"Naval Arms Race" mod overhaul. BETA v11.4 - for UAD v1.5.1.6

[o Barão]

0.9.2.3 N.A.R. changelog:

• updated to UAD 1.3.7x3

[SpardaSon21]

13 hours ago, o Barão said:

I should make more clear to avoid any issue. It is a similar issue about your torpedo suggestion on destroyers.

To add or not is a global setting. I can't set the game to use only a specific amount of mines for that hull, or what ships inside that class can carry mines. That is the issue. You can mention specific ships with a specific tonnage category that could carry mines. That is fair and correct. The problem is Torpedo boats class goes from anything around 175 tons to 1000 tons in the modern hulls. And to have a small TB carrying a huge amount of mines is complete unrealistic.

That is the problem when trying to adapt historical facts to the engine game limitations. Sometimes by reading the game files it is possible to find a solution, as an example the 9" guns for the semi-armored cruisers. In this case I didn't find a solution, that is why I decided to remove them.

 

No, I think I know what you're trying to say here.  If minelaying worked the same as it did historically, I would absolutely agree with you.  However in the game right now surface minelayers are unable to deploy active minefields of any sort, and can only deploy defensive minefields and while docked in port, so even if a ship could realistically carry only two mines, shore facilities are right there for it to grab two more after it drops them.  And considering that the first minelaying tech is 10 tons... that's something you could fit on an early TB without too many problems if you were willing to make sacrifices to armament and/or speed.

Edited June 8, 2023 by SpardaSon21

[o Barão]

4 hours ago, SpardaSon21 said:

No, I think I know what you're trying to say here.  If minelaying worked the same as it did historically, I would absolutely agree with you.  However in the game right now surface minelayers are unable to deploy active minefields of any sort, and can only deploy defensive minefields and while docked in port, so even if a ship could realistically carry only two mines, shore facilities are right there for it to grab two more after it drops them.  And considering that the first minelaying tech is 10 tons... that's something you could fit on an early TB without too many problems if you were willing to make sacrifices to armament and/or speed.

You are right. No need to complicate things about this matter. Anyway, is not a fantasy request what you are asking. I will enable mines on TBs.

[o Barão]

0.9.2.4 N.A.R. changelog:

• Added mines and radar tech to TBs.

[o Barão]

0.9.3 N.A.R. changelog:

• updated to UAD 1.3.8

[JaM]

I'm getting this missing text (dd_5_stern_large_russia?):

(its not new, seen it in previous versions of mod too, just forgot to report it)

[o Barão]

2 hours ago, JaM said:

I'm getting this missing text (dd_5_stern_large_russia?):

(its not new, seen it in previous versions of mod too, just forgot to report it)

That is from my hulls editing. In fact, thank you for remind me. That one can be removed since it is not being used.

[o Barão]

0.9.3 N.A.R. changelog:

USA guns Special Edition

• updated to UAD 1.3.8R
• All USA guns reworked, now following a new set of rules that is going to be applied for all nations. A- If the gun model is based on a historical gun, the historical barrel length will be applied to all gun calibers sharing that specific model, cross all MK variants. B- If there is no historical gun to use as reference, then the comparison between the 3D models will determine the gun barrel length. This change will provide for the players a clean and nice gun catalog to look at. Next in line is the French guns.
• Added the Japanese 8-8 fleet construction plan for the AI to follow.

 

Both the resource and english files were updated.

Strongly recommended deleting both the custom and campaign save files to see the changes from mod and also the new campaign changes from the devs in action.

Edited June 10, 2023 by o Barão

[Fangoriously]

Did you adjust the size of the 'modern' turrets at all? Going from the Texas turrets to those it looks like one or the other is scalled way to big or way to small.

Introduced at the same time as those Texas turrets was a variation of the model, squished and fat looking, used by the Chinese for large secondary and some small main guns. Those might make for better models of American cruiser main guns I was thinking.

