Privateer Class Ideas

[OTMatt]

Ive been excited about the idea of having privateers ingame. I honestly wish it came sooner than later but it seems to be low priority at the moment.

 

I guess in a way you can be a privateer right now but it just doesn't feel the same. Not to mention the hunting of AI loot is very boring and player merchant ships are difficult to find.

 

I have some suggestions on how to make ship hunting much more entertaining

1. You first join a nation and then become a privateer for other factions by Letter of Marque which can last on 3/7/30 day agreements.
2. Make deliveries travel to port by open world
3. Make captured ships required to travel back to port by open world with only skeleton crew on board.
4. Restrict privateers to frigates maximum. Those who wanted a legitimate pirate faction might actually enjoy this class instead.
5. Increase the profits for privateers, if I understand correctly privateers earned a much larger profit than those in the Navy. Maybe have the future government mechanics determine where to allocate profits of the highest priority enemies while nullifying profits for any allies.
6. Make ships that sail in waters far from land have a small chance of carrying very valuable resources and loot.
7. Allow players who captured ships or are making delivers to draw a set route for the ships to travel. This will encourage players to draw paths through open water bringing factions to fight out at sea rather than near lands and ports.
8. Allow the removal of guns to increase cargo capacity
9. Clan established companies and Clan Banks will have their resources moving around on the open world which again can be safely guarded by player set routes. Numerous players will need to work together and have their merchant ships follow similar routes if they want have an easier time protecting them from privateers.

With these 9 suggestions privateers will be a legitimate class that can earn a good profit. It also brings players to hunt and fight at seas.

 

If we had the option to draw paths for cargo/captured ships to travel then clans of each faction will agree to use very similar routes for guarding. Imagine several different clans using the same routes that their fleet has to guard. No one is going to let a Santisima sail out alone for a privateer to capture.

 

Post if you have any ideas that could make the privateer class unique and entertaining.

 

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William the Drake's detailed explanation on obtaining a Letter of Marque and rules that apply:

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/7495-letters-of-marque/?p=141252

[Sven Silberbart]

Before thinking about privateers und pirate stuff u need to make the career as trader much more interessing. Without the player-traders there are nothing to hunt. And coz of the traders has all the risk they really had to make large profit if they are successfully do a transport.

[OTMatt]

Before thinking about privateers und pirate stuff u need to make the career as trader much more interessing. Without the player-traders there are nothing to hunt. And coz of the traders has all the risk they really had to make large profit if they are successfully do a transport.

 

I wish I could figure out what that would be. I do not play on the economic part of the game so I'm not sure what to suggest.

 

The developers are very dedicated in making the economic game working and stable so I'm sure at some point before the privateers they will get it done. I'd like to think maybe in the future clans will be able to set up facilities in areas with rare resources that yield a huge profit. Perhaps it should be much more difficult to build a ship of the line as well requiring the same rare resources before it can be completed. Many merchant players will definitely work to get those resources moving around to build valuable ships for their nations.

[Eishen]

Ive been excited about the idea of having privateers ingame. I honestly wish it came sooner than later but it seems to be low priority at the moment.

 

I guess in a way you can be a privateer right now but it just doesn't feel the same. Not to mention the hunting of AI loot is very boring and player merchant ships are difficult to find.

 

I have some suggestions on how to make ship hunting much more entertaining

1. A neutral faction specifically for the privateer and their choice of alliance by Letter of marque that can be changed on a weekly basis
2. Make deliveries travel to port by open world
3. Make captured ships required to travel back to port by open world with only skeleton crew on board.
4. Restrict privateers to frigates maximum. Those who wanted a legitimate pirate faction might actually enjoy this class instead.
5. Double the profits for privateers, if I understand correctly privateers earned a much larger profit than those in the Navy.
6. Make ships that sail in waters far from land have a small chance of carrying very valuable resources and loot.
7. Allow players who captured ships or are making delivers to draw a set route for the ships to travel. This will encourage players to draw paths through open water bringing factions to fight out at sea rather than near lands and ports.
8. Allow the removal of guns to increase cargo capacity

With these 8 suggestions privateers will be a legitimate class that can earn a good profit. It also brings players to hunt and fight at seas.

