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J & P Rebalance Mod by JonnyH13 and Pandakraut 02/19/20 1.26.1

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pandakraut:   I enjoy some of the more challenging play dynamic in MG-level play, but really don't like the penalties in terms of Spoils of War.  I'd like to keep the 20% recovery rate and still make the AI a tougher opponent.   Is there any way to make the AI more challenging thru the config/unitModifier files?  It seems that adjusting the attributes affect both sides equally.

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55 minutes ago, dixiePig said:

pandakraut:   I enjoy some of the more challenging play dynamic in MG-level play, but really don't like the penalties in terms of Spoils of War.  I'd like to keep the 20% recovery rate and still make the AI a tougher opponent.   Is there any way to make the AI more challenging thru the config/unitModifier files?  It seems that adjusting the attributes affect both sides equally.

The next version will include a modifier so you can adjust the AI units size up or down.

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Posted (edited)

nice.  I believe that deals with my whine about spoils of war

anything re 'toughness" or "aggressiveness"?

and ... when is next version?

 

Edited by dixiePig
clarification & follow-up

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First, excellent mod - thanks so much to both of you, Panda and Jonny.  It's been many hours of fun (and at times pain 😉) It's been a massive improvement over vanilla.

I've made it past Malvern Hill now on Union Legendary thus far and have a couple observations:

  • I've also experienced the save-game loss of wounded officers that gomurr mentioned above - I've lost a good handful of colonels before noticing this was an issue. I'm a slow player and play a grand battle like Shiloh over the course of a few days. This ends up being a big hurdle to overcome the extra loss of leadership... I'll try and delve further to see where this breaks. 
  • Skirmishers are super op - my couple 500 man brigades armed with Lorenzes routinely get over 3,000 kills per battle. They basically carry the day in the way artillery used to be. That being said, I have no idea how to beat Shiloh without them...
  • Artillery for the most part is pretty balanced. Perhaps still a bit op, but it's now rooted in reality and the curves seem to work great. I feel the perks are the most flushed out - for instance you really have to think hard about weather to take the extra 10% range at the cost of firepower. The 14 pndr seems to generally perform the best for me, though I'm not sure how realistic that is
  • I haven't had much trouble raking-up officers - running up to 2nd Bull Run, I have 3 Lt. Generals, 3 MGs, and several Brig. Gens. despite the aforementioned loss from the save game issue. I just followed your tip on training officers on new units, particularly artillery. I honestly enjoy the challenge of trying to rank them up / balancing command on top units.
  • Your youtube videos are a huge, huge help - thanks for taking the extra time to do them
  • I find it really hard to justify to justify anything but the accuracy perk for the first perk for infantry - most of the time, the extra firepower is essential.
  • I'm not sure how to gauge the value of medicine - I have a feeling that most of the time, you're just better off with higher training and filling losses with cheaper veterans. But the weapons returned may tip the balance?
  • After a while, having to massacre army after army gets a bit tedious - it sounds like moral and surrendering is being reworked, which sounds great to me!
Thanks again!
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Updated to 1.26.  

This update will shatter the current meta.  I cannot wait for the dumpster fire this will be once everyone has a taste of the new AI changes.

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On 1/8/2020 at 10:55 PM, SlowTrot said:

First, excellent mod - thanks so much to both of you, Panda and Jonny.  It's been many hours of fun (and at times pain 😉) It's been a massive improvement over vanilla.

I've made it past Malvern Hill now on Union Legendary thus far and have a couple observations:

  • I've also experienced the save-game loss of wounded officers that gomurr mentioned above - I've lost a good handful of colonels before noticing this was an issue. I'm a slow player and play a grand battle like Shiloh over the course of a few days. This ends up being a big hurdle to overcome the extra loss of leadership... I'll try and delve further to see where this breaks. 
  • Skirmishers are super op - my couple 500 man brigades armed with Lorenzes routinely get over 3,000 kills per battle. They basically carry the day in the way artillery used to be. That being said, I have no idea how to beat Shiloh without them...
  • Artillery for the most part is pretty balanced. Perhaps still a bit op, but it's now rooted in reality and the curves seem to work great. I feel the perks are the most flushed out - for instance you really have to think hard about weather to take the extra 10% range at the cost of firepower. The 14 pndr seems to generally perform the best for me, though I'm not sure how realistic that is
  • I haven't had much trouble raking-up officers - running up to 2nd Bull Run, I have 3 Lt. Generals, 3 MGs, and several Brig. Gens. despite the aforementioned loss from the save game issue. I just followed your tip on training officers on new units, particularly artillery. I honestly enjoy the challenge of trying to rank them up / balancing command on top units.
  • Your youtube videos are a huge, huge help - thanks for taking the extra time to do them
  • I find it really hard to justify to justify anything but the accuracy perk for the first perk for infantry - most of the time, the extra firepower is essential.
  • I'm not sure how to gauge the value of medicine - I have a feeling that most of the time, you're just better off with higher training and filling losses with cheaper veterans. But the weapons returned may tip the balance?
  • After a while, having to massacre army after army gets a bit tedious - it sounds like moral and surrendering is being reworked, which sounds great to me!
Thanks again!

