"Naval Arms Race" mod overhaul. BETA v11.1 - for UAD v1.5.1.3

[o Barão]

15 minutes ago, flaviohc16 said:

I have seen that you removed the ebility to put big barbettes on armoured cruisers: good.

 

but....but, if I place the 2nd smallest barbette, I can still then place the big ones and then have a small dreadnought

 

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1JJqpdD1YB83DVWqAvQj24gj-E_3uRt-3?usp=drive_link

It is a known game exploit. I can remove that barbette from those ships to fix the issue, but why bothered? It is a single player game, so not a big deal.

[basedana]

Does anyone have a way to play Spain in legendary, because I have restarted about 5 times, the furthest I got was 1935 but my saved crashed. Spain is the most rage inducing, aneurism giving nation, because you have no shipyard capacity and your economy is so trash that you can't get a sizeable fleet with decent ships because you go broke. God Spain really is Spain without the S. 

 

 

[flaviohc16]

9 hours ago, o Barão said:

It is a known game exploit. I can remove that barbette from those ships to fix the issue, but why bothered? It is a single player game, so not a big deal.

Because the tentation is strong 🤣🤣🤣

 

4 hours ago, basedana said:

Does anyone have a way to play Spain in legendary, because I have restarted about 5 times, the furthest I got was 1935 but my saved crashed. Spain is the most rage inducing, aneurism giving nation, because you have no shipyard capacity and your economy is so trash that you can't get a sizeable fleet with decent ships because you go broke. God Spain really is Spain without the S. 

Well, I would say that you are playing at the max difficulty with one of the worst nation, nation that even IRL in the timeline the games cover (1890-1965) was basically "afk to the world stage to control his own shit'.

 

Like you choose something with a high failure rate.

[flaviohc16]

12 minutes ago, flaviohc16 said:

 

Also, and I know we talked about it before, I would try to change the overpen mechanic a bit, because right now it's world of overpens, sometimes even with HE. I know that the armour threshold is 2, so that if my shells penetrate more than double the armour they encounter, the overpen. But I would say this is quite limiting, especially because you might have 16 inch shells that overpen 6" of armour ,(WW2 CA belt armour) and you can't do anything about it. 

 

It's even more egregious with HE, were if you don't have an he with 0,1" of pen TBs or dds become quite resistenti to overpen. Same for light cruiser.

 

 

I would try to increase this parameter to 3 for AP and 4/5 for HE and test how it goes.

 

Basically, I would love to have a game where my hit are way more impactful and less 80-90% overpen and 10% pen that we have right now.

 

I would also get then reducing a bit more the accuracy so that battles don't end in a slugfest in 30 in game minutes.

Edited April 4 by flaviohc16

[o Barão]

1 hour ago, flaviohc16 said:

...especially because you might have 16 inch shells that overpen 6" of armour ,(WW2 CA belt armour) and you can't do anything about it.

You can start by choosing the right shell for the job and not picking capped shells all the time. Also, you are ignoring the distance factor, since both are related. Keep your distance if you don't want to see so many overpens.

 

So as you can see, you can do a lot to improve. But what you really want is capped shells that work all the time against all the targets. To be the easy choice for all guns, all situations, all targets. No, no, no...

 

This being said, I'm currently playing a 1940 campaign, and I tend to agree with many things you are saying. Overpens I can't say atm if I am going to change them, because as I said, in many times it is more related to a player that don't understand the game mechanics then the game fault to simulate real life ballistics. But I will research more about this to see if I can find some precious information.

 

• I already reworked the gun damage. TBs and DDs are incredibly weak around later years with the new explosives and the guns' accuracy being too high, so I rebalanced for all the ships.
• The accuracy is too good and too fast even with radar and spotter plane. The solution is IMO to nerf the long range accuracy bonus and a little the target accuracy speed. Even with the semi realistic accuracy, the bonus is so huge around 1930, that I get the feeling of a naval battle game with tech from the early 21st century.

[HMS Implosive]

I have another suggestion: would you consider replacing the british King George V style main battery turrets with this alternative model. For comparison, vanilla turret:

Alternative model:

The main difference being that the model I am suggesting doesn't stick out awkwardly from its barbette, unlike vanilla model.

