A Different Take on Reinforcements

[Sunleader]

23 minutes ago, Willis PVP2 said:

On 10/3/2017 at 12:00 PM, Sunleader said:

Better Players can easily Defeat up to 2 times their own BR on NPCs. So 1.5 BR Reinforcements basicly means the New Player will just die Regardless.

Yes, most any player should be able to shoot bots that are 1.5, 2, 3, or even 5x their BR...but the ships they use for that are guaranteed to be different than the ship you use to hunt players. Lets not forget that a player is making up part of that 1.5x BR, and a player is a lot more potent than an AI... Anyways, the point of 1.5x BR reinforcement is this: it gives a player who is ganked some AI help. It is not meant to win his battle for him. The paper-thin speed built ships that the hunters use should melt if the player can get them in the firing arc of the AI. And notice that I said the reinforcement BR may need tweaking...perhaps 2x is the right number or 2.25x...)

On top of that. The Battle Timer is 3 minutes. Add 3 Minutes to that is 6 minutes. Add to that. That the Reinforcements first need to actually reach the Target.  Sorry but by that Time any Newer Player is long Dead and the Game is over.

I think you misunderstood what I was suggesting for battle timers and calling reinforcements. The battle is open for 3 minutes for players to join either side. After that, the battle closes and if the defender meets the requirements I stated in the OP, he has the option, for 1 minute, to call in AI reinforcements. As soon as he presses that button, they show up and they are close to the enemy with their guns loaded. I'm not sure where 6 minutes comes into play, if the player wants reinforcements he has them in just a few seconds over 3 minutes from the time the battle starts. 

Saying the same thing over and over I know.

But guys you need to get this into your Head.

Either People want to do PvP then you dont need to do anything for them to go into PvP Encounters and Fight. Even if it was an 1x1m Zone on the Map they will go there. 

That didn't work too well with the PvP circles...sure, there was PvP there sometimes, but just as often it was just a place to go and gank other fleets. Thats well and good, but it is not PvP hunting, which is what I, and a lot of others, enjoy doing.

Or they dont want to do PvP then you can do what you want and they will never do PvP with you. Whatever you do will Result in either them Ignoring it entirely or them Leaving the Game.

Its a PvP server, if they don't want to PvP they need to go to the PvE server, or operate within their capital's protection zone (no-tag zone), or accept that they are going to be hunted and possibly sunk by other players while they sail in OW on the PvP server. That is part of being on a PvP server: you accept that there are players who will find you, chase you, and sink/board/capture you.

 

1.

PvP Equipped Ships are Generally less Effective against NPCs. But you dont need to kill the NPCs after all.

Your Target is to kill the Player.

And PvP Ships emphasize Speed and Meneuverability. So Killing the Player and Escaping the NPCs is an easy Task. Especially because the NPCs are unlikely to attempt Demast Actions to prevent an Escape after the Players has been Killed.

 

2.

Your Suggestion was that Players from both sides should be able to Join for 3 minutes. And 3 minutes after the Battle has closed the Players gets a 1 Minute Time Window to Call Reinforcements.

Which means he can call Reinforcements after 6 minutes and needs to do so within 1 Minute.

This is problematic for 2 reasons.

A. This completely Defeats the Purpose of Newbe Protection. Cause for what the hell is the 1 Minute limit. Its not serving any Purpose except for new Players to miss it because they dont know about it and in their Panic over being Attacked miss the Window.

B. 6 Minutes + the Spawn Distance is nowhere near fast enough to pose any Serious Protection for the Attacked Player. By this time the Attacked Player will be long Dead.

 

3.

Well given that we had nearly 3 times the Population back there. I would say it worked far better than any of the other attempts with weaker Safezones they made.

Needless to say that your Statement there is Contradictory as hell.

Because Sorry. But Safezones are only used by PvE Players and Traders.

So you dont consider it PvP to Gank other PvPers. But you do consider it proper PvP to Attack Tradeships and Newbes as well as Interdicting Players who do PvE Missions ?

Sorry but get real there. You cant seriously think that you will get an Fair Fight from the People in the Safezone. All you get is Ganking Opportunities....

 

4.

Wrong.

See Mate there is a very Simple Problem here

The PvE Server Prohibits PvP of any and all sorts. And most Players are Mixed. There is barely any Strict PvP or Strict PvE Player.

