Can we please have a fire the fickin torpedoes button?

[Prelude_to_Oblivion]

I am losing my mind on this, when my TB or DD is 200m away from the broadside enemy ship, they take their sweet time firing the torpedoes. But since they take their sweet time, the enemy ship has all the time in the world to turn away. I WANT A FIRE THE FICKING TORPEDOES BUTTON. It isn't a hard concept, I know in real life if a captain says fire torpedoes then the torpedoes will be fired, and if someone does not, they will either be court martialed for failure to follow a direct order or they will be hung as a traitor.

This isn't some extravagant concept I am asking for. I simply want the ability to fire the torpedo(s) when I deem it the best angle of attack. I am sick of sitting here smashing Shift+mouse button waiting minutes for these ships to do what they are supposed. I am sick of rage quitting due to blown opportunities. Program in a fire torpedoes button. Simple concept, now execute simple concept.

 

This falls into another broad concept, ships not doing what they are told to do. I detach all ships so they are independent and tell them to sail on a specific bearing to catch up to the enemy. Next thing you know and some of the ships are turning 180 degrees away. If I tell the ficking ships to sail in a direction then they need to do what the fick I tell them to do.

This concept is called control of units, it is used in 99% of war games. The commander says do this, and this is done. Why is it so hard for this to happen? If I want them to sail in a direction, they do so, If I say go this fast, they go this fast, if I say fire whatever armament, then the armament is fired.

 

Stop dicking around with me, I want to have control of these ships and not have them do stupid shit like blow an opportunity to attack (torpedoes), turn around 180 degrees or slow down to 0knts. This is stupid to not have them do what they are told. I am sick of screaming at my computer "DO WHAT YOU ARE FiCKING TOLD". 

SIMPLE CONCEPT:HAVE UNITS DO WHAT THEY ARE TOLD TO DO.

[The_Real_Hawkeye]

The problem with this specific, well, problem is, that the torpedo launcher don't track a target until you allow them to fire (i.e. as long as you set them to not launch, the launchers will face forward/aft.

When you reach a good position to launch, you allow them to launch, but the launchers aren't pointed at the target, so they start to turn towards it. This takes a bit of time and since, at least in the earlier campaigns, you are very close to the target, the angle changes very quickly (if you are _very_ close, faster than the launchers can turn) and you also leave that good position very quickly (sometimes the launchers can't reach a firing position at all)

Now, I have suggested (Suggestion Thread) to have both, guns and torpedo launcher track the assigned target, no matter if they are allowed to shoot or not (I mean, why would the crew _not_ track the target while waiting for the order to open fire?). So let's hope this gets fixed.

[falsetruth1988]

I agree we need a manual fire button for torpedos, maybe tying in crew level for responce time to the fire command or auto fire? 

All guns and tubes in arc range should also track designated targets even when on "off"( which should be renamed hold or hold fire "HF" BTW....hint hint devs) look at the artillery world, to track but not fire is either at my command or hold fire.

Also to the LOG please indicate which tubes are loaded and which ones are empty/loading.

 

Edited January 4, 2022 by falsetruth1988

[Littorio]

3 hours ago, thisgameisretarded said:

I am losing my mind on this, when my TB or DD is 200m away from the broadside enemy ship, they take their sweet time firing the torpedoes. But since they take their sweet time, the enemy ship has all the time in the world to turn away. I WANT A FIRE THE FICKING TORPEDOES BUTTON. It isn't a hard concept, I know in real life if a captain says fire torpedoes then the torpedoes will be fired, and if someone does not, they will either be court martialed for failure to follow a direct order or they will be hung as a traitor.

This isn't some extravagant concept I am asking for. I simply want the ability to fire the torpedo(s) when I deem it the best angle of attack. I am sick of sitting here smashing Shift+mouse button waiting minutes for these ships to do what they are supposed. I am sick of rage quitting due to blown opportunities. Program in a fire torpedoes button. Simple concept, now execute simple concept.

 

This falls into another broad concept, ships not doing what they are told to do. I detach all ships so they are independent and tell them to sail on a specific bearing to catch up to the enemy. Next thing you know and some of the ships are turning 180 degrees away. If I tell the ficking ships to sail in a direction then they need to do what the fick I tell them to do.

This concept is called control of units, it is used in 99% of war games. The commander says do this, and this is done. Why is it so hard for this to happen? If I want them to sail in a direction, they do so, If I say go this fast, they go this fast, if I say fire whatever armament, then the armament is fired.

