Make it so any battle started by a basic cutter can not gain hostility

[Bach]

The basic cutter is a hard mechanic to get right. We want new players to use them to learn the game but we don't want veteran players using them to game the game.

Recently it was discovered the basic cutter can tag an npc fleet with any other allied fleet inside the same circle. BR's add up. This generates an npc vs. npc battle with a basic cutter sailing around in it.  When the npcs kill the other npcs it drops the hostility on the any nearby port in partial contention. 

Now consider the effort. x4 players in basic cutters never have to worry about repairs. They each fan out and grab they own npc fights.  It would take x4 or more players is real ships to grind up that hostility for each battle. So the x4 basic cutters have a similar effect to x16 real player trying to grind hostility upwards.  Further the x16 players in real ships are risking those ships and potentially providing pvp.  The basic cutter can continue to cycle npc battles even under recently killed flag.  There is essentially very little you can do to fight it against this as the basic cutter is always a zero loss zero risk scenario.  So the basic cutter essentially becomes a zero risk zero cost defensive force multiplier in the hands of a veteran player.

What I think would be the easiest solution, that still allows for basic cutters to be used as planned in the game, is if ANY BATTLE started by a basic cutter can NOT gain any hostility. Simple change.

Now this wont stop basic cutters from running around performing npc fleet denial by dragging them all into battle. But its a step in the right direction.  Another possibility is if kills by NPCs simple do not gain hostility but that conflicts with the goals of fleets.    It is a difficult to achieve balance with the basic cutter in many ways.

 

[Slamz]

Another option would be to eliminate the ability to pull friendly NPCs into a battle but I'd kind of hate to see that. That was how we ground up a lot of XP back in the day: follow a big friendly fleet and then tag an enemy fleet that got too close and have a huge shootout. Good fun.

But as a contention generating method, it does need thinking about, especially the ability to do it in a Basic Cutter.

You shouldn't be able to generate thousands of points of contention for 100% free with absolutely zero risk.

Really maybe the answer is that only fights started with a 6th rate warship or better can generate contention.

[Sir Texas Sir]

I thought it couldn't start PvP so only thing it can pull is AI.   The one thing many mention is to just make there BR 10 like trade ships.   This will limit them from pulling any other big ships other than other basic cutters or traders.

As for the pulling the two fleets wouldn't the BR limit work for that?   I'm wondering how they are pulling fleets than.   Though those are some lucky folks we have hard enough time trying to find just the other nations fleets when we grind agro over in our area to be lucky enough to find our nation and the other together to pull them. 

So if the BR effects pull of AI ships too than dropping the Basic Cutters BR would solve this and have BR effect AI pull too.

I still think the only way to get a new basic cutter you should own no other ships.  Just like POTBS had the fallback ships you got when you got sunk and had no other ships.  Than you would have to send folks that get sunk back to closes Out Post not to closes friendly ports.  SO that way there is no need for a basic cutter to get back to home ports.  They can add the rookie Snow as a step up Basic Cutter for those that have ranked up a bit.   Than remove the crafting of the trader snow.  Might be the reason they are testing these rookie Snow/Brigs just for that reason.

3 hours ago, Slamz said:

Really maybe the answer is that only fights started with a 6th rate warship or better can generate contention.

You have to have a brig or higher (BR 50+) to enter Shallow water port battles.  Though I wouldn't limit it to 6th rates cause folks can do a lot of damage with Privateers while hunting traders in shallows and even deep waters.  Just an easy solution is players have to make the kill to get the AGRO no matter what.  Unless the AI is in your fleet than no NPC AI kills of other NPC AI creates AGRO for a region would be the best way to solve this and I thought they went that way?

[Guest]

An NPC shop lynx is 10k, isn't this entirely doable by using those as well without the need for repairs and guns?

[Bach]

4 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

I thought it couldn't start PvP so only thing it can pull is AI.   The one thing many mention is to just make there BR 10 like trade ships.   This will limit them from pulling any other big ships other than other basic cutters or traders.

As for the pulling the two fleets wouldn't the BR limit work for that?   I'm wondering how they are pulling fleets than.   Though those are some lucky folks we have hard enough time trying to find just the other nations fleets when we grind agro over in our area to be lucky enough to find our nation and the other together to pull them. 

So if the BR effects pull of AI ships too than dropping the Basic Cutters BR would solve this and have BR effect AI pull too.

 

The way it works is that the basic cutter drives around following a friendly NPC fleet. As soon as it crosses another NPC fleet of any other nation, counter grind is non-specific of nation attacked, the BCutter attacks the non-friendly NPC.  The friendly fleet BR adds to the cutter and the tag is made.  Inside the new battle the cutter just sails around holding the battle open as the only player in it. As the NPCs fight the port hostility is lowered as the friendly NPC ships score kills and assists. Essentially generating the same counter hostility on average as a x4 player group in frigates.

4 hours ago, Aegir said:

An NPC shop lynx is 10k, isn't this entirely doable by using those as well without the need for repairs and guns?

Yes, the mechanic would work the same. But at least the player has to buy the Lynx and if you chase him down in your own Lynx and sink him you get hostility and marks generated.  Plus the Lynx will not repair for free and doesn't come with free guns.  

[Guest]

Even so, it's easy to get sidetracked with whether it's an issue with the basic cutter or something else.

Rather than introducing yet another basic cutter restriction, how about if AI kills of other AI simply don't count towards hostility?

[Slamz]

Yeah maybe the easiest answer is just this:

Contention is based on XP generation.

[Bach]

6 minutes ago, Aegir said:

Even so, it's easy to get sidetracked with whether it's an issue with the basic cutter or something else.

Rather than introducing yet another basic cutter restriction, how about if AI kills of other AI simply don't count towards hostility?

I like your idea. The only reason I didn't propose it is because it runs counter to the player fleet concept.  It may well be a necessary evil and we just need to make it so npcs can't generate hostility. But it does sort or screw over those players that run NPC combat fleets as their style of play.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Bach

[Farrago]

I thought AI killing AI affecting hostility was removed from the game several months ago after it was discovered as an exploit. Player was starting these battles and then left.)

Regardless, some of these suggestions should be implemented. Basic Cutter's purpose should be getting us home after sinking and a tool for newbies to learn basic sailing and combat. 

[Diggled]

Really getting tired of bad game design and not thinking how people are going to abuse the system.  For the past 3-4 port battles, enemies have RISKED NOTHING in basic cutters and undo our contention efforts.  DEVS, please address this PRONTO

[Slamz]

Still a problem. No dev response. Is this the new official counter-contention method? In some areas (like Virgin Islands) this is more efficient than killing ships yourself because there are so many big fleets packed into those bay areas.

[Hethwill]

No kills, no assists, no hostility.

[Bach]

Bump.   NPC fighting NPCs should not generate hostility. Only players.

[Arsilon]

There is now a tribunal thread for possible alts using basic cutters to deny NPC fleets on the EU server.  

[Arsilon]

Admin also finally replied to another post on this issue:

Quote

we can remove hostility generation when npc fight npc. with the exception of the player fleet.