Thing is. Being Ganked is not considered as Fun PvP by most.

So having PvE Missions and Trade in an PvP Zone is bullshit.

There is no Fights to be had here. Only Ganking and Frustration.

People dont use the PvE Server because they do in fact now and then want to go out and Fight PvP in actual Fights.

The PvE Server does not offer Port Battles etc.

 

And you should be happy about that. Cause if the PvE Server would offer Designated PvP Areas and Port Battles the PvP Server would become veeeeery Empty suddenly as all the Mixed Players would go over there

 

So pls spare me that rubbish Argument that tries to paint things Black and White. By deciding that the PvP Server should be PvP everywhere and anywhere. And that if you dont like that you should go to the PvE Server where PvP never happens at all

Cause Sorry to tell you. But as everyone has seen from the massive Playerloss when it was attempted and from the Devs having Officially Confirmed that this attempt did go horribly wrong. That having only a Pure PvP and a Pure PvE Server is extremely Niche and wont sustain any real Player Numbers.

Thats why they went back to have the PvP Server contain Safezones and have even announced to Increase PvE Content. Because ultimately the only real way to get Players is a Mixed Server where PvP is Possible but not Omnipresent.

[William Death]

14 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

1.

PvP Equipped Ships are Generally less Effective against NPCs. But you dont need to kill the NPCs after all.

Your Target is to kill the Player.

And PvP Ships emphasize Speed and Meneuverability. So Killing the Player and Escaping the NPCs is an easy Task. Especially because the NPCs are unlikely to attempt Demast Actions to prevent an Escape after the Players has been Killed.

This is all true, but what happens when I'm in a paper Surprise and a Bellona with its guns loaded pops in within shooting distance to my left and upwind of me? That won't be fun.

Remember, the goal of reinforcements is not to win the battle for the defender, but to help him win... I might withstand that initial broadside that the AI shoots at me, but I'll have to pop a hull repair and run. If the defender is smart, he'll chain my sails and I can't go anywhere. Now I have a weak hull, no sail repair for 12 minutes, an angry player and an AI Bellona to contend with...that sounds like a good fight to me 

2.

Your Suggestion was that Players from both sides should be able to Join for 3 minutes. And 3 minutes after the Battle has closed the Players gets a 1 Minute Time Window to Call Reinforcements.

Which means he can call Reinforcements after 6 minutes and needs to do so within 1 Minute.

No: the battle is open for 3 minutes. Period. It closes. As soon as it closes, the defender has 1 minute to decide if he wants to call reinforcements (which appear instantly and are close to the attacker).

This is problematic for 2 reasons.

A. This completely Defeats the Purpose of Newbe Protection. Cause for what the hell is the 1 Minute limit. Its not serving any Purpose except for new Players to miss it because they dont know about it and in their Panic over being Attacked miss the Window.

1 minute limit is there because the player should know almost immediately if he is going to need AI reinforcements. And I don't know how someone who is in a ship worth attacking (something other than a basic cutter) would not be able to figure out what the call reinforcement button does if they see it...if they panic over it then I guess the attacker has really struck fear into them LOL

B. 6 Minutes + the Spawn Distance is nowhere near fast enough to pose any Serious Protection for the Attacked Player. By this time the Attacked Player will be long Dead.

Again, AI reinforcements would be available immediately after the battle closes (3 minutes from the start of the battle) and spawn quite close to the attacker. 

 

3.

Well given that we had nearly 3 times the Population back there. I would say it worked far better than any of the other attempts with weaker Safezones they made.

Needless to say that your Statement there is Contradictory as hell.

Because Sorry. But Safezones are only used by PvE Players and Traders.

So you dont consider it PvP to Gank other PvPers. But you do consider it proper PvP to Attack Tradeships and Newbes as well as Interdicting Players who do PvE Missions ?

Sorry but get real there. You cant seriously think that you will get an Fair Fight from the People in the Safezone. All you get is Ganking Opportunities....