On French guns, there's actually quite a few models used on 1 or 2 mk1 guns and that's it, wile another model get used extensively for mk1 all the way through mk4 in some cases. This would be an opertunity for some of those barly used models to get a bit more use.

[mrfox1918]

Is it just me or does main gun accuracy seem really off in 1.8.3?

Did a few 1910 and 1915 era custom battles.  Built a 27,000 ton German BC with A,B,X,Y dual mark 2 12" guns.

Would have a to hit chance/accuracy of maybe 20% or so at range. 

As soon as A turret fires the accuracy instantly keeps dropping to 0% making B, X and Y turrets have 0-2% accuracy during that same salvo.  The gun recoil de-buff would spike anywhere from -80% to like -130% or -140% making only the 1st turret to fire have any chance to hit.  I get gun recoil was a major thing but this just seems off to me.

Seems to happen in both NAR and vanilla but I think its much worse in NAR due to the accuracy rebalancing? 

[o Barão]

11 hours ago, mrfox1918 said:

Would have a to hit chance/accuracy of maybe 20% or so at range.

Source?

 

11 hours ago, mrfox1918 said:

As soon as A turret fires the accuracy instantly keeps dropping to 0% making B, X and Y turrets have 0-2% accuracy during that same salvo.  The gun recoil de-buff would spike anywhere from -80% to like -130% or -140% making only the 1st turret to fire have any chance to hit.  I get gun recoil was a major thing but this just seems off to me.

Seems to happen in both NAR and vanilla but I think its much worse in NAR due to the accuracy rebalancing? 

Those modifiers are the same for both N.A.R. and UAD.

 

16 hours ago, Fangoriously said:

Did you adjust the size of the 'modern' turrets at all? Going from the Texas turrets to those it looks like one or the other is scalled way to big or way to small.

Are you talking about going from Iowa guns to the NY quad version?

If you are asking what I did to the guns, I can only recommend reading the mod description. The full list of what I did already is huge, and many small tweaks are not even mention.

The priority now is to fix all guns calibers based on historical data. I already did many guns swap between nation when I felt it was the right thing to do. It takes too much work, so don't expect more of that. What I want to do is huge already and will take time to have everything done. If I don't set priorities, I will lose track and I will never end my work. That Chinese gun model, as you mention, is good to be only Chinese. It is not used by the Americans, and helps in building a specific design language for that nation.

[o Barão]

The mod was updated to the recent changes by the devs. No changelog edit is needed.

Edited June 11, 2023 by o Barão

[Fangoriously]

9 hours ago, o Barão said:

Are you talking about going from Iowa guns to the NY quad version?

If you are asking what I did to the guns, I can only recommend reading the mod description. The full list of what I did already is huge, and many small tweaks are not even mention.

The priority now is to fix all guns calibers based on historical data. I already did many guns swap between nation when I felt it was the right thing to do. It takes too much work, so don't expect more of that. What I want to do is huge already and will take time to have everything done. If I don't set priorities, I will lose track and I will never end my work. That Chinese gun model, as you mention, is good to be only Chinese. It is not used by the Americans, and helps in building a specific design language for that nation.

I'm talking about the glaring bore size difference of the rifles, between the older style Texas/Standards turret models and the newer style NC/SD/Iowa turret models.

Since you made all US quads use the unique US quad model, its easy to do direct comparisons between model types. The Texas/Standards triple/dual/single and quad rifles look identical in bore size when compared.

Here is a triple 16in compared to a quad 20in, the bore on the 16in iowa turret model is noticeably bigger. even worse when you compare 16in to 16in

I think modders in the past have mentioned being at least able to adjust the scale of gun models, wile you are going to the trouble of dialing in some turret stats and calibers, I thought things like this might be worth making more accurate as well. I haven't ever used his mod, but i think this is something admiralsnackbar might be doing in his mod currently, his **With gun resizer** addition.