The relevant models in the game files are:

- kgeorge_gun_380_x1

- kgeorge_gun_380_x2

- kgeorge_gun_380_x3

- richelieu_gun_b_380_x4

The last model, dispite its name, is kgeorge-style quad turret of this turret series, that the devs have somehow mislabelled.

[o Barão]

32 minutes ago, HMS Implosive said:

I have another suggestion: would you consider replacing the british King George V style main battery turrets with this alternative model. For comparison, vanilla turret:

Alternative model:

The main difference being that the model I am suggesting doesn't stick out awkwardly from its barbette, unlike vanilla model.

The relevant models in the game files are:

- kgeorge_gun_380_x1

- kgeorge_gun_380_x2

- kgeorge_gun_380_x3

- richelieu_gun_b_380_x4

The last model, dispite its name, is kgeorge-style quad turret of this turret series, that the devs have somehow mislabelled.

No because we are losing the secondary mount, if I am not mistaken.

 

However, there is an improvement that can be made.

kgeorge_gun_380_x1_b

kgeorge_gun_380_x2_b

kgeorge_gun_380_x3_c

By using the "b" version for x1 and x2 turrets, we get a better looking design.

I will implement this change for the next version.

 

EDIT:

As I thought. It loses the secondary mount and uses the big size for all guns barrels. No good.

Edited April 4 by o Barão

[HMS Implosive]

15 minutes ago, o Barão said:

No because we are losing the secondary mount, if I am not mistaken.

 

However, there is an improvement that can be made.

kgeorge_gun_380_x1_b

kgeorge_gun_380_x2_b

kgeorge_gun_380_x3_c

By using the "b" version for x1 and x2 turrets, we get a better looking design.

 

 

Yes, the series of turrets I proposed don't have the mounting for secondary gun on top, if you consider that more important feature than the way the turrets sits on its barbette/deck. Still, I am happy to hear you agree with me in the sense that you find the first two b-series turrets better looking than vanilla c-series 😊

[flaviohc16]

3 hours ago, o Barão said:

You can start by choosing the right shell for the job and not picking capped shells all the time. Also, you are ignoring the distance factor, since both are related. Keep your distance if you don't want to see so many overpens.

 

So as you can see, you can do a lot to improve. But what you really want is capped shells that work all the time against all the targets. To be the easy choice for all guns, all situations, all targets. No, no, no...

Since you explained to me a couple of months back how penetration/overpenetration worked, I always avoided using capped shells ( I use them only on dds/cl/ca if I want them to punch above their weight).

On 16" guns I actually always use standard or even semi-ballistic, with superheavy shells ( the shells that everyone was aiming for in the 1930s-40s), and as propellant RPC 12/38 and usually Dunnite as explosive because it gives me penetration without getting more flash fire chance.

In 1930, with  16/50 guns, with 110% armour scaling ( basically everything at the best possible) my guns overpen 6 inch of armour (more than 12 " of pen):

with mark 3 guns, standard ap: 25 kms

mark 3 with semi-ballistic ap: 10 km ( ok-ish)

mark 5, standard ap: 30kms

mark 5, semi-ballistic: 15km 

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1iMS371lN-LxQmQjWlKfWxRbcIp95gb5i?usp=drive_link (drive with the data and pictures)

And the semi ballistic ones makes penetrating even a paltry 12 " of armour of a modern bb complicated ( they are the values given above).

How would i change it?

1)give better overpen potential, like i said in my previous comment,

2)and give us more granularity in stepping down the Penetration values of AP:

RIgh now we have only 2 "steps down" for ap: SAP and Semi-ballistic, and they are quite brutal in their ap pen reduction (-30 % for semi ballistic and -45% for sap), meanwhile we have 3 steps up in penetration, and the latter 2 are very close and redundant (capped +25%, capped-ballistic 1 +31%, capped ballistic 2 +36%), I would add an in-between shell fuse between standard and semi-ballistic, with -15% pen, and you can reach this goal either by adding one slot or by shifting one block and deleting one of the capped-ballistic ( capped ballistic 1 i would say)

 

3 hours ago, o Barão said:

This being said, I'm currently playing a 1940 campaign, and I tend to agree with many things you are saying. Overpens I can't say atm if I am going to change them, because as I said, in many times it is more related to a player that don't understand the game mechanics then the game fault to simulate real life ballistics. But I will research more about this to see if I can find some precious information.