That is not at all what I said. I said that the PvP circles encouraged both fair fight PvP as well as ganking fleets. There is absolutely nothing wrong with either style of PvP. I went to the circles and did both. However, that is NOT the solo PvP "hunting" which is what I enjoy. So lets define "solo hunting" (which, by the way, is almost the same as group hunting, but with just one player instead of a group):

A player sails around in his PvP ship and look for targets in enemy waters to fight. He attacks anything he fancies, and avoids what he doesn't want to fight. There are trader hunters, mission hunters (who jump in missions), and warship hunters. I'll attack anything I want to, but I mainly look for warships, especially other fifth rates.

So, where does "fair PvP" appear in that? Nowhere. I'm not hunting to give anyone a fair fight unless I want to agree to it. I'm hunting to find a fight that I want to fight. I've attacked and captured ships much larger than mine, as well as sunk ships much smaller than mine.  

What about ganking...what is that? If I'm "group hunting" with 4 others and we attack 2 frigates...did we "gank" those frigates? Or did we have a group fight that the enemy wasn't prepared for? Should we have maybe offered to try to balance BR to have an even fight? Did they do that in real age of sail combat?

Lets think of another example: I sail my Endymion and I attack and capture a Constitution...did I gank him? It was 1v1, is that still a gank? Or what about when I attack an Indiaman with my Surprise...thats an 18pdr 4th rate vs a 9pdr fifth rate 1v1, is that a gank?

So, I've addressed the important stuff I think. The rest of your reply is discussing playerbase levels (which is well covered in other threads and mostly irrelevant here) and categorizing PvP and PvE and RvR (again, other threads do that well too).

I will say this much about PvE content on the PvP server. That is fine. I even enjoy some PvE once in a while. The difference between me and the kind of player who would leave the game after being sunk while they were trying to PvE is this: I signed into the PvP server fully knowing that anytime I press "Sail" I'm putting my ship at risk. I may go and do a mission and be fine, or I may be ganked and lose everything I had in my trader. It happens. Giving a small safe zone to do risk free missions for people starting out is fine; see what I wrote earlier in this thread about keeping the protected zone around the capital that we already have: it works great. What I don't like is a reinforcement zone large enough to fully supply all needs for shipbuilding, PvE battles, and trading. If a player is that focused on PvE content, then maybe the PvE server is the better one for him, or maybe a character on both servers so that he can PvP when he wants to and PvE absolutely risk free when he wants to.

[Sunleader]

27 minutes ago, Willis PVP2 said:

So, I've addressed the important stuff I think. The rest of your reply is discussing playerbase levels (which is well covered in other threads and mostly irrelevant here) and categorizing PvP and PvE and RvR (again, other threads do that well too).

I will say this much about PvE content on the PvP server. That is fine. I even enjoy some PvE once in a while. The difference between me and the kind of player who would leave the game after being sunk while they were trying to PvE is this: I signed into the PvP server fully knowing that anytime I press "Sail" I'm putting my ship at risk. I may go and do a mission and be fine, or I may be ganked and lose everything I had in my trader. It happens. Giving a small safe zone to do risk free missions for people starting out is fine; see what I wrote earlier in this thread about keeping the protected zone around the capital that we already have: it works great. What I don't like is a reinforcement zone large enough to fully supply all needs for shipbuilding, PvE battles, and trading. If a player is that focused on PvE content, then maybe the PvE server is the better one for him, or maybe a character on both servers so that he can PvP when he wants to and PvE absolutely risk free when he wants to.

 

1.

Actually its not. You See Mate. The Safezones are not actually Supposed to be Winnable for the Attacker. They are not supposed to allow PvP. These Zones have the Duty to Prevent Attacks on Players which are Not Equipped, Not Prepared, Not Experienced or not Willing to Play PvP Battles at the current time.

As the Devs said clearly. If you Skilled you can Bring down the Enemy. But you will Die.

Thats what Safezones are supposed to be.

The reason its Reinforcements is not to make this a Fight that you might actually Win if your more Skilled than the Enemy. They are there for just 2 Reasons.

A. To not give an Complete Immersion Break by just being unable to Attack each other.

B. To Punish People who attempt to Kill People inside that Zone.

 

Your Idea here is unfortunately completely misguided. Because sorry to tell you. But in Fact the Idea of the Safezone is to be a Safezone. In which even if the Defender is in a Basic Cutter and Plays this Game for the very First Time. He is supposed to come out Victorious of this.

 

 

2.