 

This might help your research also, in gathering historically accurate turret info.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_naval_guns_by_caliber

 

[Admiral Hipster]

Can you make it possible for Germany to build pre dreadnoughts between the 1920's and 1930's?
I want to start the German campaign in 1920 and I would like to have the Deutschland class.

(Sorry for my english, it's not my native language)

[o Barão]

3 hours ago, Admiral Hipster said:

Can you make it possible for Germany to build pre dreadnoughts between the 1920's and 1930's?
I want to start the German campaign in 1920 and I would like to have the Deutschland class.

(Sorry for my english, it's not my native language)

Not going to happen in N.A.R. I like to focus on historical accuracy for the most part as the base foundation for my work. But I am sure there will be mods for that. In fact, I think there is already one. I don't know if it is updated, you will need to check. See the link below.

.

5 hours ago, Fangoriously said:

I'm talking about the glaring bore size difference of the rifles, between the older style Texas/Standards turret models and the newer style NC/SD/Iowa turret models.

That is a 3D model limitation. We can change the gun scale, but not the bore size or barrel length without scaling everything. But if you look at the turret diameter base and barrel length, it should be very close. And for the most part you will not be using quads with other main guns of the same caliber and vice versa, so is not real an issue. As an example, look at the image below.

I add a crazy barrel length value for the 11" single barrel. There is no difference between the 3D models in size.

 

5 hours ago, Fangoriously said:

I think modders in the past have mentioned being at least able to adjust the scale of gun models, wile you are going to the trouble of dialing in some turret stats and calibers, I thought things like this might be worth making more accurate as well. I haven't ever used his mod, but i think this is something admiralsnackbar might be doing in his mod currently, his **With gun resizer** addition.

 

As I mention above, yes, we can scale the gun models. I am doing that already for months. About the "gun resizer" from "admiralsnackbar". I don't want to sound disrespectful, but by reading the mod description, I am seeing features that are a direct copy from what I implemented in the past with small differences. Just by reading the description, he mentions 9" guns for light cruisers. The difference is I wanted to be more realistic, so I limited that to all semi armored cruisers. He added 6" casemates to light cruisers. I prefer to limit to 5" again for historical reasons, but the idea is the same. And he is also focusing in making many small caliber guns to mostly be shielded mounts. Again, a similar idea to my work. Strange.

 

But since both are editing similar files, I don't expect anything big different. We are working with the same limitations.

 

[Fangoriously]

Your mod stands out in that by utilizing stock assets to created several new hulls, resurrected TBs, and added lots of towers and funnels to other hulls, and it looked like you were more far along with figuring out a lot of game parameters to tweek. That and a lot of other features was enough for me to start using a modded version, the other mod wasn't worth the waiting for version updates imo.

You are right, light cruisers main guns need more than just a blanket 9in usage imo, 9in is right on semi armored, maybe a max of 6in on protected cruisers, but i'd like to see up to 8in main guns on 'modern' light cruisers. There's at least one class of those, and the tonnage of those hulls best matches treaty heavy cruiser characteristics.  And i'm so sick of seeing the AI building 6in gun heavy cruisers, I'd make the range of main guns be 8in-12in, when was there anything considered a heavy cruiser with guns smaller than 8in?

About the gun model scaling, ya i realize the whole model would need to be scaled up, but I think the whole model is scaled badly anyway. If it were me doing the hard work, I'd start by reduce all uses of the Iowa gun's scale by 5% and increase all uses of the texas gun's scale 5%, and see how that looked. Always thought that iowa gun model was a bit to large, and those newly introduced Texas guns definitely to small. At a glance of that first picture i posted, you would think that 20in quad and 16in triple were both 16in, had i not mentioned it was a 20in.

[SpardaSon21]

9 hours ago, o Barão said:

The difference is I wanted to be more realistic, so I limited that to all semi armored cruisers. He added 6" casemates to light cruisers. I prefer to limit to 5" again for historical reasons, but the idea is the same.