 

• I already reworked the gun damage. TBs and DDs are incredibly weak around later years with the new explosives and the guns' accuracy being too high, so I rebalanced for all the ships.

I agree, you made them quite fragile, maybe if you rework over pen mechanics, you might make overpen have even less damage than they do now: so you have less of them, but they also gives you less damage, so this will probably make dds more survivable.

3 hours ago, o Barão said:

• The accuracy is too good and too fast even with radar and spotter plane. The solution is IMO to nerf the long range accuracy bonus and a little the target accuracy speed. Even with the semi realistic accuracy, the bonus is so huge around 1930, that I get the feeling of a naval battle game with tech from the early 21st century.

I agree that in late game accuracy it's still too high, at 20 km range accuracy should never go above 10-12% on a moving target, as that was the accuracy of Iowa class BBs in Korea (1952-55)

[o Barão]

46 minutes ago, HMS Implosive said:

Yes, the series of turrets I proposed don't have the mounting for secondary gun on top, if you consider that more important feature than the way the turrets sits on its barbette/deck.

Oh, yes ofc. That gun model is more detailed and good-looking to see on a ship.

50 minutes ago, HMS Implosive said:

Still, I am happy to hear you agree with me in the sense that you find the first two b-series turrets better looking than vanilla c-series 😊

Strange, I must be having Alzheimer already in my mid 40's. I can't remember ever to talked about that with you in the past. But, if you like it, then it is good enough. 😁

 

 

 

[o Barão]

18 minutes ago, flaviohc16 said:

I always avoided using capped shells ( I use them only on dds/cl/ca if I want them to punch above their weight)

I had several battles yesterday, with 5 dds with capped shells II against a british CL, and it was a nightmare. Too much overpens. If it was against CA, would be much better, probably. There is no perfect solution, because the distance to target, armor thickness, gun pen values at those ranges, armor angle. All of them will create situations that are unique, for the most part, and we need to evaluate what we are seeing and adapt. But in the heat of the battle with many ships under our command, this is an impossible task to do all the time.

 

I have already tried to look info about overpenetration, and basically what I am getting is if the armor have enough resistance to arm the fuse, it is the fuse time x shell velocity x distance inside the ship that matters. No magical x2 overpen value. Now we have a shell fuse time ingame, but I have no idea how it works or if it works in the first place.

 

I am still running several tests to see where I can improve. As an example, I will try a crazy value, like x100 overpen, shooting AP against with a big caliber gun just to see if the fuse time makes any difference against a DD.

 

Atm, I can't add anything more about this without running more tests.

[o Barão]

@flaviohc16 look at this:

In the left bottom corner. This is with x100!!!

over_penetration_threshold,100,penetration threshold over armor to over-penetration

But we are still seeing over pen. Make sense? Only if the shell fuse timer is working. Good news right?

But look at the damage. 25k from a overpen.

 

Now I will run more tests, but it seems what you are asking is not exactly what you want.

[Azerostar]

I did some test about fuse time during patch 1.3.X.X of the vanilla game, shorter fuse time will decrease the overpenetration. Increase the over_penetration_threshold could take effect too.

With 100 over_penetration_threshold and still has overpen may because of the DD(is it a DD,or a TB?) in test has less armor than 12.7mm so over_penetration_min_armor was working.

[o Barão]

5 minutes ago, Azerostar said:

I did some test about fuse time during patch 1.3.X.X of the vanilla game, shorter fuse time will decrease the overpenetration. Increase the over_penetration_threshold could take effect too.

With 100 over_penetration_threshold and still has overpen may because of the DD(is it a DD,or a TB?) in test has less armor than 12.7mm so over_penetration_min_armor was working.

A TB, but the damage from overpen was insane. I will run more test so see what is the relation.

