mod J & P Rebalance Mod by JonnyH13 and Pandakraut 05/06/2023 1.28.4

[Minas Moth]

@sirwaldi well it wasn't all that easy... But it is easier than playing historically and trying to defend around the West Woods, Dunker Church and Cornfield. What I did was i pushed with my starting troops North, towards the enemy and positioned my troops in the woods just North of the Cornfield where the farm is and stretched the line towards the east (there are good woods there). I have sent snipers to the west to hit flanking shots into incoming enemy brigades. Supported my troops with artillery, cleared enemy artillery with my west snipers and slowly rolled up my units from east towards the west in order to completely encircle the enemies units...When your and enemies reinforcements arrive you can hold great position from east to west in the woods there... When Sunken Road phase opens up send most of your troops north with some 4 or 5 brigades with some artillery support guarding the bridge east of Sunken road... When enemy forces start crossing the bridge they'll get straight into your infantry and guns and are easily dealt with... After that it is all about mopping up the enemy forces over the Antietam creek...

Yes I play this campaign on Major General Difficulty.

One very important thing is to invest in good artillery and in Withworths with Telescopic sights... there are also a lot of good Youtube videos with strategies for Antietam Battle.

And this one was battle of Fredericksburg:

Edited April 15, 2019 by Minas Moth

[BCH]

I have now played the current version of the Rebalance Mod up to the start of Cold Harbor as the Union at the BG difficulty.

 

My observations:

There were moments in each battle that required micro-management of the Union brigades to stop a CSA push that would have turned the battle into a loss.

Once that major CSA tactical threat was neutralized, winning the battle amounted to just using common sense tactics.

My brigade organization strategy:

All brigades (except one of the initial brigades from the Phillipi Battle) have the first perk as speed; this includes Skirmishers, Artillery and Cavalry. My point of view is that if you can not get a brigade quickly into battle and/or quickly reposition it during a battle, you have handicapped yourself.

I limited Infantry to 1,200 per brigade with the exception of a few new brigades armed with the lower level muskets etc. Some of those brigades numbered 1,300.

Skirmishers and Cavalry were limited to 500

Artillery was limited to 14 ( I aggressively use artillery and expect to lose a few guns, any inefficiency at 14 goes away after a few losses). I have an average of 1.5 batteries per division, which when forming a line of Infantry and Skirmishers,  3 brigades are always backed up by 1 battery as a minimum with over lapping fire from  the battery or batteries backing up the next 3 brigades in the line. I micro-manage the artillery batteries to provide the most effective fire.

Incidentally, early in the campaign CSA cavalry charged what the AI apparently perceived to be a very isolated and low morale brigade of skirmishers; what AI did not see were the two batteries of howitzers in the woods, the skirmishers retreated back to the howitzers and the CSA cavalry chasing them took a volley of canister at very close range...  all those shotguns are now used by a special Union cavalry unit. I am still using batteries of howitzers at this stage of the campaign, usually keeping a pair of them together.

Unless there is a critical tactical must do situation; I use brigades that are close to getting their next star, first in a battle; and use the top starred brigades to back the line.

Skirmishers scout forward of the lines, protect flanks, and those with long range (500 range) weapons hunt down CSA artillery when practical.

Cavalry is first used for scouting, second for harassment, and thirdly for administering a 'coup de grace'. I usually work my cavalry in pairs, one brigade as mounted infantry and the other brigade as assault cavalry (sabre and pistols). I try not to engage the enemy with a single cavalry brigade unless absolutely necessary. Cavalry now seems to be able to always out run the enemy infantry and skirmishers.

Apparent AI shortcomings:

Artillery brigades are too large; this makes them vulnerable to massive counter battery fire.

Skirmisher units do not seem 'to see' artillery batteries backing the line they are charging. Half the time they are annihilated by a volley of canister.

AI does not handle having a flank broken; most of the time they do not 'refuse the line' , which allows the entire AI line of battle to be rolled up. Not sure the mod can do anything about this.

AI is unable to 'retreat' off the map (or at least it seems that way); this allows for almost complete destruction of the AI forces when the battle is played to the time limit.

 

Overall, on the BG level, the battles have a more realistic feel in that you can mostly approximate the historical strategies for each battle (although for some of them the  'historical strategy' will result in disaster for your side.

 

[pandakraut]

11 minutes ago, BCH said:

Artillery brigades are too large; this makes them vulnerable to massive counter battery fire.