- This is the first I've heard of relatively small infantry armed skirmishers being that good. Do you have them setup as snipers or are you using them differently? 
- The 14pdr has been toned down a bit in the recent patch, but it's still probably the best of the 'early' tier artillery.
- Eventually I start using the charge perk for some dedicated melee units, but early on as the Union I agree it's hard to justify anything but the accuracy perk. Though once you have a MG in charge of a corps you get a bit more leeway.
- Early on as the Union at least 4-6 points in training feels essential. I usually start putting points in other stats instead of maxing it after that though.
- Massacres will still be relatively common in the current version unfortunately. There's a larger rework we'd like to do, but just haven't had the time to get it worked well yet.

Glad you're enjoying the mod and thanks for the feedback :)

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Can you explain the supplies and the new discount a bit more!?!


i dont understand it right now

and what have changed there, how can i know how many supplies i need now...


- Adding men now always results in a damage increase with diminishing returns for all unit types.   ------- Does this works with the artys too or only for infantry???

 

what does  ---diminishing returns for all unit types ---- mean 

sorry my english is not the best

Thanks for new mod and the grat work you done.... 🙂

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21 minutes ago, sirwaldi said:

Can you explain the supplies and the new discount a bit more!?!

The amount of supply that can be put in each corps wagon is now determined by points in Army Organization and Logistics. 5k can be added per point.

After every battle, if a supply wagon is not completely full, the cost to refill it will be deducted from the player's money. This deduction occurs after battle rewards have been given to the player. The cost to refill is 30% - half a percent per point in AO, Logistics, Politics, and Economy. 

For example, if you have 3 points in politics, 1 point in economy, 2 points in AO, and 2 points in logistics.

Each wagon can hold 20k supply. If you use 15k supply, then after the battle you have to pay to refill 15k * (.3 - (8 * 0.005)) = 15k * .26 = 3900

29 minutes ago, sirwaldi said:

- Adding men now always results in a damage increase with diminishing returns for all unit types.   ------- Does this works with the artys too or only for infantry???

This change has been in the mod for a while and applies to all unit types. What it means is that no matter how many men or guns you add to a unit, you still end up dealing more damage than a smaller unit.

Diminishing returns means that as the unit gets bigger you get slightly less benefit for each man added. To make up some numbers: if a unit with 1 cannon deals 25 damage per shot then a unit with 2 cannon would deal 25 + 24, 3 cannon  25 + 24 + 23, and so on.

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This model has been an awesome change of pace.  I like how much the experience of a unit really matters.  In the original game you could give a 1 star unit a top tier rifle and they'd do alright.   Which isn't realistic since there's little appreciable difference between say an 1855 and an 1861.  I also like the officer replacements,  that's how it works in real life,  you wouldn't have a brigade utterly leaderless due to losing one man.

 

Now the skirmisher sizes.  I understand why they're bumped to a thousand,  its because the expectation is that you'll also have 4500 man infantry brigades and that works out for a battalion or regiment.   But it's so much fun to play around with "modernized " tactics and wreck lines of battle with 2 and 3 star skirmisher brigades that take almost no losses when they can even be seen.

 

My one complaint is that this is black powder.  I'm not sure if the game will allow this, but there should be a spotting bloom on a unit when it fires.  I shouldn't be able to sit at the edge of the trees within rifle musket range and just hammer away without my fogbank giving me away.  By the second volley the enemy should really at least know that I'm there even if they cant hit me due to cover.  I get it for say whitworths with scopes at extreme range.  But I've got units with 1855s that can get 200 kills before the enemy even reacts.