 

If we had the option to draw paths for cargo/captured ships to travel then clans of each faction will agree to use very similar routes for guarding. Imagine several different clans using the same routes that their fleet has to guard. No one is going to let a Santisima sail out alone for a privateer to capture.

 

Post if you have any ideas that could make the privateer class unique and entertaining.

One of the things I love in this game is the absence of "player classess" , artificial cliches are bad design tools.

 

Being a privateer now is quite posible , and very entertainig indeed... you only need find a sweet spot -I have mine and I can assure player trader are not precisely scarce-.

 

Most of your propositions (in my opinion of course) are artificial restrictions that are even not need...as an example we do not need a ship zize limit...., reality provides for this.... try to roam in enemy water in your third rate and you will find why... Niagaras , Snows , privateers(ships) and even Linxes are great when you go out for real traders... fitted to the task of course.

 

Only real concern for me is traveling back anf forth  port.... as we cannot send to outpost the prize with its cargo every sucessfull capture needs a return in the trader to came aboard your own ship, sited in your nearest outpost, your third suggestion " Make captured ships required to travel back to port by open world with only skeleton crew on board" , could be a solution...even if it is not on open world but  a % of prize being lost in the travel back while carrying cargo.

[Hethwill]

This is an area of rule design I feel it is the most interesting to discuss and whether we want it or not it is intimately connected to Trader class as well.

After all Privateers existed due to armed trade wars.

 

Both classes must be developed together and not separate from all the rest, not to unbalance the established goodness.

 

Let's establish that Traders equal Players sailing dedicated trading vessels. Ignore NPC sheep.

 

The starting point should be to answer the following

 

- are there enough Traders to be intercepted ? If NO, changes must be thought of.

- in the wars going on, does Trader hunt have any real effect ? If NO, the same treatment.

 

As it stands at the moment, trader hunt is more of a RP thing for the privateer and freebooter, a hobby within the NA hobby.

 

The usual smart trader does its run and then teleports back to capital. This renders any trade interdiction impossible, generally speaking.

[OTMatt]

This is an area of rule design I feel it is the most interesting to discuss and whether we want it or not it is intimately connected to Trader class as well.

After all Privateers existed due to armed trade wars.

 

Both classes must be developed together and not separate from all the rest, not to unbalance the established goodness.

 

Let's establish that Traders equal Players sailing dedicated trading vessels. Ignore NPC sheep.

 

The starting point should be to answer the following

 

- are there enough Traders to be intercepted ? If NO, changes must be thought of.

- in the wars going on, does Trader hunt have any real effect ? If NO, the same treatment.

 

As it stands at the moment, trader hunt is more of a RP thing for the privateer and freebooter, a hobby within the NA hobby.

 

The usual smart trader does its run and then teleports back to capital. This renders any trade interdiction impossible, generally speaking.

 

Well this is why I suggested for captured ships and player deliveries to ship by open sea. I'm aware of merchant players being uncommon out in the open world.

 

A player does not necessarily have to be in a merchant ship for a privateer to have fun. What matters is that the cargo is important to the enemy and if it's important to the enemy then it's important to the privateer.

 

This is the reason I suggested to have player drawn trade routes that carries a clans valuable resources and captured ships. If this game had player companies and resources ferried back and forth then they will be highly valuable and must be guarded. This would link in with the clan banks that admin mentioned as well. A player should be able to send their resources to the bank either personally or by deliveries and clans constantly obtaining resources will have little time to deliver them personally especially without access to teleport. It would be a gold mine for privateers.

[Hethwill]

Kicked into continue work on the "rulebook". Had a draft started from a while ago and will spend a bit over it again.

Given the coming Lordships maybe it is a good time to brainstorm this and actually have them connected to Companies of trade which gives due importance to Traders as much as to the Privateers/Corsairs/Freebooters/Piracy.

