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"Naval Arms Race" mod overhaul. BETA v11.2 - for UAD v1.5.1.3


o Barão

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My point is, that longer barrel would have higher muzzle speed and therefore better accuracy over short distances, not the long ones. at long distances, where you fire "indirectly" dispersion of the gun plays much higher role than muzzle velocity.

 

Gun with muzzle speed of 800-900m/s will hit enemy object at 1000m a lot easier than similar gun with 500-600m/s, as movement of enemy object doesn't play as big role. not the other way around. Its quite similar to tank combat - low velocity guns were used with infantry support guns, and these were commonly firing at 4-5km using indirect fire, while long barreled guns, were optimized for 1-2km engagements, where they could hit even moving targets. Muzzle velocity main advantage is in flat trajectory and  "projectile flight time to target" which is important when you engage moving objects while you are moving. At shorter distances dispersion doesnt present as huge problem as it does at longer range - for example 88mm L56 gun had dispersion in tests 35cm at 1000m. (ww2 stats) at 2km it would be 65-70cm, etc.. yet due to muzzle velocity around 800m/s, this gun was effective against enemy tanks up to 1200m, beyond that range, it became less and less effective as its dispersion would mean it could completely miss the target. Similarly, short 75mm L24 with muzzle velocity just 385m/s had dispersion of 25cm at 1000m, 50cm at 2km. so in long range shooting against stationary targets, it was quite decent weapon and was used for infantry support, lobing HE shells at long distances. At longer distances, its the fire control system that calculates the shell dropoff, so it doesnt play that much role, instead, shell dispersion plays main role.

(i'm using this example as lots of naval guns were actually converted into tank guns during WW2)

 

So, In your example at 20km, i would argue that short barreled gun of latest tier would have superior accuracy at that distance than long barreled gun 1 tier below, as gun dispersion at that distance plays much more important role, and muzzle velocity loses its importance at such extreme ranges.  Simply put - flat trajectory of high muzzle speed shells is only beneficial at short distances, not long distances.

 

Vanilla game is completely wrong altogether, as accuracy bonuses for short range are just ridiculously high. Your reduced accuracy is a lot better, just the relation between muzzle speed and short range accuracy seems to be reversed.

 

Also, i think it would kinda solve your "rate of fire" dilemma, as it would be more beneficial to use long barrels for short range, therefore rate of fire would go down, which would make game handle it a bit better.

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1 hour ago, JaM said:

...just the relation between muzzle speed and short range accuracy seems to be reversed.

This is the key. I am not saying that you are wrong. In fact, it is the opposite. I agree with you 100% about this. The problem is what I want, and in this case is the same thing as you. Is how I can make it happen in game. Unless.... I need to test one thing

 

It is a similar thing with deck. In stock game, increasing the barrel will lower the deck pen. This is false. In fact, will increase the deck. Not in the same ranges as in comparison with the previous barrel length, but at maximum ranges you will get better deck pen values. But because of the way the modifiers work, the best I can get is a relation 1=1 between default and increased barrel length. Still an improvement in comparison to stock game.

 

UPDATE: As I suspected. I can invert the muzzle velocity values to invert the mechanic logic. But that will give me UI issues and also range issues. And I don't have access to the muzzle velocity modifiers. I can't do anything here.

HCONk5W.jpg

pSLkAy5.jpg

Edited by o Barão
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If i recall correctly, they did decrease deck pen for longer barrels/high muzzle velocity due to trajectory of the projectile being flatter, therefore projectile impact angle would make base armor have a lot more LOS - impact angle of 60 degree increases armor 2x, impact angle 70 degrees increases it almost 4x.. so higher is the muzzle velocity, less likely is the penetration of the deck armor. Game simulates horizontal angling, but not vertical, so this is the way how to simulate it to some degree

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1 hour ago, JaM said:

If i recall correctly, they did decrease deck pen for longer barrels/high muzzle velocity due to trajectory of the projectile being flatter...