Several light/protected cruisers of the USA mounted 8" guns, including one class explicitly designed as a commerce raider.  The other was one of our first steel-hulled warships, USS Chicago.  The Pensacola and Northampton classes were laid down under the Washington limits that didn't discriminate between light and heavy cruisers (that would come with the London Naval Treaty in 1930), and were classed as light cruisers as armor had to be compromised to fit those 8" guns in the 10,000 ton limit.  Further, they even carried torpedoes in their initial configurations to aid in their role as light cruisers.

As for classes with 6" casemates, you've got Omaha, St. Louis, and Diadem, the first of those being scout cruisers, the latter two semi-armored cruisers.

Edited June 12, 2023 by SpardaSon21

[o Barão]

36 minutes ago, SpardaSon21 said:

Several light/protected cruisers of the USA mounted 8" guns, including one class explicitly designed as a commerce raider.  The other was one of our first steel-hulled warships, USS Chicago.  The Pensacola and Northampton classes were laid down under the Washington limits that didn't discriminate between light and heavy cruisers (that would come with the London Naval Treaty in 1930), and were classed as light cruisers as armor had to be compromised to fit those 8" guns in the 10,000 ton limit.  Further, they even carried torpedoes in their initial configurations to aid in their role as light cruisers.

As for classes with 6" casemates, you've got Omaha, St. Louis, and Diadem, the first of those being scout cruisers, the latter two semi-armored cruisers.

You can always find one example with a bigger caliber gun there, or another protected cruiser with slightly bigger casemate guns, but that is irrelevant. You can always scale the gun diameter to have 7.9" main guns and 5.9" casemates guns, so basically almost exactly the same. So that is cover, and not only that, the gun limitation I am using prevents unrealistic fantasy situations from happening or for mixing so much the classes, that the player would ignore what is a CA or CL and simple call them cruisers. There are many good reasons why both classes were needed, and I like to preserve that in game.

[Tornado1555]

Trying to get into UA:D and I feel like one of the best ways to break the mental blockade and actually try the campaign. There are obviously a couple of well made mods on this forum and I've chosen this one to potentially dive back into the game. Before I do, though, I have a question that concerns the game (and figured that this was a good place to ask it since people are likely more experienced here):

Is there a particular reason why maximum armour limits in the game vary the way they are, and is it possible for them to be standardized at least somewhat, or across classes/years? It seems arbitrary that a maximum thickness on a turret varies with its calibre, stranger still that it seems to be almost always different from the CT and Belt thicknesses.

It's something that seems really restrictive: at first glance I don't see why I should try my first pre-dreadnought with a smaller calibre main battery, because the main gun's restricted turret maximum armour thickness is increasingly vulnerable to enemy fire... even though I have the reserve displacement to fit heavier turret armour to match my less-limited belt.

Aside from that, great first impressions from this mod, I look forward to seeing the improvements in action, when I get some more time!

[o Barão]

12 hours ago, Tornado1555 said:

Is there a particular reason why maximum armour limits in the game vary the way they are, and is it possible for them to be standardized at least somewhat, or across classes/years? It seems arbitrary that a maximum thickness on a turret varies with its calibre, stranger still that it seems to be almost always different from the CT and Belt thicknesses.

I guess it's to help the AI in the design process. If there are no limits, you would see 5" guns with 20" armor thickness as an example.

 

 

Edited June 13, 2023 by o Barão

[o Barão]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QF_4.7-inch_Mk_XI_naval_gun

Preview

• Frenchs guns rework done
• British guns rework done
• Casemates guns rework done
• Germans and Austrian guns next.