[Hethwill]

Not a separate class/nation but specific mechanics for privateers under letters of marque and self employed freebooters. After all freelancer can sell its services as a mercenary during a war

[Eishen]

Letters of Marque  used as a mercenary contract can be quite effective to support actions in need / with low playerbase. .... 

 

   You validate the  contract on a time basis ( example: 3 days , 1 week, 1 month)  and the faction rewards you with extra income each time you "sent to admiralty" or sunk a ship of a nation in war with them.

 

To aid balance the exact % should be  heavily  relationed with the faction´s need of active players/war state of the nation -winning nations do not need corsairs/mercenary, heavy pressed ones will be more generous with them-

 

The amount wold be relationed with contract duration also ( breaking a letter of marque should be punished with a costly tax depending on time left in the contract)

 

Example: (take roughly on current perceived situation of server 1)

 

  An American "letter of marque" could reward pirate ships sank or taken with  150%-200%-250% of their valor (depending on lenght 3days/1week/1 month contract)

 

    An English "letter of marque" could reward spanish,french,dane or pirate ships sank or taken with  75%-95%-110% of their valor (depending on lenght 3days/1week/1 month contract) 

 

system can be made as complete as developers feel needed...perhaps paying more for "worst enemies"  etc...

 

For the record..this idea is heavily inspired by faction contracts in mechwarrior online community warfare

Edited May 17, 2016 by Eishen

[surfimp]

This subject is near and dear to my heart, as I know it is with many of you, and I've given it a good deal of thought over the past few months.

 

The current state of affairs in "The Life of a Privateer":

For my part, I have focused my time in Naval Action almost exclusively on privateering, and can speak from experience when I say that it is one of the most difficult, if not THE most difficult, ways to progress in this game under the existing mechanics. To whit, after 350hrs of play, I am only midway through rank 6 (Capitan de Fragata / 250 crew). This is not a complaint, and of course you don't need to level up very far to sail the typical privateering ships.

 

Privateering, under the current system, does not pay particularly well in terms of gold or XP, even if you focus on the far more reliable and more easily obtained rewards from capturing AI traders. Typically I will grape a Traders Cutter or Traders Lynx to decrew, which is pretty quick (usually only taking 3-5 broadsides) but results in 0 gold and around 3-4 XP... with the only benefit being that the ship will have 100% sails and thus be relatively safe from capture once I take command of it in the post battle screen. Rewards from selling the ship and its cargo to the Shop in a friendly port are relatively paltry, averaging probably $5,000 - $10,000 gold (guesstimate but probably not too far off the mark). Compared to other activities in game, these are extremely modest rewards, especially as compared to the current (and almost certainly not lasting) compass wood "exploit."

 

Hunting player traders, while TREMENDOUSLY FUN in terms of gameplay, is a mixed bag in terms of rewards, since they frequently teleport when fully laden with cargo, preventing even the possibility of their capture when not empty. There are some "happy hunting grounds" to be found, and I'm recently having better luck finding player traders with actual cargo aboard, but it's still quite difficult to interdict them (compared to AI traders) especially if they are sailing in Traders Snows, Le Gros Ventres and other relatively fast and/or hard to slow trade ships. There are a whole host of game mechanics which facilitate their escape and tilt the balance in the player trader's favor, and for my part, I find it far easier to win a 1v1 duel versus a player opponent than I do to capture a player trade ship in the vessels ostensibly intended for privateering- i.e. Lynx, Privateer, etc. It's easier if the player trader is him/herself sailing in a Traders Cutter or Traders Lynx, but those are a bit more rare... as the players quickly wise up to which ships are "safest."

 

Of course, I could myself begin hunting player traders in a fast Snow or similar square rigged vessel - but then I too take on greater risk of interdiction from the 6th and 5th rates that should rightly be patrolling and hunting me. I see this as a somewhat balanced gameplay design, although I think the Privateer and Lynx should have slightly better downwind performance to give them at least some chance of keeping a Traders Cutter (for example) tagged, to say nothing of a purpose-built (i.e. fast) Traders Brig or Traders Snow. It's nearly impossible right now with a Privateer, which is a shame considering the ship really has no other stated purpose in-game.