 

Stop dicking around with me, I want to have control of these ships and not have them do stupid shit like blow an opportunity to attack (torpedoes), turn around 180 degrees or slow down to 0knts. This is stupid to not have them do what they are told. I am sick of screaming at my computer "DO WHAT YOU ARE FiCKING TOLD". 

SIMPLE CONCEPT:HAVE UNITS DO WHAT THEY ARE TOLD TO DO.

 

They won't implement something like that. It would require some kind of alternate UI and control interface to account for all possible angles of launch from a given vessel, for each respective vessel in turn. You couldn't just have a basic "fire torpedo button" as you say, because where is it launching, at 90degrees to the side? Which one, port or starboard? There would have to be some kind of UI toggle, like an alternate mouse mode to swivel to the angle you want. And even there there will still be a delay from launchers turning. And this isn't even getting into toggling multiple launchers. Do you want to fire from one, or two, or many? How many torps per salvo? From which combinations of launchers? It would be a little easier for underwater tubes since their angles are pretty limited, but there is still more to this than you seem to think.

Overall I think you just need to adjust your tactics. I don't seem to have all these torpedo issues. Just know where you are vessels are and be aware when you toggle OFF to the various levels of...riskiness of the torp shot.

 

2 hours ago, The_Real_Hawkeye said:

The problem with this specific, well, problem is, that the torpedo launcher don't track a target until you allow them to fire (i.e. as long as you set them to not launch, the launchers will face forward/aft.

When you reach a good position to launch, you allow them to launch, but the launchers aren't pointed at the target, so they start to turn towards it. This takes a bit of time and since, at least in the earlier campaigns, you are very close to the target, the angle changes very quickly (if you are _very_ close, faster than the launchers can turn) and you also leave that good position very quickly (sometimes the launchers can't reach a firing position at all)

Now, I have suggested (Suggestion Thread) to have both, guns and torpedo launcher track the assigned target, no matter if they are allowed to shoot or not (I mean, why would the crew _not_ track the target while waiting for the order to open fire?). So let's hope this gets fixed.

Precisely, even if all of what he wanted above was somehow done, the timeliness of it is still moot because of the locked position of the tubes and their lack of tracking. Personally, in the case of underwater tubes though, I think they almost track too much. I thought they were locked in place on a set, single angle, and yet I've seen some pretty oblique angle shots from underwater launchers before, certainly not clean 90degree ones.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Littorio

[akd]

4 hours ago, Littorio said:

 

They won't implement something like that. It would require some kind of alternate UI and control interface to account for all possible angles of launch from a given vessel, for each respective vessel in turn. You couldn't just have a basic "fire torpedo button" as you say, because where is it launching, at 90degrees to the side? Which one, port or starboard? There would have to be some kind of UI toggle, like an alternate mouse mode to swivel to the angle you want. And even there there will still be a delay from launchers turning. And this isn't even getting into toggling multiple launchers. Do you want to fire from one, or two, or many? How many torps per salvo? From which combinations of launchers? It would be a little easier for underwater tubes since their angles are pretty limited, but there is still more to this than you seem to think.

Overall I think you just need to adjust your tactics. I don't seem to have all these torpedo issues. Just know where you are vessels are and be aware when you toggle OFF to the various levels of...riskiness of the torp shot.

War on the Sea has a pretty good system for controlling torpedoes, without handing over finding a target solution to the player.  Most importantly, it gives you three options: FIRE (immediately turn launchers toward current target (solution) and fire; HOLD turn launchers to current target, but don't fire until FIRE command is issued (allows tracking target while solution builds); and CEASE which returns launchers to default position.  Otherwise you can select number of torpedoes to fire per launcher, spread for torpedoes and can activate and deactivate launchers individually.  You are shown the current solution % for the target calculated by the director.  Also no BS reloading deck launchers during battle (but as noted you can control how many are launched to keep some in reserve).

Quote

 

Precisely, even if all of what he wanted above was somehow done, the timeliness of it is still moot because of the locked position of the tubes and their lack of tracking. Personally, in the case of underwater tubes though, I think they almost track too much. I thought they were locked in place on a set, single angle, and yet I've seen some pretty oblique angle shots from underwater launchers before, certainly not clean 90degree ones.

some early underwater tubes actually were trainable using a water proof ball joint.  You can see the arc shaped track for setting deflection for the tube on floor of USS Oregon torpedo room:

After development of torpedo gyros, the desired angle could be set by gyro and the torpedo launched from a simpler fixed underwater tube.

