Fluffy Fishy Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 (edited) So I have been doing some research today and I have written down the number of ships active in the royal navy during the Napoleonic wars, I thought I would share the tables with everyone here so they can see how the royal navy composition changed during the period. While there isn't data to compare every ship, the years are roughly similar. Anyway here are the tables, enjoy First Rates In Service In Ordinary/Repairing Total 1793 1 4 5 1796 6 0 6 1799 4 2 6 1801 4 2 6 1805 6 1 7 1808 4 2 6 1811 5 2 7 1814 7 0 7 1815 0 8 8 Second Rates In Service In Ordinary/Repairing Total 1793 4 12 16 1796 16 0 16 1799 15 2 17 1801 14 2 16 1805 11 3 14 1808 7 4 11 1811 8 4 12 1814 5 3 8 1815 2 5 7 80 Gun Ships of the Line In Service In Ordinary/Repairing Total 1793 0 1 1 1796 5 0 5 1799 6 1 7 1801 5 3 8 1805 4 2 6 1808 7 0 7 1811 6 1 7 1814 1 4 5 74 Ship of the Line In Service In Ordinary/Repairing Total 1793 18 40 58 1796 48 8 56 1799 41 8 49 1801 39 11 50 1805 30 13 43 1808 47 4 51 1811 56 6 62 1814 64 3 67 Large 74 Ship of the Line In Service In Ordinary/Repairing Total 1793 1 2 3 1796 6 2 8 1799 17 3 20 1801 17 3 20 1805 19 5 24 1808 29 1 30 1811 24 4 28 1814 21 9 30 64 Ship of the Line In Service In Ordinary/Repairing Total 1793 2 28 30 1797 28 2 30 1799 22 4 26 1801 21 6 27 1804 8 12 20 1808 19 2 21 1810 11 1 12 1811 9 0 9 1814 1 0 1 50 Gun Ships In Service In Ordinary/Repairing Total 1793 7 5 12 1797 10 2 12 1799 10 0 10 1801 9 1 10 1804 7 3 10 1808 9 0 9 1810 7 0 7 1812 4 1 5 1814 2 2 4 18pdr Frigates In Service In Ordinary/Repairing Total 1793 11 6 17 1795 36 0 36 1797 45 2 47 1799 46 4 50 1801 68 1 69 1804 57 7 64 1808 76 15 91 1812 98 9 107 1814 103 11 114 12pdr Frigates In Service In Ordinary/Repair Total 1793 21 23 44 1797 50 9 59 1799 45 13 58 1801 43 1 44 1804 22 11 33 1808 35 8 43 1810 32 3 35 1812 20 5 25 1814 11 0 11 9pdr Frigates In Service In Ordinary/Repairing Total 1793 10 13 23 1797 20 3 23 1799 15 6 21 1801 10 1 11 1804 6 2 8 1808 8 1 9 1810 7 1 8 1812 3 0 3 1814 0 0 0 Post Ships 20-24s In Service In Ordinary/Repair Total 1793 5 7 12 1797 15 2 17 1801 21 2 23 1805 12 3 15 1808 21 2 23 1811 14 1 15 1814 25 4 29 Quarterdecked Sloops In Service In Ordinary/Repairing Total 1794 32 1 33 1797 43 2 45 1799 38 0 38 1801 34 0 34 1804 19 2 21 1808 49 3 52 1810 54 2 56 1812 50 1 51 1814 43 1 44 Flush Decked Sloops In Service In Ordinary/Repairing Total 1794 0 0 0 1797 10 0 10 1799 23 0 23 1801 22 3 25 1804 37 0 37 1808 27 7 34 1810 19 2 21 1812 12 1 13 1814 9 1 10 Brig Sloops In Service In Ordinary/Repairing Total 1794 18 2 20 1797 33 3 36 1799 37 0 37 1801 45 0 45 1804 33 0 33 1808 103 2 105 1810 169 0 169 1812 144 1 145 1814 155 3 158 Total Ships in Service First Rates Second Rates 80 guns 74 guns 74 guns (Large) 64 Guns 50 Guns 18pdr Frigate 12pdr Frigate 9pdr Frigate 20-24 gun Post Ships Quarterdecked Sloops Flush Decked Sloops Brig Sloops 1793 5 16 1 58 3 30 12 17 44 23 12 1794 33 0 20 1795 36 1796 6 16 5 56 8 1797 30 12 47 59 23 17 45 10 36 1799 6 17 7 49 20 26 10 50 58 21 38 23 37 1801 6 16 8 50 20 27 10 69 44 11 23 34 25 45 1804 20 10 64 33 8 21 37 33 1805 7 14 6 43 24 23 1808 6 11 7 51 30 21 9 91 43 9 52 34 105 1810 12 7 35 8 56 21 169 1811 7 12 7 62 28 9 15 1812 5 107 25 3 29 51 13 145 1814 7 8 5 67 30 1 4 114 11 0 44 10 158 1815 8 7 The things that jump out to me from this data is the treatment of large classes of 74 being noted down under a different section to the regularly sized ships, these tables also show the phasing out of the 64 gun ship of the line in favour for the larger 3rd rates and the inflationary pressures also retiring the 9 and 12 pounder frigates. The other thing that really jumps out to me is the explosion of Brig Sloops, going from just 20 in 1794 to 158 by 1814. My other interpretations is how few ships were in ordinary during the time