Mate your Suggestion is

:::::

If you are the defender in your home safe-zone (did not press "attack") and you have less than 1.5x the BR of your attacker,  you can call in AI reinforcements to give you up to 1.5x the BR of the attacker. You can only call those reinforcements after 3 minutes and the battle is closed, preventing teammates from joining your side, but no later than 4 minutes into the battle (so you have a 1 minute opportunity to call AI reinforcements). This gives defenders a chance to call on AI to help them if their fellow captains cannot assist them in time, but it still encourages players to sail with others so that you aren't working with a 1.5x BR AI limitation in the battle.

::::::

 

This Strikes 4 Limitations.

A. You are the Defender and did not Attack. Meaning you cant call Reinforcements at all if you Attacked him. 

That one is Fine. No Reinforcements if you Engaged of your own Free Will.

B. You have less than 1.5x the BR. Meaning you cant call Reinforcements at all if you got the Bigger Ship.

That one is Bullshit. Because the BR means nearly nothing in PvP as the Emphasize is on Maneuverability and the Big Heavy Frigate with high BR being Attacked by an Lighter much Faster and Maneuverable Frigate rarely stands a Chance in a 1 vs 1 PvP Fight.

C. You can only call those Reinfrocements after 3 minutes AND the battle is closed. This would imply 3 minutes after the Battle is closed so 6 minutes. If you mean this differently I think you should rephrase that as its misleading.

This one is really Bullshit regardless tough. Even if we assume 3 minutes. Its still more than enough to Rape any Trader or New Player easily.

D. so you have a 1 minute opportunity to call AI Reinforcements. Meaning you only get 1 Minute.

This one is Bullshit as well. Because Sorry but most new Players especially wont know what to do and thus will lose this Chance. Needless to say that this limitation serves no purpose aside from causing this effect of people being unable to call for help.

 

 

3.

Its called Implication Mate.

Sorry but Seriously.

An PvP Equipped Ship thats ready to Fight PvP will not be in the Safezone in the First Place.

The Safezone is used when you want to do PvE things mostly to earn Money.

The Ships and People Sailing here are by Default NOT ready for PvP.

Killing People who do Missions, Trade etc etc is ultimately just that. Ganking. Its not PvP.

Its not a Fair Fight and not in any way Fun for the one Attacked. Its merely Disrupting Gameplay and causing Frustration.

A Free Kill for PvPers which are scared to Fight people that can Fight back. Nothing else.

 

And Sorry. But if what you say is true then I am not Interested in Talking to you. Because then your just another Person which is not actually Interested in the Challenge of Fighting other Players. Your not Playing PvP because killing Predictable NPCs are "Boring" you are killing other Players in PvP because you like to kill people and see them Frustrated. You like to Hurt others and want to Satisfy that by killing Easy Targets that dont pose the Danger of you getting to taste your own Medicine. In Short your the absolute worst kind of Player in this kind of Game.

And Sorry but your Dream will never Come True.

Because People dont Play as Prey.

Nobody is Interested to Play Prey so you can Hunt them Mate.

 

 

 

4.

Mate I am only addressing your Statements. If you consider that Off Topic then your the one who was Off Topic in the First Place.

Dont complain to me when I call out on your Statements.

And Sorry Mate. But you see. When I joined this Server every Single Port had a Protection Zone.

If you want a Hardcore Server with no Restrictions on PvP where you have to expect Death whenever you Press Sail than thats Fine.

And guess what the Devs Tried it. And it completely and utterly Failed. Costing us two thirds of the entire Userbase of the Game and killing the Game so much that they even wanted to throw the Servers together. Which the PvE Server Logically answered by making clear that if they are Forced onto that PvP Server they will be gone from this Game faster than the Devs can do a Single Server Maintenance.

 

Unfortunately. Hunting Simulators are only Fun for the Hunter my Friend. And only if enough Prey is around.

For the Prey its not Fun. And since its not Fun to Play Prey the Prey tends to just up and leave these Games.

 

 

Thats actually one of the Funny things there.

See Mate.

I see alot of Complains saying oh everyone is in the Safezone. So we dont find any PvP anymore.

But I have been to the Safezones. And hell there is NOBODY lol

They are just as Empty as the remaining Server you know.

Because thats the thing thats happened.