Edited January 5, 2022 by akd

[Gregg]

6 hours ago, The_Real_Hawkeye said:

The problem with this specific, well, problem is, that the torpedo launcher don't track a target until you allow them to fire (i.e. as long as you set them to not launch, the launchers will face forward/aft.

When you reach a good position to launch, you allow them to launch, but the launchers aren't pointed at the target, so they start to turn towards it. This takes a bit of time and since, at least in the earlier campaigns, you are very close to the target, the angle changes very quickly (if you are _very_ close, faster than the launchers can turn) and you also leave that good position very quickly (sometimes the launchers can't reach a firing position at all)

Now, I have suggested (Suggestion Thread) to have both, guns and torpedo launcher track the assigned target, no matter if they are allowed to shoot or not (I mean, why would the crew _not_ track the target while waiting for the order to open fire?). So let's hope this gets fixed.

Totally agree!

[Littorio]

1 hour ago, akd said:

War on the Sea has a pretty good system for controlling torpedoes, without handing over finding a target solution to the player.  Most importantly, it gives you three options: FIRE (immediately turn launchers toward current target (solution) and fire; HOLD turn launchers to current target, but don't fire until FIRE command is issued (allows tracking target while solution builds); and CEASE which returns launchers to default position.  Otherwise you can select number of torpedoes to fire per launcher, spread for torpedoes and can activate and deactivate launchers individually.  You are shown the current solution % for the target calculated by the director.  Also no BS reloading deck launchers during battle (but as noted you can control how many are launched to keep some in reserve).

some early underwater tubes actually were trainable using a water proof ball joint.  You can see the arc shaped track for setting deflection for the tube on floor of USS Oregon torpedo room:

After development of torpedo gyros, the desired angle could be set by gyro and the torpedo launched from a simpler fixed underwater tube.

Ah yes, training is a must. They need to turn regardless and track. I just don't know if the devs would feel comfortable adding three+ more buttons to the already somewhat cluttered UI, barring a whole redesign. Personally, I don't yet see a huge issue with torpedo launches as the game is, and not having direct control over them is in keeping with not having direct control of individual gun mounts. Now if something changes, we can revisit this, but short of tracking targets, I don't see the huge problem here myself. Not saying that system isn't plausible, but from what I have seen of War on the Sea (which I do not own), I'm not sure that fits here.

I did not know about the ball joints! Very interesting!

Edited January 5, 2022 by Littorio

[UnleashtheKraken]

11 hours ago, Littorio said:

Ah yes, training is a must. They need to turn regardless and track. I just don't know if the devs would feel comfortable adding three+ more buttons to the already somewhat cluttered UI, barring a whole redesign. Personally, I don't yet see a huge issue with torpedo launches as the game is, and not having direct control over them is in keeping with not having direct control of individual gun mounts. Now if something changes, we can revisit this, but short of tracking targets, I don't see the huge problem here myself. Not saying that system isn't plausible, but from what I have seen of War on the Sea (which I do not own), I'm not sure that fits here.

I did not know about the ball joints! Very interesting!

I humbly submit that the UI needs a very large redesign, but not before more game concepts are nailed down so they know what the UI is going to do.  I also want a 'point your weapon but hold fire' setting for torps.  Edit:  Even for targets that are out of range, they should track.  So they are ready for launch when needed.

Edited January 5, 2022 by UnleashtheKraken

[Littorio]

3 hours ago, UnleashtheKraken said:

I humbly submit that the UI needs a very large redesign, but not before more game concepts are nailed down so they know what the UI is going to do.  I also want a 'point your weapon but hold fire' setting for torps.  Edit:  Even for targets that are out of range, they should track.  So they are ready for launch when needed.

Well I agree that they need to add more game concepts first. Otherwise a UI redo is pointless now, and will just need to be done again later.

[UnleashtheKraken]

17 minutes ago, Littorio said:

Well I agree that they need to add more game concepts first. Otherwise a UI redo is pointless now, and will just need to be done again later.

Exactly.  Get everything you want to show and have available in the UI first.  Then work out something user friendly, well laid out, and as intuitive as you can make it.  No dumbing down, should be a key point.  This is supposed to be a more hardcore side of the simulator genre, so more options, more player freedom.

I thought of more useful torp settings.  Borrowing directly from World of Warships, because they occasionally get something right, different launch settings for torps.  Ripple fire, wide spread, narrow spread, should all be launch options.  Also maybe crews should be able to predict turns, if an in-close target is in a hard turn, with the accuracy going up with crew level of course.