frame, its almost the entire royal navy being active between 1795 and 1815. Anyway I hope you guys have fun dissecting the information, hopefully I will dig out some more in the future, although the only information I have immediately at hand is the stuff for venice, which covers a much longer time period but is a lot harder to dissect, and sadly doesn't have the entirety of the fleet, the data I have for Venice doesn't display the numerous Galleys or half galleys serving in the fleet, only the round ships. Edited December 11, 2016 by Fluffy Fishy 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JollyRoger1516 Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 It is a nice list but may I ask where did you take all that info from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Fishy Posted December 10, 2016 Author Share Posted December 10, 2016 Apologies I forgot to state the source, its extracted from a couple of Robert Gardiner's books, mainly Warships of the Napoleonic Era, its a fantastic book and well worth the read. The information is really deep and well set out, the only drawback is the book is about 30x32cm so can be a bit unwieldy, especially as it has a couple of double page fold outs, leaving you with over a metre of paper to play with. I'd recommend buying it to anyone who doesn't have it already 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoopy Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 I hope the SoLs-should-be-rare crowd takes a good luck at those numbers hehe 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Fishy Posted December 11, 2016 Author Share Posted December 11, 2016 (edited) 14 hours ago, Snoopy said: I hope the SoLs-should-be-rare crowd takes a good luck at those numbers hehe I have a snippet from Spain but only the data from 1794 though, you might like the numbers from that even more. 1794 In Service Disarmed Total Ships of the Line 80-112 guns 14 6 20 68-74 guns 39 11 50 54-64 guns 8 1 9 Total Ships of the Line 61 18 79 Frigates 40-42 guns 5 1 6 30-36 guns 39 8 47 Total Frigates 44 9 53 Other Xebecs (14-36) 5 5 10 Corvettes (30) 2 0 2 Sloops (18-22) 6 1 7 Luggers (16) 1 0 1 Avisos (16) 2 0 2 Brigs (8-24) 21 0 21 Baladras (12-18) 2 0 2 Galleys (3) 0 7 7 Total Others 39 13 52 Total Warships 144 40 184 As you can see from above the Spanish fleet is almost half Ships of the line, this table shows the combative navy only, during this point the Spanish navy also maintained 43 auxiliary and support ships, and kept 6 more disarmed. Edited December 11, 2016 by Fluffy Fishy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoopy Posted December 11, 2016 Share Posted December 11, 2016 (edited) Well yeah I know, Spain went all-big EDIT: Spain is an outlier though Edited December 11, 2016 by Snoopy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theprof739 Posted December 11, 2016 Share Posted December 11, 2016 2 hours ago, Snoopy said: I hope the SoLs-should-be-rare crowd takes a good luck at those numbers hehe I just think 1st and 2nd rates should be more uncommon in game. The data show less than 25 1st and 2nd rates total, vs roughly 100 3rd rates. I would not at all be upset to see 4 Bellonas for every Vic or Santi in the game. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoopy Posted December 11, 2016 Share Posted December 11, 2016 Aye, battles with mostly third rates and the occasional three decker would be glorious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JollyRoger1516 Posted December 11, 2016 Share Posted December 11, 2016 7 hours ago, Fluffy Fishy said: Apologies I forgot to state the source, its extracted from a couple of Robert Gardiner's books, mainly Warships of the Napoleonic Era, its a fantastic book and well worth the read. The information is really deep and well set out, the only drawback is the book is about 30x32cm so can be a bit unwieldy, especially as