Not the Safezones killed PvP. PvP killed the Server and thus also PvP.

The reason you dont find Prey is not because its in the Safezones now. Its because they long stopped Playing.

 

The Few People now in the Safezones are mostly New Players. Which came here to test things out. And which thanks to these Safezones stayed in the Game for more than 3 days cause they were not instantly raped by People like you. And Quit the Game.

 

 

You say your proud that you dont Quit the Game if your Raped after leaving the Port because you Signed up for this ?

Well Sorry to Break it to you. But others are less SM Oriented. They refuse to take such abuse and are not interested in abusing others this way.

Thats why they say "Screw you Guys. I am goin Home" and leave the Game for good and you end up with the Near Dead Server we got now

 

 

Greetz Sun.

 

[Rigs]

4 hours ago, Borch said:

All in all utter rubbish once again. Talking just for talking without even small attempt to understand someone that disagrees with you. I hope that this kind of attitude towards people in response wont kick you in the back some day. 

So. Greetz and see you soon.

The way I see it, there are well established players and new players. The well established players do not want to PvP each other but would rather gank/jump new players or whoever not ready for it so all their suggestions aiming towards that. They can find, message each other or in global, follow the combat news and so on but they would not do that so it is obvious they are not looking for competitive PvP or a challenge. They seem to be taking enjoyment only from causing others misery in the name of " hardcore".

Furthermore, more proof to that, they also lobby against new players or whoever disagrees with them in the forums. Basically they will drive everyone else away.

Coming from a gaming background experience, only competitive PvP is hardcore. But in the end don't forget it's a game and just nerds, keyboard/controller warriors sitting behind a computer/tv screen.

You got yourselves to blame that this game hasn't really taken off.

I am really turned off by this poisonous attitude and It is really a shame that a handful have such a negative impact over a beautiful game.

Please prove me wrong!

There is a saying :Bigger the trolls smaller the balls" 

 

[Eyesore]

Being a new player has nothing to do with it, many things that are the way they are, are like that for a reason (good or bad). People are posting why they are like that and what was or is the the reasoning behind it. We all had to start someday, clueless, and learn everytime we go out in OW and/or sink. It's no reason, to just arbitrarely dismiss what you don't like. If it were poisonous ... why would anybody try to explain? Everybody gets sunk, new or not so new or veteran. Being sunk is part of the game.

Can a lot of things be improved? Offcourse they can, that's what all this debating/discussing is all about.

As far as I can see the biggest troll is just ignoring everything anybody says when he disagrees.

[CaptVonGunn]

On 10/2/2017 at 9:37 PM, Slim Jimmerson said:

By about 10 BR yes, but you can chop that up as risk/reward. AI shouldn't be the main protection anyway. You already have your nation close by, your clan who can help, and forts you can sail to. AI is a last resort for getting caught with your pants down

This would work if we had a couple hundred players online all the time for every nation. But as I type this we have 107 online for EU server Total.... Spread across 7 nations. MAkes calling for Player help from your nation player base a case of blind luck

Edited October 7, 2017 by CaptVonGunn

[Rigs]

On 10/6/2017 at 6:13 PM, Borch said:

Oh, but I tottaly agree with you. Part of the problem is because of people who search only for easy target instead of looking for something their size. Safe zone today exists mostly because of PvP'ers hunting around capitol in search of quick 1) PvP regardless if it's challenging or not. That's just human nature. PvP'ers want quick PvP (some of them also easy PvP) while 2) PvE'ers expect everything delivered to them through easy AI grind.

Na already saw Devs trying to cater to PvP group, but they didnt understood that PvP itself can't fuel the game for long. Thats why there is a need for PvE content also delivered in a way that combines both worlds properly. Thing is, devs can't make the same mistake now with PvE'ers as they did with PvP'ers. They can't deliver no effort content for them as people will simply get bored. Instead of swinging balance from one extreme into another, they need to find middle ground. Plenty of people here just don't understand that and would rather go into extremes not understanding, 3) that it means that group from the other side will just leave not finding anything interesting in NA gameplay.

If you find me trolling then it's fine (Although i don't feel I deserve that considering all the responses of that other guy not only to me but to everyone else).4) I exactly, only want this game to finnaly take off.