And that is misleading. And I can show you why, with real data.

yW9IaP5.png

Here you are seeing the ballistic data from the American 16"/45 MK6

Look at deck pen value at maximum range. 10.5 inches.

 

aTWe43u.png

And here you are seeing the ballistic data from the American 16"/50 Mk7.

Look at the deck pen values at maximum range. 11.3 inches

 

Why are these two historical guns so important for what I am telling you? Because both are using the same shell.  And at maximum range, both have a similar angle of impact (the value from the 4th column)

 

So what is important to know is if you have two similar guns, using the same shell, same elevation angle, but one gun have higher muzzle velocity you will get this always:

  • The gun with the higher muzzle velocity will always have a better deck pen at maximum range.
  • If both guns can reach the same target, then the gun will less muzzle velocity will have the better deck pen.*

 

*This is very simple to explain. For the gun with higher muzzle velocity to hit the same target, will need to use less gun elevation in comparison with low muzzle velocity gun. So a more flat trajectory, and less deck pen as a consequence. That is why is misleading what you mention.

 

But at maximum range, the higher muzzle velocity gun will always give you better deck pen values. Same gun elevation, but more speed, more kinetic energy, etc.

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Well yes, but in both those impact angle is 50 degrees, which means, armor LOS is  against such projectile is more - for 50 degrees impact angle, armor resistance is 1.31, which means if that armor is 100mm thick, it will resist as if it was 131mm thick.

 

Main problem to simulate is the ballistic impact of large blunt projectiles against armor. For example, in WW2, soviet tanks preferred to use large caliber guns (IS2 used 122mm gun) which had relatively smaller penetration, but due to shear size of the projectile, they were able to defeat armor they should be not able to by calculation - why? because size of shell plays role - if caliber is bigger than strike plate, let say 122mm shell hits 80mm armor sloped at 60 degree which gives 160 LOS thickness, this shell clearly overmatches the armor, and will be able to defeat it, even if paper kinetic energy shows penetration just 140mm..

 

So in case of 16 inch shell, of course it will overmatch the 11inch armor, because it is just too big to be impacted by the strike angle.

But that's just theory. Question is, how to implement it into a game, which does things quite differently and uses multiple armor multipliers that adjust armor resistance, while it doesn't have any vertical angle calculations, but instead, tries to calculate impact by "reducing penetration".  Of course, its quite hard to come with best solution within hardcoded calculation system, and i understand your frustration. Personally, i like early game more than late game, I usually quit playing campaigns past 1920..

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0.9.3 N.A.R. changelog:

Japanese Guns Rework Special Edition (part III)

  • Updated to UAD 1.3.9r
  • Guns rework done for these nations: USA; Britain; France; Austria-Hungary; Germany, Italy and Japan.
  • Many changes to the years when the guns become available. This was done to improve the gun progression, making the campaign more interesting in early years, using historical guns as a reference when specific calibers are unlocked, but more important to fix one major issue related to the 19" and 20" MK1 guns.*
  • German 11" Mk2 gun model changed to allow the players to build the Nassau and other similar ships.

 

* Because of the changes to the guns years, the campaign and custom save files need to be deleted.

Edited by o Barão
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  • o Barão changed the title to "Naval Arms Race" mod overhaul. Alpha build 0.9.3 - Japanese Guns Rework Special Edition (part III) - for UAD v1.3.9r
On 6/16/2023 at 3:46 PM, o Barão said:

Good question. We are still expecting at least another major update that I will need to adapt the mod. But let's imagine for a second that there are no more updates. In that case, the order of priority is this:

  • Finish the gun rework for all nations.
  • Improve the early and interwar destroyers design language per nation.
  • Rework many funnel stats.
  • Remove all fantasy secondary towers from the game if possible.
  • Fix "Experimental Dreadnought III main towers" issue. Stock game issue.
  • To check if the "night" status is working in game. If yes, enable in the UI and probably give a bonus to late Japanese towers in comparison to the other nations of the same time period.
  • Probably add a penalty to the floatability values to all tumblehome hulls.  A penalty for early "french" designs.
  • Try to fix or improve many stats from the beam and draught slider. Stock game issue.
  • If the devs failed to remove or fix the range boost issue, try to find a solution. Stock game issue.