it has a couple of double page fold outs, leaving you with over a metre of paper to play with. I'd recommend buying it to anyone who doesn't have it already Aye Gardiner is a decent collection of information. And as Snoopy stated SOLs made up a fair bit of the ships of the time. In anyway I mostly detest the whole half arsed realism argument. If you want realism then go full Silent Hunter on this game and put travel time and everything in. Or don't throw that argument around every bloody corner that doesn't effect you. Realism shouldn't block content from the palyers - thats not the point! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hethwill Posted December 11, 2016 Share Posted December 11, 2016 3 hours ago, JollyRoger1516 said: Aye Gardiner is a decent collection of information. And as Snoopy stated SOLs made up a fair bit of the ships of the time. In anyway I mostly detest the whole half arsed realism argument. If you want realism then go full Silent Hunter on this game and put travel time and everything in. Or don't throw that argument around every bloody corner that doesn't effect you. Realism shouldn't block content from the palyers - thats not the point! Worldwide, not cluttered up in the west indies Just check the numbers for Jamaica Station and Windward. They make up 2% of that list at the top of their force. Large scale operations were conducted by the Atlantic Fleet which would move from the Old Country to the west indies, do their job and then back to Europe. It is a game, we all understand that. Now tell me they could grind their way up in the ranks without showing some backbone to be standing atop a 74. . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Fishy Posted December 11, 2016 Author Share Posted December 11, 2016 I originally opened this topic to talk about the strength and changes to the composition of the royal navy, I have now edited it to hopefully become more of an open discussion, it would be fantastic to see more data on more navies to compare fully, if anyone has the time and resources to post more please do. I will work my way through the information I have and post some for Venice over the next few days, but would love to see what others can contribute for other nations, we seem to have a lot of love for the French, Dutch and US navy floating around these forums and it would be great to build up and compare our information with each other, its probably best to keep within the time period by the game if we can but by all means extend it out from the Napoleonic wars. I look forwards to seeing anything else people can come up with Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelSandwich Posted December 11, 2016 Share Posted December 11, 2016 I felt obliged to facilitate some Dutch data, to spice up the comparison. In order to understand/appreciate the development of the Dutch fleet, you have to take into account that from 1780 to 1784 the Dutch fleet fought a hard war again the Royal Navy. After the Battle at the Dogger Bank, the Dutch decided they needed to strengthen their fleet. A building program was initiated, which would continued even after the end of the war. In the year 1782 the following ships would be constructed: Admirality of the Maze: 1x70-gun, 1x60-gun, 1x40-gun Admirality of Amsterdam: 2x70-gun, 5x60-gun Admirality of the Noorderkwartier: 4x60-gun Those ships would be finished eind of 1782, or early 1783, therefore they are included in the overview of 1782 down below. After years of building, in 1788 the fleet was looking as such: As we can see, the general state of the fleet is decent, with only a few 'useless' vessels. After the invasion of the Netherlands, the Dutch fleet spend most of their time in port being blockaded. The smaller vessels that tried their luck got hunted down with exceptional success. I.e., the fleet was slowly bleeding strength. In 1797 the Battle of