1) There is PK and there is PvP. Competitive is the key word for PvP.

2) Everyone that joins a PvP server is a PvP'er, there just casual and hardcore. PvE it's just means to an end.

3) The hardcore PK'ers will stomp their feet and get loud in forums but will only leave when there is no other players left because they don't like fighting each other and there is nobody left to bother. I wouldn't worry about them leaving just yet, they are still around keep doing their job driving everyone else away and the game into the ground.

 The main problem is getting and retaining new players which cannot be done by listening to the above group.

4) If you really want that, just ask yourself why it didn't so far? 

Edited October 11, 2017 by Rigs

[Sunleader]

2 hours ago, Rigs said:

1) There is PK and there is PvP. Competitive is the key word for PvP.

2) Everyone that joins a PvP server is a PvP'er, there just casual and hardcore. PvE it's just means to an end.

3) The hardcore PK'ers will stomp their feet and get loud in forums but will only leave when there is no other players left because they don't like fighting each other and there is nobody left to bother. I wouldn't worry about them leaving just yet, they are still around keep doing their job driving everyone else away and the game into the ground.

 The main problem is getting and retaining new players which cannot be done by listening to the above group.

4) If you really want that, just ask yourself why it didn't so far? 

1.  So I am not the only one who somehow thinks that this Difference needs to be made Clear.

2. I Disagree. Albeit its a bit of an wording Issue. You see. I am on the PvP Server. But I am not an PvPer. I still play PvE much much more than PvP. I do however like to Play PvP now and then. Which is why the PvE Server is just not my thing. As it allows no PvP or Portbattles at all. So I dont really agree on being an PvPer even if I do PvP now and then. I can life with being an PvEer even if I do not purely go PvE well you get the point I guess. 

3. They can leave for all I care to be Honest. Gladly they are not an Majority or even Large Group. And the Safezones will not really bother RvR Players that seek Fights with other Clans or Duels.

4. Well. I said this a few times already. But back then the Clan I was in had 26 People. 22 of which left pretty fast when they removed Safezones because you could not friggin leave Port alone anymore cause you were immediately jumped by a Ganking Squad. So I dont need long to make a guess on why this Game went nowhere during that time....

[Sunleader]

4 hours ago, Borch said:

2. You want PvP only on your own terms and the time that suits you. Thats not PvP sanbox server. It's either PvE or Legends.

3. They are not majority but every group should have it's place in this game. All those groups together make ultimate fun. If you take one, this will happen:

 

4. What are those removed SAFEZONES you are talking about?

 

2.

I want PvP where either side has a Chance to Win. I see no Merit in Fighting Battles that have been Decided before they started. Much less do I see any Merit in Killing the Game itself by preventing New Players from getting into it. Games are supposed to be Fun. And when a Game cant be Fun unless several others are Frustrated by you. You can take a Bet that this Game will never Survive.

3.

There is no Food Chain here. RPKs are a Swarm of Piranhas that will eliminate everything else from the River and then when nothing else is left anymore will start Devouring each other.

4.

If you didnt know. Back then we had Safezones on every port. And usually we had about 1000+ People Online during the Day. Then the Harcore PvP Crowd got their way. Safezones were Removed. The Game dropped Drastically in Player Numbers. And the Devs tried different things. Like Shortening Battle Timers so People could not Follow you into Missions and Attacks. Then removing Battle Timers for the Defenders Reinforcements so other Players could try to help you when you were Ganked.

It became so bad that they even wanted to Merge the PvE Server into the PvP Server to somehow keep Population up. Needless to say that the Guys on the PvE Server pretty much said. Guys if you do that We are ALL going to instantly Quit the Game as well. So they dropped that Idea.

 

But nothing helped. As long as RPKs were allowed to Kill New Players. They did just that.

Thats the thing. They dont care about loot or anything anyways. They want to Kill Players. Thats all they care about. So anything around that is Irrelevant. As long as they get to kill a Player they do it. Thats all there is to it.

New Players Stopped staying in the Game cause they would just be Ganked and killed the moment they left the Basic Cutter.

So about 2 Months ago. The Devs Pulled the Emergency Breaks. And added Safezones for the Capitol Areas. Because the Game was about to Die.

Since then a few People Returned. And New Players slowly started Showing up around the Main Ports again.