I'm undecided on the 'fire torpedoes now' button option.  On the one hand, I do see what P_1 is on about, I've had situation where the launchers are aimed, the target is at .3 km, there's no friendly on the path of the torps or anywhere close, and they're just sitting there, not launching.  I want to smack them upside the head with one of the torpedoes they're NOT LAUNCHING.

On the other hand, this game is not supposed to be down to the level of WoWs or WT, commanding an individual vessel down to the level of when to shoot, when to fire torps. You issue commands, the ships carry them out.

On the other other hand, if we have the 'point but don't shoot' setting, and we can then flip to 'aggressive fire' mode for the launchers, is that not, in effect, a fire zee torps button?  (except that it's not, because for whatever reason they can still decide not to launch).  Still, in cases where it does work, that would, in effect, be the same thing.  I think I come down to agreeing with P_1 here on the subject, but not his tone.  Or else fix whatever's causing a ship to NOT fire under aggressive mode.

[akd]

26 minutes ago, UnleashtheKraken said:

I'm undecided on the 'fire torpedoes now' button option.  On the one hand, I do see what P_1 is on about, I've had situation where the launchers are aimed, the target is at .3 km, there's no friendly on the path of the torps or anywhere close, and they're just sitting there, not launching.  I want to smack them upside the head with one of the torpedoes they're NOT LAUNCHING.

 

I strongly suspect that what is happening in these circumstances is the launcher constantly trying to aim for a new “correct” solution (even if there is basically no incorrect solution at these ranges), but the short ranges leading to relative motion that the launcher rotation can’t keep up with.

[Captain Meow]

I usually have torpedoes switched off until when I really want to use them. (Talking about underwater tubes of predreadnought ships here)
Then the enemy is within the torpedo circle close to it's edge, I get my ship into position & select "aggressive" for torpedoes but... nothing happens! Because:
1) enemy ship is close to or on the torpedo circle's edge! (this should be fixed)
2) there's no indicator the torpedo is either still loading in that certain tube or that certain tube has 0 torpedoes while it still shows I have 3 on board... SOMEWHERE! (should be also fixed with implementation of indicator which tube has or doesn't have a torpedo)

However, as I have torpedoes initially off, then I'm in position to finally use underwater tubes & enemy is close enough, I select "aggressive" but even if enemy is within the tube's arc of fire - there's still some delay before the torpedo is fired. I would guess it's done on purpose to indicate time for tilting the tube & preparing it for launch once the order is to use torpedoes. Therefore, I think the "fire torpedo" button isn't needed because in this game you give orders than operating the ship's equipment.  Otherwise an option to get at the gun, aim & shoot where you want will be also needed.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Captain Meow

[UnleashtheKraken]

1 minute ago, akd said:

I strongly suspect that what is happening in these circumstances is the launcher constantly trying to aim for a new “correct” solution (even if there is basically no incorrect solution at these ranges), but the short ranges leading to relative motion that the launcher rotation can’t keep up with.

Interesting possibility.  I've seen it fail to launch against broadside targets at close, that weren't maneuvering, the launchers were pointed, etc.

There's definitely SOMETHING going on, I think it's in the 'fire zee torpedo' programming logic.

[Dman1791]

On 1/5/2022 at 2:55 PM, Captain Meow said:

I usually have torpedos switched off until when I really want to use them. (Talking about underwater tubes of predreadnought ships here)
Then the enemy is within the torpedo circle close to it's edge, I get my ship into position & select "aggressive" for torpedos but... nothing happens! Because:
1) enemy ship is close to or on the torpedo edge circle! (this should be fixed)
2) there's no indicator the torpedo is either still loading in that certain tube or that certain tube has 0 torpedos while it still shows I have 3 on board... SOMEWHERE! (should be also fixed with implementation of indicator which tube has or doesn't have a torpedo)

However, as I have torpedos initially off, then I'm in position to finally use underwater tubes & enemy is close enough, I select "aggressive" but even if enemy is within the tube's arc of fire - there's still some delay before the torpedo is fired. I would guess it's done on purpose to indicate time for tilting the tube & preparing it for launch once the order is to use torpedos. Therefore, I think the "fire torpedo" button isn't needed because in this game you give orders than operating the ship's equipment.  Otherwise an option to get at the gun, aim & shoot where you want will be also needed.

One thing to keep in mind is that rather than the target ship being in range, it is the solution that needs to be in range. It doesn't matter if the ship is within the circle if the point you're aiming at is far outside of it.