 

It wasn't till I started crafting and trading - and myself "exploiting" the current situation with Compass Wood and its influence on the availability of gold currency in game - that I was able to accumulate any sort of meaningful capital reserves (and by "meaningful", I mean I am finally approaching $1M in gold currency cash reserves - paltry by most standards, but FAR BETTER than when I could barely scrape together $100k - which was my state of affairs for a long time prior to initiating my crafting & trading activities).

 

I did this by setting up production buildings to provide myself with copper, silver, coal and compass wood, which - combined with a shipyard - allowed me to get quick cash (from Compass Wood) as well as crafting and selling Low Grade & Mid Grade Notes.  That cash, combined with the resources I've plundered from NPC traders as well as purchased at various ports, have allowed me to begin crafting my own ships, ensuring I have a ready supply of Lynxes, Privateers and similar to support my privateering addiction

 

What I think can be improved to make privateering a viable gameplay option:

1. Teleport with cargo needs to be removed from game and replaced with some sort of autopilot / NPC crew delivery option for those who don't want to personally haul cargo through the OW.
   
   Cargoes must move through the OW for privateering to be viable and for goods to be valued at their "true" price (as opposed to inflated by compass wood gold). Until this changes, far too many cargoes are getting 100% safe free transport, and this is the primary reason why privateering versus player traders is generally very difficult and time inefficient except for the most die hard of hunters who will do it regardless of the rewards or lack thereof.
    
2. NPC trader cargoes need to have an actual impact on port consumption, demand and resource availability.
   
   Currently port production / goods availability and NPC traders are completely independent, which means NPC traders and their cargoes are essentially just a resource & gold faucet with no corresponding sink and no impact on port consumption, demand or resource availability.
   
   What I suggest instead is that if NPC traders are interdicted, preventing their cargo from arriving at a port, then that port's demand for the interdicted goods should go up, with a corresponding price increase for those goods in that port.
    
3. Having NPC cargoes impact port demand will create opportunities for player traders to profit from scarcity as well as wage economic warfare on their enemies.
   
   This will provide a motivation for player traders to take on the risk required to service that demand. It will also create opportunities for privateers to remove goods from an enemy's economy, thereby facilitating economic / resource warfare - giving a true RVR purpose to privateering which is not possible currently because NPC traders and their cargoes have no actual, direct influence on resource availability or port demand/consumption.
   
   Essentially, the economy needs to become more player-driven, with goods moving between ports if and only if they are physically transported through the OW by either a player trader or an NPC trader. There need to be corresponding impacts on the price and availability of resources in ports if those traders (whether player or NPC) arrive in port or not.
    
4. Navies exist to protect commerce - not the other way around.
   
   Currently Naval Action starts from the idea of a navy and builds a nation's economy around supporting its existence. This is precisely backwards from how things work in the real world, where the navy is created to protect the commercial interests of a nation. By requiring cargoes to transit the OW and thereby subjecting them to risk, and by making NPC cargoes have an impact on port demand & resource availability, you create a situation in which commerce matters.
   
   A nation's navy will thus have a natural and compelling reason to protect that commerce, and to fight to ensure its trade routes remain free from interference. Likewise, a nation will have clear and compelling reason to attempt to interdict the trade of its enemies. The resulting conflict will result in more and more meaningful PVP with true RVR impacts for all player activities, not just those who choose to participate in port battles.
    

I am hopeful the devs grasp the above concepts and that we will see movement towards realizing them in time.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Sansón Carrasco

[OTMatt]

edit: ^^^^^ Read Sansons post first and you will understand the point of the topic.

 

-----------------------------------------------

 

 

 

Letters of Marque  used as a mercenary contract can be quite effective to support actions in need / with low playerbase. .... 