 

After this is finish, the game will leave alpha status and will get into a beta status. The players will be free to save the designs and play the campaigns without any wipes.

  • In beta, I expect:
  • To fix any possible issues related to my editing.
  • Tweak some hull and component stats if needed.
  • Improve AI behavior in combat.
  • Start working in a ship pack for all nations

 

Maybe create a Portuguese file for N.A.R. (my native language)

Just catching up here...

You really are going to try to give the TTE treatment to this game, aren't you? I don't have the time to test for you, but holy s*** do I hope you have the time and passion to pull this off.

I really wish I had something more to offer than encouragement, but I don't, so that'll have to do for now. :(

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I'll need to start another campaign thanks to you doing these updates so quickly, especially with the recent string of updates from the devs.  Not that I mind since you're doing great work.  Once again I'd like to request you adjust the powder/filler/type modifiers to be truer to history at some point.  If you'd like I can try to come up with at least the filler stats for you, if you think that would help out.  I'd need to do some more research into shell types and powders to come up with something reasonable for them, which would take a fair bit of time.

Edited by SpardaSon21
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6 hours ago, killjoy1941 said:

Just catching up here...

You really are going to try to give the TTE treatment to this game, aren't you? I don't have the time to test for you, but holy s*** do I hope you have the time and passion to pull this off.

I really wish I had something more to offer than encouragement, but I don't, so that'll have to do for now. :(

Thanks! In TTE was a lot easier in the end. I had a talented group of modders, experts in different areas, to bring a unique and special product. I hope to create something similar. :)

2 hours ago, SpardaSon21 said:

I'll need to start another campaign thanks to you doing these updates so quickly, especially with the recent string of updates from the devs.  Not that I mind since you're doing great work.

Likewise, I was hoping to release everything by the end of the week, but I was forced to release a new version because of the UAD update. The changes I made to the guns were needed, so that is why I am asking to delete the save files. But after I finish the gun's rework, I will take a small break from modding.

2 hours ago, SpardaSon21 said:

Once again I'd like to request you adjust the powder/filler/type modifiers to be truer to history at some point.  If you'd like I can try to come up with at least the filler stats for you, if you think that would help out.  I'd need to do some more research into shell types and powders to come up with something reasonable for them, which would take a fair bit of time.

It is the 3 or 4 time you are asking me that. :D

 

The thing is, that subject is not my strong point. So I can't say what is wrong or right about that.

 

But if you really think there is something wrong, create a list will all the modifications you would make, with the new stats modifiers, and source links for each component, so I can read and try to understand why there is a need for change.

I cannot promise that I will change anything, but I can read and try to understand. But take into account that I'm not an engineer. If you want to kill me with boredom, just give me dozens of pages full of chemical formulas. Simple language for a simple mortal like me is needed.

 

NOTE: If we have 10 propellant components, I need to have 10 propellant components. Not more, not less.

 

Also, no need to rush anything. I want to finish the gun rework and then take a little break. So take your time. 

Edited by o Barão
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Preview

Ayt9Jyx.jpg

1IyKfjN.jpg

Modernized Dreadnought I hull packages reworked for China and Spain.

Note: Still working on the guns rework for these 2 nations. Some secondaries model will be replaced. W.I.P.

CQJ1MTR.jpg

Edited by o Barão
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Interesting bug I've come across in my 1900 start German campaign with your excellent mod. I've unlocked the Mk 4 8-inch guns and the base barrel length is 6 calibres long, and the performance is proportionally lacking as well.

Um9jFrF (2).jpeg

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4 hours ago, spinaker said:

Is there an option to disable the disintegration of nations in the game? Constantly two or three major states like France or Great Britain disappear and it becomes frankly boring.

