A question on how speed will be represented in the campaign

[ThatOneBounced]

So If i remember correctly, the main map will be using a grid  system. First thing that comes to mind is Atlantic fleet's main campaign. The issue i find with this is when designing cruisers like ones meant to out run and ship they can't outgun or outgun and ship that they cant outrun. if it's a turn based grid system that could be nulled. For example lets say a hostile raiding squadron  comprised of fast cruisers are raiding convoys. Would it be beneficial to build battle cruisers who are supposed to respond quickly (but because its a grid system) or would it take the same time for a battleship to move to intercept because it has to move on a per turn basis. in real life the Renown and Dunkirk were sent to hunt down the Graf Spee because thats what they were designed to do  (hunt down cruisers). So my question is how would this be represented on a grid system like the one planned?

[madham82]

Someone posted in another thread about the map and brought up the idea of using Total War's setup. This could work since faster ships would have a greater range per turn than a slower. Fleets range of movement would be based on their slowest ship, so you could detach BCs from a combined fleet to chase down faster ships. One improvement I can think of Total War's design is prevent ships from constantly being able to retreat after losing a battle. That was one thing that annoyed me in those games.  

[Shaftoe]

You are making a mistake. Speed does not determine range - only the ability to arrive in mission area reasonably quickly, and intercept the target. Range is determined by a combination of onboard fuel, crew accomodations, supplies, etc. And if your ship will be traveling at full or even flank speed all the time, it's going to run out of fuel very quickly, thus drastically decreasing its own range. If you want to enjoy the max range, you need to build a ship with high enough economical speed.

Strategic map mode must offer player several options to set travel speed for their ships (slow, economical, fast), automatically calculate how it affects the ship's range and visualize it on the map itself. Additionally, it needs to clearly show amount of ship's fuel before move order is issued, and project amount it will have after the movement is complete. 

Ideally, players should be able to chart long routs with many waypoints, each of which needs to have detailed information on estimated time of arrival (that would depend on chosen speed setting) and the amount of fuel the ship will have upon arrival.  

Edited March 29, 2020 by Shaftoe

[ThatOneBounced]

3 hours ago, Shaftoe said:

You are making a mistake. Speed does not determine range - only the ability to arrive in mission area reasonably quickly, and intercept the target. Range is determined by a combination of onboard fuel, crew accomodations, supplies, etc. And if your ship will be traveling at full or even flank speed all the time, it's going to run out of fuel very quickly, thus drastically decreasing its own range. If you want to enjoy the max range, you need to build a ship with high enough economical speed.

Strategic map mode must offer player several options to set travel speed for their ships (slow, economical, fast), automatically calculate how it affects the ship's range and visualize it on the map itself. Additionally, it needs to clearly show amount of ship's fuel before move order is issued, and project amount it will have after the movement is complete. 

Ideally, players should be able to chart long routs with many waypoints, each of which needs to have detailed information on estimated time of arrival (that would depend on chosen speed setting) and the amount of fuel the ship will have upon arrival.  

dont believe you understood what he was trying to say, 

 

5 hours ago, madham82 said:

Someone posted in another thread about the map and brought up the idea of using Total War's setup. This could work since faster ships would have a greater range per turn than a slower. Fleets range of movement would be based on their slowest ship, so you could detach BCs from a combined fleet to chase down faster ships. One improvement I can think of Total War's design is prevent ships from constantly being able to retreat after losing a battle. That was one thing that annoyed me in those games.  

Because the game is proposed to have a grid system, what the above says is that the ships would have a set distance they can travel per turn. Lets say you have a slow battleship. it can only move 1 grid square per turn (or its "range" per turn) on the other end, there is a Battlecruiser that, due to its speed, can move 3 grid squares per turn. when he is referring to range he is referring to the distance it can move per turn not the farthest distance a ship can go before needing to be refueled

[madham82]

3 hours ago, Shaftoe said:

You are making a mistake. Speed does not determine range - only the ability to arrive in mission area reasonably quickly, and intercept the target. Range is determined by a combination of onboard fuel, crew accomodations, supplies, etc. And if your ship will be traveling at full or even flank speed all the time, it's going to run out of fuel very quickly, thus drastically decreasing its own range. If you want to enjoy the max range, you need to build a ship with high enough economical speed.

Strategic map mode must offer player several options to set travel speed for their ships (slow, economical, fast), automatically calculate how it affects the ship's range and visualize it on the map itself. Additionally, it needs to clearly show amount of ship's fuel before move order is issued, and project amount it will have after the movement is complete. 

Ideally, players should be able to chart long routs with many waypoints, each of which needs to have detailed information on estimated time of arrival (that would depend on chosen speed setting) and the amount of fuel the ship will have upon arrival.  

Good point, something that was not done with Total War's take. But speed does play a factor in range (like in your 3rd sentence), we were just simplifying it too much. In most cases ships with higher speed capabilities will be able to cruise (economically) father, but then the other factors you mention determine how far you are going at that speed. 

[madham82]

 

5 minutes ago, ThatOneBounced said:

dont believe you understood what he was trying to say, 

 

Because the game is proposed to have a grid system, what the above says is that the ships would have a set distance they can travel per turn. Lets say you have a slow battleship. it can only move 1 grid square per turn (or its "range" per turn) on the other end, there is a Battlecruiser that, due to its speed, can move 3 grid squares per turn. when he is referring to range he is referring to the distance it can move per turn not the farthest distance a ship can go before needing to be refueled

If they are truly are using a grid system, then range will only impact how many turns they can move before refueling. Speed would like only impact the number of grid squares they can move in a turn. 

[nimbalo500]

2 minutes ago, madham82 said:

 

If they are truly are using a grid system, then range will only impact how many turns they can move before refueling. Speed would like only impact the number of grid squares they can move in a turn. 

Exactly what they are saying, the faster the ship the more tiles in a turn they can move.

[GUTB]

Is there even going to be a campaign mode at this point? Things appear to be moving really slow. I wonder if they've already released to the game and just called it an alpha.

[ThatOneBounced]

22 minutes ago, GUTB said:

Is there even going to be a campaign mode at this point? Things appear to be moving really slow. I wonder if they've already released to the game and just called it an alpha.

Yes there will be, all these pieces we have at the moment are to create a foundation to work off of. I would definitely not call what we have a complete package by any means. The gameplay as of right now is 100% not ready to be fleshed out into a full campaign. The current combat, while showing great promise, is not acceptable because of exploits like HE spam  and the parts themselves are lackluster and limited. Not a tremendous amount of freedom of choice when creating ships. I am completely fine with them fleshing out systems (and squashing bugs) at a steady pace so that they can divert more resources into campaign functionality and only have to make minor adjustments to core game play every now and then. Game isnt even early access yet (probably waiting to have a very early version of the campaign before deciding to call it a beta)

[disc]

I think it is important that if you choose to move at max speed, you start running out of fuel quick. Fuel consumption goes up more-or-less exponentially with speed. @Shaftoe brings up the important point of cruising speed.

There are other issues. For example, reciprocating steam engines don't deal well if pushed to max power 24/7. Turbines are inefficient at lower powers, so we see dedicated cruising sets. There was impetus for extra fuel stowage in US submarines, for example, because extra fuel allows a faster cruise speed and proportionally more time at the patrol destination -- even though the "extra range" was not necessary itself. High-powered Diesels were desirable partially because they had to have their bugs ironed out, so they would probably be more reliable at cruising speed.