speed, armour, hp, crew protection etc.

These are factors which can balance a ship.

 

Are Carronades already easier destroyed than cannons? yes? no?

Thats a thing which can be adressed.

does the niagara sail a lot worse with 9pd longs? thats also a thing which can be done. Those 9pd are damm heavy and might even be phantasy compared to RL. What about that recoil?

 

There are manymany screws which you can adjust.

You dont need a hammer  in order to balance a sole ship - take a fine screwdriver.

 

 

and I do not support these "super heavy frigates which might compete with constitution"

The Conny already is one of the hardest ships to balance.

She is an outstanding ship. Add another one? Then we can just duplicate constis, give her another paint coat, change a stat here an there. voila new "superfrigate"

 

The time NA is set was dominated by 18pd frigates. The 24pd frigs came late 18th century.

Just cause some 24pd frigs sailed the ocean doesnt mean we have to have such class' ships as state of the art in pvp.

Ohwait. It already happened.

[Malachi]

I have a high-res plan  (5000 pix) of the Prince Regent if anyone wants to give her a try

[denAdmirant]

I love the Great Lakes ships, but if they ever show up in game, even just as plans rather than as they actually were, I certainly agree they should have penalties for time out of port, or something like that. I would absolutely love to see a Great Lakes theatre introduced, though!

Edited July 1, 2016 by denAdmirant