I am not aware.

 

7 minutes ago, Suts said:

Interesting bug I've come across in my 1900 start German campaign with your excellent mod. I've unlocked the Mk 4 8-inch guns and the base barrel length is 6 calibres long, and the performance is proportionally lacking as well.

Thanks. Fixed. 👍

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1 hour ago, o Barão said:

Preview.

PNVB9Dk.jpg

USA single and double barrel 5"/38

looking good! Those single mounts look like they could fit were duals or triples could not, which is exactly how it should be with gun models. Could probably do the same with 4in, for lack of better options.

Those Chinese and Spanish dreads, vast improvements as well. Currently, they hold the distinction in game as being hulls with the least win rate in custom battle, their possible stats are just too low and guns too small to beat even most auto generated ~1940 battleships. last time I checked the Chinese hull I couldn't put larger than an 8in gun on the forward barrette, wasn't sure if that was stock game issue or mod, then forgot to report it anywhere, looks like a non issue now, forgot that gun model even existed.

One of the many things in need of a rework right now IMO, is an overhaul of the American capital ships from the dreadnought era on. But they just got so many hulls and towers added you might say! Yes and its all incredibly half done. The battle cruisers especially, its not until BC 3 till you get a hull that can use the new cage masts, and the main tower is INCREDIBLY oversized. Those should be on BC 1 though, BC 2 and 3 should get those new giga towers or whatever. How about just removing that original American dreadnought (USA) so the AI doesn't actually use it? hopelessly broken hull, and already replaced anyway by 'experimental dreadnought 1' I think they call it. Those nice 'rangefinder tower' and 'spotting tower' secondary towers should be added to dread 3, 4, and 5, the battle cruisers, and should replace all the Japanese parts on the modern battleships too. that new modern tower without the barrette, I'd love that on modern battleships as well. How about giga towers on the modern BBs and supper BB too?. And that new modern BB1 and fast BB (BC) hull that unlocks after 2 and 3, i would say maybe just rename them but they need more work than that. first, the BC variant is 10k tons heavier? And for a hull that unlocks later its hull form, resistance, etc all its stats are worse. tower selection needs improving too. Just in general i think modernized Dread hulls should be unlocking around ~1927 and modern BBs not unlocking till ~1933, not at the same time.

dunno if you would be interested in doing all that work or if you agree any of it is needed, but thats whats bothering me the most, all the parts are there they just aren't in the right places yet.

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2 hours ago, Fangoriously said:

Could probably do the same with 4in, for lack of better options.

Did the same for the 6". Not the 4" because I want to keep that 2x and 3x gun model in game to add variety.

2 hours ago, Fangoriously said:

 and the main tower is INCREDIBLY oversized.

Easy to fix.

2 hours ago, Fangoriously said:

 How about just removing that original American dreadnought (USA) so the AI doesn't actually use it? hopelessly broken hull, and already replaced anyway by 'experimental dreadnought 1' I think they call it.

Difficult to understand. That is an historical hull...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Carolina-class_battleship

...and it is a very good hull. Great stats. The best gun platform in game for the time period.

2 hours ago, Fangoriously said:

dunno if you would be interested in doing all that work or if you agree any of it is needed, but thats whats bothering me the most, all the parts are there they just aren't in the right places yet.

I'm exhausted. I will take a break after I finish the gun rework. And if we are talking about the ships packages, I already have many things I want to do first. Some things you mention, I agree, but aren't going to happen anytime soon.

 

  • I scaled down the "2nd gen Large Cage Mast II & I"
  • I added "2nd gen Large Cage Mast II & I", "Enhanced Sec Cage mast III" and "Large Cage Mast" to american BC II
Edited by o Barão
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Ah, 6in ya good idea. At least the battle cruiser changes where easy enough to pull off, thats good. too bad BC3 is unlocked at like 1913, those should be more spaced out, like BC3 should unlock at like 1920, and have giga towers, etc. Its just BC3 from 1913 to 1928 lol.