 

One thing interesting about the damage gun model in game.

armor_damage,0.16,damage multiplier due to partial penetration,0.33,,,,,,

over_penetration,0.085,damage multiplier due to over-penetration,0.33,,,,,,

So the game is telling me that what I am seeing in the image is better than to have a shell that failed to penetrate the armor? 🤔

Edited April 4 by o Barão

[flaviohc16]

23 minutes ago, o Barão said:

Atm, I can't add anything more about this without running more tests.

Well, you can add the "in between" ap shell fuze, also,  you can make all the fuzes more linear:

only shifting the fuses, and keeping the 6 values:

SAP: -45% pen

Semi ballistic: -30%

in between (call it how you like) -15%

standard: 0

capped: +15%

capped ballistic +30% pen

8 minutes ago, o Barão said:

but look at the damage. 25k from a overpen.

Now I will run more tests, but it seems what you are asking is not exactly what you want.

Yea, ofc I don't want overpen to do more damage than pen, I actually want overpen to do less damage, but having less of them overall.

I know what I want ( and probably you know it too) but I don't know how to reach it, that's why I'm asking

[flaviohc16]

3 minutes ago, o Barão said:

A TB, but the damage from overpen was insane. I will run more test so see what is the relation.

 

One thing interesting about the damage gun model in game.

armor_damage,0.16,damage multiplier due to partial penetration,0.33,,,,,,

over_penetration,0.085,damage multiplier due to over-penetration,0.33,,,,,,

So the game is telling me that what I am seeing in the image is better than to have a shell that failed to penetrate the armor? 🤔

i think that "partial pen" is more when the shells are between 2 layers of armour ( like the 1st than 2nd belt in the citadel)?

but I don't know what I'm talking about

[Azerostar]

In my opinion, less or more overpenetration and the damage from it will not decided the survivable of the DDs.

If they shooted by a big caliber gun,the big caliber overpenetration or penetration will cause extremely high damage, but it will not cut down enough structure as the damage seems to be. They will more likely to sink because of fire or flooding, for this situation will always cause huge fire on them.

 

[basedana]

I firmly believe that HE shells should be unable to overpen, specially high capacity and incendiary. I hate when a BB shoots a merchant with an HE (that HE is HC) and then overpens.

[o Barão]

2 minutes ago, basedana said:

I firmly believe that HE shells should be unable to overpen, specially high capacity and incendiary. I hate when a BB shoots a merchant with an HE (that HE is HC) and then overpens.

Then you have a misconception what are HE shells. You got that idea from playing wows, right?

 

Incendiary shells will never overpen. At least, they are not supposed to do, and I never saw that in game.

[o Barão]

56 minutes ago, Azerostar said:

In my opinion, less or more overpenetration and the damage from it will not decided the survivable of the DDs.

If they shooted by a big caliber gun,the big caliber overpenetration or penetration will cause extremely high damage, but it will not cut down enough structure as the damage seems to be. They will more likely to sink because of fire or flooding, for this situation will always cause huge fire on them.

 

Increasing the overpen threshold will be in fact making the life for DDs more miserable.

But I am seeing a much important thing to do. A nightmare. To fix the issue with the accuracy, I will need to edit the aiming, and long range accuracy from all towers in game.

Around 1400 entries or 1500. Something like that. Yeah... 🙁

 

Well, I don't know if I have the guts or if I am crazy enough to do that.

 

1 hour ago, flaviohc16 said:

i think that "partial pen" is more when the shells are between 2 layers of armour ( like the 1st than 2nd belt in the citadel)?

but I don't know what I'm talking about

It is not.

"Partial Penetration - The forward half of the shell penetrates the armor while the rear half is rejected; or, for hits over 45° obliquity, the nose and upper body are rejected while the broken lower body penetrates - only if the shell breaks, of course, but most will at such a high obliquity below the Naval Limit."

http://www.navweaps.com/index_nathan/Penetration_index.php

[basedana]

7 hours ago, o Barão said:

Then you have a misconception what are HE shells. You got that idea from playing wows, right?