Can you comment on this one a bit more? Even at 50 guns you have a maximum of 5(?) cannon sprites so the units don't take up much more space than normal.

12 minutes ago, BCH said:

Skirmisher units do not seem 'to see' artillery batteries backing the line they are charging. Half the time they are annihilated by a volley of canister.

Skirmisher units melee power is probably a bit high at the moment. This can probably get adjusted but will have to see.

13 minutes ago, BCH said:

AI does not handle having a flank broken; most of the time they do not 'refuse the line' , which allows the entire AI line of battle to be rolled up.

While I generally agree, I do think this really varies by battle. The defensive battles where the AI has to occupy fortifications seems to be where this is the biggest issue though. Probably not much we can do about it other than give the AI additional brigades as a band aid.

[pandakraut]

15 minutes ago, BCH said:

AI is unable to 'retreat' off the map (or at least it seems that way); this allows for almost complete destruction of the AI forces when the battle is played to the time limit.

We're looking at some changes that both emulate the AI being able to retreat off the map and make it harder to wipe out entire armies. Though this will still probably be possible as we want to keep the extended timers.

Some other changes are coming that likely that will make it a little less overwhelming for the AI if their army gets wiped out every time.

[Minas Moth]

When good isn't good enough... 😕

That Washington battle is really pain in the ass

 

[Minas Moth]

On a totaly different matter

@pandakraut it might be good thing to nerf the perks a bit... I personally don't mind but look at those stats... My snipers and single battery of 12 guns killed and entire Army of the Potomac two times over. lol lol lol

[pandakraut]

44 minutes ago, Minas Moth said:

That Washington battle is really pain in the ass

Those are MG numbers not Legendary right? They are very close to the totals I faced on Legendary in the base game so I'm interested to see what they look like in the Mod. 

That battle is a giant pain, even in the base game. I just got through it and put up a video for day 1 if you want to compare tactics. It'll be a bit different since it's not the Rebalance mod, but the basics should remain similar.

8 minutes ago, Minas Moth said:

it might be good thing to nerf the perks a bit... I personally don't mind but look at those stats... My snipers and single battery of 12 guns killed and entire Army of the Potomac two times over. lol lol lol

Yeah, there are some issues with perk stacking currently. Making slow progress on the next major release.

[Minas Moth]

@pandakraut Yes it is MG campaign... although I think I broke the AI half way through it... AI's recruit pool never showed more than 48-53 k soldiers available... And it made a lot of battles clean wipe outs... 

However, I did really good in all battles throught the campaign, and I think if I split the elites from my Elite II Corps Ill be fine... When i took the Northern forts (Fort Stevens etc) I wiped out entire Federal Army. When I defended those forts with my II Corps I wiped them out again... So its a matter of redistributing my forces across the army better to make it work.

[pandakraut]

12 minutes ago, Minas Moth said:

However, I did really good in all battles throught the campaign, and I think if I split the elites from my Elite II Corps Ill be fine... When i took the Northern forts (Fort Stevens etc) I wiped out entire Federal Army. When I defended those forts with my II Corps I wiped them out again... So its a matter of redistributing my forces across the army better to make it work.

If you're worried about casualties on day 1, you can skip full clearing. I'm pretty sure that none of the day 1 units return on day 2 so as long as you garrison the forts you can ignore a lot of the units.

[Minas Moth]

@pandakraut yeah... but my crappy last two Corps have no chance of breaking the defenses on the second phase, let alone take Washington, and sweeping down with my elite Corps I can take those last two forts and the city with no problems... its the Counterattack stage at the city of Washington that is giving me problems, everything else I have managed without any trouble whatsoever.

And I am facing like 220k mostly star 2 and 3 units there lol

 

Edited April 17, 2019 by Minas Moth

[BCH]

1 hour ago, pandakraut said:

Can you comment on this one a bit more? Even at 50 guns you have a maximum of 5(?) cannon sprites so the units don't take up much more space than normal. 

sure thing.

 

It is not the size of the sprites; it is a large single unit that has a set time to fire and reload. It can only engage one of my brigades at a time.

Since I keep my artillery batteries limited to 14 guns; I bring more artillery brigades total to almost any given battle. The total number of guns might be almost equal between the sides; but I am able to focus fire with multiple artillery brigades on the extremely large AI brigades.