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2 hours ago, Taccovert4 said:

My one complaint is that this is black powder.  I'm not sure if the game will allow this, but there should be a spotting bloom on a unit when it fires.  I shouldn't be able to sit at the edge of the trees within rifle musket range and just hammer away without my fogbank giving me away.  By the second volley the enemy should really at least know that I'm there even if they cant hit me due to cover.  I get it for say whitworths with scopes at extreme range.  But I've got units with 1855s that can get 200 kills before the enemy even reacts.

It sounds like these comments are based on 1.25.2? 1.26 just released and one of the changes is that there is now a stealth penalty that stacks each time a unit fires within a short period of time. AI units are also given a spot bonus when they take damage, so it should be much harder to fire from cover and stay hidden with normal rifles. 

2 hours ago, Taccovert4 said:

Now the skirmisher sizes.  I understand why they're bumped to a thousand,  its because the expectation is that you'll also have 4500 man infantry brigades and that works out for a battalion or regiment.   But it's so much fun to play around with "modernized " tactics and wreck lines of battle with 2 and 3 star skirmisher brigades that take almost no losses when they can even be seen.

The latest version also reduced the max player skirmisher size to 750. This is still a bit big when compared to base game sized infantry units, but as you noted it's a compromise so that they can still be useful when 6k units are running around. Max size skirmisher infantry replacements is not something we really want to encourage, so this may need some adjustments in the future if they are still a problem.

Thanks for the feedback and glad to hear you're enjoying the mod overall.

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18 hours ago, pandakraut said:

It sounds like these comments are based on 1.25.2? 1.26 just released and one of the changes is that there is now a stealth penalty that stacks each time a unit fires within a short period of time. AI units are also given a spot bonus when they take damage, so it should be much harder to fire from cover and stay hidden with normal rifles. 

The latest version also reduced the max player skirmisher size to 750. This is still a bit big when compared to base game sized infantry units, but as you noted it's a compromise so that they can still be useful when 6k units are running around. Max size skirmisher infantry replacements is not something we really want to encourage, so this may need some adjustments in the future if they are still a problem.

Thanks for the feedback and glad to hear you're enjoying the mod overall.

Yeah, I'm still working through campaign on 1.25.2.  I won't update until I'm at least done with my current campaign as I don't want to screw with the work already done.  Real Life means that my campaigning is pretty slow, I can normally get to and through one grand battle a week at best, sometimes 2 weeks.  

 

It sounds like your spotting changes should address my one concern, so good work on that.  And I saw that you re-introduced some limited skirmisher detachment.  I like that as I think it's unrealistic for a brigade to find itself facing an approaching enemy on 2 fronts and have to willingly give up a flank.  In real life they'd bend their line or detach a regiment to deal with the additional threat, and detached skirmishers kind of function for that role.  Plus, if the numbers are relatively low for that detachment, then it's not going to be able to do the infamous 'skirmisher cloud' that the vanilla game could fall prey to and was so OP.

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Plus, it seems like my campaign wouldn't be compatible with the new version.   I'm actually having fun with the meta.  Playing a campaign as myself, time traveled back to 1861 and put in charge.   A matter of modern training,  tactics, and communications concepts put into action. 

 

So yes, I have the 1000 man currently 2 star whitworth unit that utterly mauls in combination with the 250 man sniper unit.

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21 hours ago, Taccovert4 said:

Plus, it seems like my campaign wouldn't be compatible with the new version.   I'm actually having fun with the meta.  Playing a campaign as myself, time traveled back to 1861 and put in charge.   A matter of modern training,  tactics, and communications concepts put into action. 

 

So yes, I have the 1000 man currently 2 star whitworth unit that utterly mauls in combination with the 250 man sniper unit.

Best experience is usually with a fresh campaign, so if you've got a good one going on the prior version then it makes sense to finish that out first.

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why did you re-enable skirmishers?

now the AI just camps out and shoots with skirmishers who refuse to die even before you can reach the main battle

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3 hours ago, william1993 said:

why did you re-enable skirmishers?

now the AI just camps out and shoots with skirmishers who refuse to die even before you can reach the main battle

Detached skirmishers were re-enabled for scouting and screening purposes now that the majority of exploits attributed to them have been fixed. I still use them very rarely myself.

Detached skirmishers should be too small and do too little damage to hold off any real force of AI units for very long. They can take a few volleys at most on legendary without shattering.