 

   You validate the  contract on a time basis ( example: 3 days , 1 week, 1 month)  and the faction rewards you with extra income each time you "sent to admiralty" or sunk a ship of a nation in war with them.

 

To aid balance the exact % should be  heavily  relationed with the faction´s need of active players/war state of the nation -winning nations do not need corsairs/mercenary, heavy pressed ones will be more generous with them-

 

The amount wold be relationed with contract duration also ( breaking a letter of marque should be punished with a costly tax depending on time left in the contract)

 

Example: (take roughly on current perceived situation of server 1)

 

  An American "letter of marque" could reward pirate ships sank or taken with  150%-200%-250% of their valor (depending on lenght 3days/1week/1 month contract)

 

    An English "letter of marque" could reward spanish,french,dane or pirate ships sank or taken with  75%-95%-110% of their valor (depending on lenght 3days/1week/1 month contract) 

 

system can be made as complete as developers feel needed...perhaps paying more for "worst enemies"  etc...

 

For the record..this idea is heavily inspired by faction contracts in mechwarrior online community warfare

 

 

That's a good way to encourage balancing to struggling nations and the profits are a good recommendation too. 150-250% profit would definitely bring in privateers to the US during these pirate steam rolls.

 

Maybe the letter of marque can automatically adjust depending on the number of ports the enemy takes from your faction on a day by day basis. So if a pirate takes 5 US ports a day then the profits will shoot up to 250% but as the US regains control of those ports from the pirates the rewards fall back to equilibrium and maybe even go in the opposite direction if the US begins to steamroll the pirates.

 

Thats just a temporary solution. If the Alliance system is implemented one day then the players can probably set the rewards for enemies and nullify the rewards for allies.

 

I think Hethwill and Borch are right as well that we might not really need a neutral faction and it's probably better that way. The only reason I suggested it is because I was hoping to restrict a player to using frigates by capping the rank at Captain. What if instead you agreed to a letter of marque then you can only sail in frigates at most during that period of time.

[surfimp]

The issue of large (in terms of player population) nations steamrolling smaller nations is really independent of specific gameplay modes, be they privateering or port battles or trading or whatever.

 

Meaning there needs to be a solution for that situation, and presumably the diplomacy & alliances mechanics will be at least part of that.

 

But those are really independent of the changes I'm talking about for privateering, which are really not so much about privateering per se, but more about making commerce matter in a way that it currently doesn't.

 

In my view, privateering and commerce are intimately related, and commerce in particular should be the thing that drives the possibility of a large and powerful navy, not the other way around.

 

In fact, these proposed changes to the way the economy works, if implemented alongside diplomacy and alliances, might be the perfect solution to the large zerg nation "problem"; i.e. all the smaller nations ally together and make the big nation bleed from a thousand privateer paper cuts. Can't build those fleets of first rates if all your traders got interdicted, you know what I mean?

Edited May 17, 2016 by Sansón Carrasco

[GrapeShot]

I've long argued that port battles are a deeply flawed game mechanic. The convoluted rules surrounding them -- timers, pulling flags, etc. -- make their artificial nature abundantly clear.

Instead, a robust economy with locating, developing and shipping resources would be a natural rationale for battle. Economics rather than conquest should drive the conflict.

The privateer and trade ship discussion above is excellent. Very good suggestions.

Edited May 17, 2016 by GrapeShot

[surfimp]

 Economics rather than conquest should drive the conflict.

 

... with the proviso that, if some kind of resource limitation were in effect, similar to labor hours and how I understand the coming crew changes to be setup, then conquest - to achieve access to further resources beyond the limitations of a nation's current resource pool - would be compelling on economic terms, rather than the current rather gamey "paint the map" basis.

 

In other words, for "popular" nations with large player populations, there should be some built-in brakes on just how many total resources are available, based on the number of ports they control. Once that entire production is getting consumed by the economy, then the only way to accommodate more production output is to conquer more ports and therefore gain more access to resources.