As a recent example, a CSA artillery brigade showed as a 635 man battery; it was doing significant damage to one of my 3 star brigades holding a crucial point. I backed my brigade back a bit and brought 5 of my artillery brigades to bear on the 635 CSA battery. It did not take long for AI to withdraw the CSA battery (now below half strength). It was completely destroyed  5 minutes later by a pair of cavalry brigades and a long range skirmisher unit  which were waiting to flank it when it tried to re-engage.

[pandakraut]

6 minutes ago, BCH said:

It is not the size of the sprites; it is a large single unit that has a set time to fire and reload. It can only engage one of my brigades at a time.

So one option is forcing larger units to split into smaller ones like the Surrender mod does. The issue I see with this is that now you're facing 3 200 man units each of which your 5 artillery units can destroy very quickly.

The real issue is that the AI just doesn't really concentrate or respond to counterbattery at all. We could make the artillery units more vulnerable to morale damage, but that also lets you get close and rout them quickly and keep them routing. I have some changes in the works that will make the AI more likely to try and shoot at any artillery units that are visible so that should at least make it a bit harder to just wipe their artillery out.

[BCH]

1 hour ago, pandakraut said:

Skirmisher units melee power is probably a bit high at the moment. This can probably get adjusted but will have to see.

If AI skirmisher melee power is tied to charging, then yes it most likely needs adjusting to reduce AI's suicidal charges.

Although, based upon my recent reading of Avery Harris' Civil War Journal (his first hand account of the 143rd PA Inf. Regiment from formation to mustering out), those foolish charges against a gun battery did happen, especially early in the war. That journal and "Stone Brigade and the Fight for the Mcpherson Farm" give great insight on how these civil war battles were fought down at a regimental and brigade level.

 

Just as a historical note, the 143rd PA Inf Regt. was outfitted with new British Enfields (1853 pattern) at the start of their service in late 1862 at Camp Curtin, Harrisburg PA before being sent to Washington, D.C. in January of 63' . It is believed that this particular allotment of weapons were from a group seized from a CSA blockade runner. I do not have the exact quote at hand, but paraphrased 'they  (143rd) found them to be a bit heavy, but very accurate'. A great, great, great, uncle served in the 143rd from the beginning to the end. I am currently tracking down any and all accounts of the 143rd.

[BCH]

39 minutes ago, pandakraut said:

So one option is forcing larger units to split into smaller ones like the Surrender mod does. The issue I see with this is that now you're facing 3 200 man units each of which your 5 artillery units can destroy very quickly.

The real issue is that the AI just doesn't really concentrate or respond to counterbattery at all. We could make the artillery units more vulnerable to morale damage, but that also lets you get close and rout them quickly and keep them routing. I have some changes in the works that will make the AI more likely to try and shoot at any artillery units that are visible so that should at least make it a bit harder to just wipe their artillery out.

Could just be my aggressive artillery doctrine...

In each Corp I have a  mixture of 6pdrs for quick re positioned support(labeled Horse Artillery, so I can find them quickly) howitzers for critical positions a the front line, Napoleons to backup the howitzers, etc. and an assortment of long range batteries that can support the Napoleons. I deploy skirmishers and cavalry that can react to any threat to my batteries.

 

By the way, I found evidence in Avery Harris' journal that the CSA batteries at Gettysburg may have been short of appropriate shot at day 1. He relates seeing a piece of rail coming end over end across the battle field during the fight for McPherson's ridge.

[pandakraut]

17 minutes ago, BCH said:

By the way, I found evidence in Avery Harris' journal that the CSA batteries at Gettysburg may have been short of appropriate shot at day 1. He relates seeing a piece of rail coming end over end across the battle field during the fight for McPherson's ridge.

That's a great anecdote, thanks for sharing.

Regarding an aggressive artillery doctrine. I'm all for it. I mostly think the damage and range numbers are to high once you get a few perks onto the units.

[sirwaldi]

On ‎4‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 1:37 PM, Minas Moth said:

@sirwaldi well it wasn't all that easy... But it is easier than playing historically and trying to defend around the West Woods, Dunker Church and Cornfield. What I did was i pushed with my starting troops North, towards the enemy and positioned my troops in the woods just North of the Cornfield where the farm is and stretched the line towards the east (there are good woods there). I have sent snipers to the west to hit flanking shots into incoming enemy brigades. Supported my troops with artillery, cleared enemy artillery with my west snipers and slowly rolled up my units from east towards the west in order to completely encircle the enemies units...When your and enemies reinforcements arrive you can hold great position from east to west in the woods there... When Sunken Road phase opens up send most of your troops north with some 4 or 5 brigades with some artillery support guarding the bridge east of Sunken road... When enemy forces start crossing the bridge they'll get straight into your infantry and guns and are easily dealt with... After that it is all about mopping up the enemy forces over the Antietam creek...