If you've seen different results more specific details such as difficulty, side, battle, and situation would be helpful.

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AAAAAAANNNDDD THE PANDA STRIKES AGAIN LADIES AND GENTS!!! Thanks Pandakraut for the awesome update! Now, I can get my butt kicked even more efficiently than before!! lol, seriously though, thanks man!

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Plus napoleonic tactics typically include a skirmisher or light company in every regiment.  It would be realistic to have them.  The term driving in the skirmishers or pickets is what this means.  A serious advance by line infantry would break or drive off skirmisher companies back to their regiments.  

 

What small skirmisher companies really do is provide screening and intelligence to their regiment.

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Small experience report from the mod 1.26!

Hello everyone,

i played major general the union to  2ND Bull (only first 3 missions of the campain).

The AI charges a lot more and often attacks on one point with different brigades.

i try to split up the AI lines by skirmisher on the flanks and keep them away from the center.

nopoleon in the center for charging opponents work well, counter-charge too,

in the same jhonny wrote it, the opponent attacks with more concentration and on one point...

but with the detachable skirmisher i can cover much more map and can attack the opponent better before he can concentrate on one or two positions
the detachable skirmisher are very good for: scouting, flanking manuver, run behind  the enemy linesand keep him busy with hit and run tactics.

A very successful renewal! Many thanks for it.

2 questions but still

1 is it just me or do the skrimisher do more damage than before the update?

2 the bonus of 25 % more speed (i have chose it, but see no difference between me and the AI) for my general.
did the bonus applies passively on the whole map or only in the command radius???

THX

 

 

 

Edited by sirwaldi
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5 hours ago, sirwaldi said:

1 is it just me or do the skrimisher do more damage than before the update?

There were no damage changes to skirmishers. Detached skirmishers will get stat bonuses to damage but not the parent units perks so their damage will never be great.

5 hours ago, sirwaldi said:

2 the bonus of 25 % more speed (i have chose it, but see no difference between me and the AI) for my general.
did the bonus applies passively on the whole map or only in the command radius???

t1 and t2 general perks apply to the entire commanded corps. T3 applies within the general's aura radius.

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Is there anywhere I can see how much increasing the size of a unit will change the overall damage? I know one of the important parts of this mod is that damage will always increase with size but with a diminishing amount, but by how much? I'm trying to find a optimal size for my units and trial and error is just resulting in a lot of error and time wasted. 

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Love the change so far.

My biggest complaint was it was hard to get brig gens, and well that's been fixed, so as far as im concerned mods good.

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On 1/29/2020 at 8:34 PM, TheBlueWizard said:

Is there anywhere I can see how much increasing the size of a unit will change the overall damage? I know one of the important parts of this mod is that damage will always increase with size but with a diminishing amount, but by how much? I'm trying to find a optimal size for my units and trial and error is just resulting in a lot of error and time wasted. 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/u1dwgng4cyxkbsj/RebalanceArtillerySizeCurve.png?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kjte31kpcurf3lc/RebalanceInfantrySizeCurve.png?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zesravoaf2ccb0m/RebalanceSkirmisherSizeCurve.png?dl=0

Graphs of the resulting damage curves linked above. The key is that the curve doesn't force an optimal size anymore. Optimal is up to the player in terms of availability of recruits, weapons, desired scaling, etc.

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Hm. Detached and dedicated Skirmishers have been - at least for me - the one OP unit since the game was released. In the mod my armycomposition is 80% Skirmishers and 20% longrange Artillery. A ***Unit with WW(TS) flanking an AI-Advance is able to break 3-4 Infantry before they even reach their opponent. In my current CSA-Campaign most Battles are like shooting ducks, i only lose men, if i am too lazy and go for max-speed while watching sth. on 2nd screen. This also makes Napoleons or 24PDs completely useless since the AI never reaches their most effective range. Capping Skirmishers at 750 wont change that. The Spotting- and Stealth- advantages even on one star are way too powerful and since i dont deploy any infantry at all AIs armysize is quite small and even 1.000-***-AI-Skirmishers dont give challenge because they often equip 300-Range-Sharps. The visibility-Change could be interesting though, if it doesnt mess up the AI (dont see, how an infantry-unit can reach a Sharpshooter shooting from 600+20% range). Do you have a video showing the new effect, i think you called it stealth-penalty?

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