 

These limitations will have the effect of driving prices up within the popular nation, as well as encouraging them to spread far and wide... thereby exposing their commerce to a vast territory of potential depredation by the privateers of the small nations allied against the large popular nation.

 

Per current practice where certain resources - i.e. redwood, compass wood, etc. - are used only in the production of the largest ships - the large nation's significant naval power would rest upon the routine transport of these vitally important goods within their territory. Their lower ranked players would have a vested interest in protecting that trade and would be rewarding accordingly for ever privateer or pirate they were able to intercept. Their higher ranked players would focus on maintaining the network of ports using their SOLs to ensure their own, and their nation's, continued existence. Their traders would be treated as the vital and tremendously important machinery enabling the nation to survive.

 

Likewise the smaller nations could focus on crafting the smaller, cheaper vessels from comparatively far more common resources. These vessels would be used to prey upon the large nation's traders and thereby serve as an important check on that nation's power. The larger the large nation got, the harder it would be to sustain, whereas a small nation would always have a means by which to fight back.

 

Seems fun to me!

[OTMatt]

... with the proviso that, if some kind of resource limitation were in effect, similar to labor hours and how I understand the coming crew changes to be setup, then conquest - to achieve access to further resources beyond the limitations of a nation's current resource pool - would be compelling on economic terms, rather than the current rather gamey "paint the map" basis.

 

In other words, for "popular" nations with large player populations, there should be some built-in brakes on just how many total resources are available, based on the number of ports they control. Once that entire production is getting consumed by the economy, then the only way to accommodate more production output is to conquer more ports and therefore gain more access to resources.

 

These limitations will have the effect of driving prices up within the popular nation, as well as encouraging them to spread far and wide... thereby exposing their commerce to a vast territory of potential depredation by the privateers of the small nations allied against the large popular nation.

 

Per current practice where certain resources - i.e. redwood, compass wood, etc. - are used only in the production of the largest ships - the large nation's significant naval power would rest upon the routine transport of these vitally important goods within their territory. Their lower ranked players would have a vested interest in protecting that trade and would be rewarding accordingly for ever privateer or pirate they were able to intercept. Their higher ranked players would focus on maintaining the network of ports using their SOLs to ensure their own, and their nation's, continued existence. Their traders would be treated as the vital and tremendously important machinery enabling the nation to survive.

 

This would go very well with the current clan bank idea the developers had in mind. Many nations pooling together valuable resources. They will have to deliver them personally or send them out into the open world by deliveries. It would make a good first iteration.

[William the Drake]

Not a separate class/nation but specific mechanics for privateers under letters of marque and self employed freebooters. After all freelancer can sell its services as a mercenary during a war

 

Agreed, Privateers/privateering does not need to be  a class, rather one of many occupations that players can take part in. But here's the thing, privateering doesn't have to be just a one-person venture. Privateering can be a means for nationals to get in on harassing enemy trade while also benefiting from it. With admin talking about war and peace mechanics (especially the concept of "trade war") privateering may become more important.

 

Most importantly, privateering and the instituting of letters of Marque should serve as a major avenue for pirates to return to Nations, as well as vica versa.

• Letters of Marque

[OTMatt]

Agreed, Privateers/privateering does not need to be a class, rather one of many occupations that players can take part in. But here's the thing, privateering doesn't have to be just a one-person venture. Privateering can be a means for nationals to get in on harassing enemy trade while also benefiting from it. With admin talking about war and peace mechanics (especially the concept of "trade war") privateering may become more important.

Most importantly, privateering and the instituting of letters of Marque should serve as a major avenue for pirates to return to Nations, as well as vica versa.

• Letters of Marque

This is a good thread, I can imagine many pirates joining other nations under the Letter of Marque where they continually become legitimate and use this to their advantage? Its a fun side effect for the game because there's no other way for a pirate to ambush players at the moment.

I like the detailed explanation on how to register so I will add it to the original post.

Though I would really like to emphasize that a ship should be no larger than a frigate. It would be good for the overall immersion of a privateer did his job of capturing merchant ships rather than tangle with a nations fleets.