[Fangoriously]

could you maybe revert the mk4+ 5in gun model change? The historically accurate 5/38 model was fine, and didn't have issues fitting in the gun mounts next to the main guns on all these new american hulls.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Fangoriously

[o Barão]

43 minutes ago, Fangoriously said:

could you maybe revert the mk4+ 5in gun model change? The historically accurate 5/38 model was fine, and didn't have issues fitting in the gun mounts next to the main guns on all these new american hulls.

I can do better. Tell me what is the hull, tower component and I will check if there are any issues. If, yes I can scale down the turret, or scale up the tower.

 

But I am not going to change the gun model. The new version, is exclusive for the Americans, and the old version, is going to be used by Spain or China. 

[Fangoriously]

Well, the model being shared does lend it slight generic status, but its still a historically accurate American turret for exactly that gun in particular, and any historical build are that much less accurate for it's model change. More important than that of course is that on every single "texas" hull they added recently, you cant fit a mk4+ 5in gun in the built in mounts adjacent to the super firing main gun like in the picture, not even if you maxed the beam and stuck a tiny 9in gun on the barbette, they interfere with each other utterly. It seems to be a model hitbox issue on the more advanced looking turret, that the more generic 5/38 turret doesn't have.

If you can edit hitboxes on turret models though, than by all means do that, and then totally do away with interference on 2in guns! 2in turrets not blocking or interfering with main gun fireing arcs, especially on these modernized texas hulls, would be amazing.

Wile we are on this subject though, what inspired the choice of shielded gun model for the mk4+ 4in gun? I've no complaints but i was just wondering.

One final idea for compromise, its clearly possible to have different models for different numbers of barrels, on the American 5in, how about use the 'generic' 5/38 turret for the twin gun, but keep the advanced looking turret you're using now for the triple barrel?

The British turret you use for 3/4in single guns on American destroyers, why not use it on the 5in as well? that is the closest looking to historically accurate model to use for single barrel 5/38, and has to be why you use it for 3/4in in the first place.

[o Barão]

6 hours ago, Fangoriously said:

 More important than that of course is that on every single "texas" hull they added recently, you cant fit a mk4+ 5in gun in the built in mounts adjacent to the super firing main gun like in the picture, not even if you maxed the beam and stuck a tiny 9in gun on the barbette, they interfere with each other utterly. It seems to be a model hitbox issue on the more advanced looking turret, that the more generic 5/38 turret doesn't have.

I don't have access to that specific hull, with those 5" MK variants in custom battles.

But I tried on another similar hull and is working. So must be a specific issue from that 3D model.

 

6 hours ago, Fangoriously said:

 

If you can edit hitboxes on turret models though, than by all means do that, and then totally do away with interference on 2in guns! 2in turrets not blocking or interfering with main gun fireing arcs, especially on these modernized texas hulls, would be amazing.

The trick is to use the specific positions where the 2" positions will be ignored.

 

7 hours ago, Fangoriously said:

Wile we are on this subject though, what inspired the choice of shielded gun model for the mk4+ 4in gun? I've no complaints but i was just wondering.

Lack of options.

 

7 hours ago, Fangoriously said:

One final idea for compromise, its clearly possible to have different models for different numbers of barrels, on the American 5in, how about use the 'generic' 5/38 turret for the twin gun, but keep the advanced looking turret you're using now for the triple barrel?

The British turret you use for 3/4in single guns on American destroyers, why not use it on the 5in as well? that is the closest looking to historically accurate model to use for single barrel 5/38, and has to be why you use it for 3/4in in the first place.

Ask me those questions, or suggest changes after I finish the gun's rework for all nations. Many things are changing at the moment. This is taking many hours, and I still have a long road ahead of me. I can't lose focus and go back because X gun could be Y.

 

In essence, what you need to know is this:

• To be as historical accurate as possible.
• To add, non-shielded turrets for smaller caliber guns. Mostly in early eras. Not the same for all nations to add variety.
• To create an exclusive design language for each nation where it is possible to make them all interesting, and that also includes China and Spain. I already have a few ideas how to make these 2 nations more interesting.