No not really, I always assumed that HE shells should explode when hitting a hard surface AKA the hull of a merchant ship, specially if that shell is on the less pen more damage side of things. Also I find it annoying that high capacity shells overpen merchants.

Edited April 4 by basedana

[Pappystein]

8 hours ago, basedana said:

I firmly believe that HE shells should be unable to overpen, specially high capacity and incendiary. I hate when a BB shoots a merchant with an HE (that HE is HC) and then overpens.

Remember Mass*Velocity Squared,  By that, so long as there is enough strength in the shell casing to withstand the armor/deck/bulkhead strength, it will over-pen.   EG, an US 16"/50cal HC Shell has more than enough wall-thickness, to survive mostly intact going through a WWII era destroyer Escort/sloop etc.   With how little metal a Tin-can has even a HC shell is an AP shell for purposes of penetration with this setup.   Conversely, a typical 4" 45 or 50 caliber weapon of WWII, would have a hard time over-penning in the same situation.   It is an interesting dichotomy, where Penetration vs size impacts on a given amount of armor or just hull steel.  

[King_Tiger_II]

3 hours ago, basedana said:

No not really, I always assumed that HE shells should explode when hitting a hard surface AKA the hull of a merchant ship, specially if that shell is on the less pen more damage side of things. Also I find it annoying that high capacity shells overpen merchants.

Most merchant ships are based off the Liberty type hull, a wooden ship. Now wood is not a option in armor so they always get 0mm of armor to make up for that. Other types of armor this replicates is non-cemented steel plating (non-military steel) where non-liberty style ships are made from, this lighter stuff is often minimal strength, enough for a ship to survive the ocean but not withstand anything else. This also means the steel is theoretically too soft to trigger some HE shell types, this is why HEI is often the best.

[SpardaSon21]

5 hours ago, King_Tiger_II said:

the Liberty type hull, a wooden ship

Are... you sure about that?

Only wood I'm seeing is scaffolding for the construction workers.

8 hours ago, Pappystein said:

Remember Mass*Velocity Squared,  By that, so long as there is enough strength in the shell casing to withstand the armor/deck/bulkhead strength, it will over-pen.   EG, an US 16"/50cal HC Shell has more than enough wall-thickness, to survive mostly intact going through a WWII era destroyer Escort/sloop etc.   With how little metal a Tin-can has even a HC shell is an AP shell for purposes of penetration with this setup.   Conversely, a typical 4" 45 or 50 caliber weapon of WWII, would have a hard time over-penning in the same situation.   It is an interesting dichotomy, where Penetration vs size impacts on a given amount of armor or just hull steel.  

The base fuses used for 16"/50 HC rounds had a delay of 0.01 seconds at most, so even at the muzzle with its 2,690 feet per second velocity you're looking at 26.9 feet of travel before detonation.  Fletchers were 39.5 feet at their widest.  Even when you factor in the time for the impact shockwave to travel to the rear of the shell and trigger the fuse the chances of an overpen with HC and a properly set base fuse are extremely small against destroyers at anything resembling combat range.  You'd pretty much need to hit the much narrower bow to have a chance of overpenning.  If you're using a nose fuse, the shell is going to detonate almost immediately after impact, even against thin plate, at which point a destroyer is screwed no matter where it gets hit.

 

For comparison, the base fuses used for AP shells were 0.035 seconds, or 87.5 feet at the barrel and at 20km/21,800 yards 60 feet, or probably enough to detonate inside of a Cleveland class and its 66 foot beam if it hits the armor belt and gets fused as a result, especially when you realize its coming in at an angle.  If the ship isn't flat on the chances of a successful internal detonation go up dramatically.

I don't know how fuse times are handled by the game but they could use a serious examination by @o Barão.

Edited April 5 by SpardaSon21

[o Barão]

8 minutes ago, SpardaSon21 said:

I don't know how fuse times are handled by the game but they could use a serious examination by @o Barão.

The only thing I can tell you, is that they are working. In my tests, I increased the overpenetration threshold by a crazy number and I still got overpens. This is good news. Now for me to work them, it is a complete different thing. I will need to study the different type of shells, to see how they are working, and to understand the fuse time mechanic to see if it needs, or it is possible to be improved.