'experimental dreadnought 1' seemed like an effective replacement for the South Carolina hull, with all its problems of restrictive secondary gun placement, superstructure and funnels only placeable on marked mount points, these parts fitting together very poorly, and a heavy weight offset so bad in the stock game it could only be balanced by using only 1 main gun up front. I didn't think anyone would miss it lol. did build one in the editor and it wasn't quite as bad with your mod's less harsh weight offsets, but it is missing the new model rear cage mast option, and those new funnel models would be nice.  But whatever, low priority stuff.

Maybe wile your on your break I'll see if i can figure out some of this stuff myself lol.

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0.9.3 N.A.R. changelog:

Chinese Guns Rework Special Edition (part IV)

  • Updated to UAD 1.3.9Rx2
  • Chinese guns ready.*
  • Spanish big caliber guns ready.*
  • Late Russian guns ready (MK4; Mk5)
  • Improvements made to some American guns. 
  • 100% chance to become revelead after a shot if the ship is out of spotting range. Needs testing.
  • Modernized dreadnought I hull packages reworked for China and Spain.
  • Scaled down the "2nd gen Large Cage Mast II & I"
  • Added "2nd gen Large Cage Mast II & I", "Enhanced Sec Cage mast III" and "Large Cage Mast" to American "BC II" hull.

19kLoPa.jpg

*Most Chinese guns and late Spanish guns are a fantasy. Never existed. With this in mind, I took the liberty to create a specific design language for each of them. Something that would make them feel different from the others and at the same time interesting to look at. China is more about curve lines and sleek design, where Spain, is more about polygons, boxy look designs.

OcoSAPe.jpg

At this moment, only the early Russians guns and small Spanish guns are missing. I expect to have everything ready in the next days. After that, I will take a break from modding.

Edited by o Barão
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  • o Barão changed the title to "Naval Arms Race" mod overhaul. Alpha build 0.9.3 - Chinese Guns Rework Special Edition (part IV) - for UAD v1.3.9rx2

mk3 Chinese 5in gun, the dual looks like a single.

 

I like the use of those squished texas gun models for the American 7 and 8in, but I also  think their shape might better match cruiser main guns at mk4 than the longer barrel Texas gun model. perhaps use them on lower tier 9-11in guns as well.

it was interesting refitting all my ships in my american campaign for the 5in gun change, in some ways that outgoing model fit in tighter places than the 5/38 model, in others the lower height was a bigger help. And the single barrel, lots of additional nooks and crannies i could fit that in, change worked out great.

All my opponent's guns are low tier and much lower ranged than mine so no feedback on them opening fire revealing themselves yet.

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1 hour ago, Fangoriously said:

mk3 Chinese 5in gun, the dual looks like a single.

Fixed, thanks!👍

1 hour ago, Fangoriously said:

I like the use of those squished texas gun models for the American 7 and 8in, but I also  think their shape might better match cruiser main guns at mk4 than the longer barrel Texas gun model. perhaps use them on lower tier 9-11in guns as well.

Not possible. That 3D model is fake. Never existed. But is great for the American BB as 7" or 8" as possible short barrels option if ever would be used in real life.

 

What I am considering is swapping the mk2; mk3 for the mk4; mk5.  For the USA, BB secondaries 6", 7" and 8" guns. Will fit better the gun design language of the period.

 

The Americans cruisers, as all other guns in the rework, are using historical guns as a reference. That 3D model you are mentioning is a short barrel. Not possible.

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_8-55_mk9.php

 

W0LXvJN.jpg

I like it. :)

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12 minutes ago, Fangoriously said:

Where did you find a hull with just the single amidship case mate bulge? Just checked every predread and armored cruiser hull, only saw a double stack like fore and aft.

"cressy_hull_tall" without "var(middle_gun_b)"

Edited by o Barão
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