Yes I play this campaign on Major General Difficulty.

One very important thing is to invest in good artillery and in Withworths with Telescopic sights... there are also a lot of good Youtube videos with strategies for Antietam Battle.

And this one was battle of Fredericksburg:

Hello Minas

 

Big THX for your help and Information.

I haave good artelery but i cant buy the Withworths with Telescopic!!!

In my game there is no option to buy them in the shop. After every main battle i buy good guns and rifels. I can only buy the J.F. Brown Rifles for my skrimishers!

i have finisdh now the 2nd bull run battle.

@ Panda 

is it possible that the mod is working on american and german games differently ?

 

 

[Titan Uranus]

Hey, could someone who knows tell me what the efficiency curve is for the units?

 

I know that artillery, for example, started to decline in damage output after 12 guns in vanilla, but what does the curve look like in this mod?

 

 

Also, I haven’t played since this game came out, does this mod come with the surrender mod? And if not, is it possible to update the 1.20+surrender mod to 1.24?

Edited April 17, 2019 by Titan Uranus

[pandakraut]

9 minutes ago, Titan Uranus said:

I know that artillery, for example, started to decline in damage output after 12 guns in vanilla, but what does the curve look like in this mod?

See link for a screenshot of how the mod currently works. https://www.dropbox.com/s/bxxwxiqtfwnwd63/ModdedEffifiencyCurve.png?dl=0

Replacing the base game curves with custom ones is in progress but the weapons have to be completely reworked to accommodate them which has been going slowly.

10 minutes ago, Titan Uranus said:

Also, I haven’t played since this game came out, does this mod come with the surrender mod? And if not, is it possible to update the 1.20+surrender mod to 1.24?

The current version of the mod doesn't come with the surrender changes. They overlap a bit to much to really be compatible anymore. There are a number of surrender logic changes coming in the next version though.

[pandakraut]

38 minutes ago, sirwaldi said:

In my game there is no option to buy them in the shop. After every main battle i buy good guns and rifels. I can only buy the J.F. Brown Rifles for my skrimishers!

If you're playing the Union the J.F. Brown is the best scoped rifle you are able to buy. You might be able to capture some Whitworth T.S. later in the campaign though.

39 minutes ago, sirwaldi said:

is it possible that the mod is working on american and german games differently ?

You're asking about translating the perk and weapon tooltips into german correct? I'll have to see if I have access to what language is selected in the game code. If I do I can probably get a translated version of those setup.

[Titan Uranus]

Were the curves similar for the 1.2+surrender build?

 

Also, on that build, is it WAD for the Henry to be kinda underwhelming? I haven’t been able to try it much yet, but I’ve had Cav ford a river directly in front of a large unit of Henry-equiped infantry, and escape out the other side.

Edited April 17, 2019 by Titan Uranus

[pandakraut]

3 minutes ago, Titan Uranus said:

Were the curves similar for the 1.2+surrender build?

Yes, they would be the same. While the latest version of the Surrender mod uses it's own custom curves those would not work well with the larger unit sizes available in the combined version.

[pandakraut]

5 minutes ago, Titan Uranus said:

Also, on that build, is it WAD for the Henry to be kinda underwhelming? I haven’t been able to try it much yet, but I’ve had Cav ford a river directly in front of a large unit of Henry-equiped infantry, and escape out the other side.

The henry is fairly lackluster in 1.24 as well. Their range curve just isn't good enough to really hold up to normal infantry weapons. You can make them work but it takes some effort.

[Titan Uranus]

Does the Spencer suffer from the same issue?

[pandakraut]

Just now, Titan Uranus said:

Does the Spencer suffer from the same issue?

It's considerably better than the henry. I tend not to use them to much unless I capture them, but they should be decent at least.

[Titan Uranus]

Ok, is there a guide on how to increase deployment size? For 1st Bull Run in particular, it’s impossible to cover everything you need to cover with only five units.