Camperdown happened, in which the remaining strength of the Dutch fleet was broken. A majority of the ships got either captured or sunk. In the years after the Dutch tried to rebuild their fleet, with little success. The Dutch would never regain their naval might again. To give a deeper insight in how little of the Dutch navy survived the napoleonic wars, i have specified the graph into pre- and post-Camperdown ships. FYI, the majority of small ships is not included in here (smaller than 18-gun vessels). As you can see the fleet effectively was to be completely rebuild after years of naval warfare and the Battle at Camperdown. I will try to include more tally's whenever possible. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Fishy Posted December 12, 2016 Author Share Posted December 12, 2016 As I promised, I have spent my afternoon processing the figures for Venice, sadly I don't have a huge bank of information talking about the Venetian Fleet wholly, and apart from the records dealing with the French captures after the Venetian surrender in 1797 its missing out the numbers for the Xebecs and Galleys. There are several historical mentions of Venice using their stock of Galleass, Galleys, Galliotts and Xebecs during its hostilities against the North African pirates between 1784-1792 and Venice kept an effective fleet of these types of ships throughout the late period of the Republic. Also during this time Venice Maintained a commercial fleet between 300-350 merchantmen, which facilitated Venice in being the strongest trader in the Eastern Mediterranean and Red Sea Regions. The important things to keep in mind following these charts are that the covered shipbuilding facilities at the Venetian Arsenal often meant that ships were constructed over long periods of time, some ships even spent over 50 years broken into parts, protected from the weather and finished off when they were required. The other things that are worthwhile thinking about is the naval reforms and shipbuilding programmes brought in by Angelo Emo, and his admiralty during the war mentioned above. I haven't sorted the individual ships into their classes, just the number of guns so for example there are 2 models each of the larger ships, The 70s consist of the Leon Trionfante class and the "1780" class, where as the 66s are San Carlo Borromeo Class, and Fama Class ships, where technically speaking the San Carlo Borromeo is a ship of the line, and the Fama class is a Fregata Grossa, so have quite different fleet roles. For more informations on the ships and models themselves please visit the thread in the shipyard dedicated to Venetian ships, I have also written some information around the Admiral/Naval Reformer Angelo Emo and the Venetian Arsenal should you be interested. I will leave some links at the bottom for those who may be interested. 1780 In Service Under Construction Total 70 5 7 12 66 5 5 40 4 0 4 38 1 0 1 Total 10 12 22 1784 In Service Under Construction Total 70 4 7 11 66 1 8 9 40 4 0 4 38 2 0 2 32 0 1 1 24 0 2 2 Total 11 18 29 1786 In Service Under Construction Total 70 4 5 9 66 1 8 9 40 4 0 4 38 2 1 3 32 0 1 1 24 2 0 2 Total 13 15 28 1790 In Service Under Construction Total 70 4 7 11 66 1 8 9 44 0 2 2 42 0 1 1 40 4 0 4 38 2 2 4 32 0 1 1 24 1 0 1 Total 12 21 33 1794 In Service Under Construction Total 70 5 6 11 66 3 6 9 44 0 2 2 42 0 3 3 40 4 0 4 38 4 0 4 32 1 2 3 24 1 0 1 Total 18 19 37 Ships Captured By France in 1797 Arsenal in Ordinary or Construction Arsenal in Service Piave Estuary Dalmatian Fleet Corfu Total Ships of the Line 9 1 1 0 3 14 Fregate Grossa 4 1 1 0 1 7 Fregate Leggre 7 1 1 0 4 13 Bombard 1 0 0 0 0 1 Galleys/Galleotts 1 3 7 13 *Unknown *24 Ceremonial Galley 1 0 0 0 0 1 Brig Cutter 2 1 2 0 0 5 Golette 0 1 0 0 0 1 Xebec 1 8 0 8 *Unknown *17 Felucca 0 4 0 9 *Unknown *13 Floating Battery 0 1 0 0 0 1 Sailed Gunboats 8 11 0 0 5 24 Rowed Gunboats 0 31 4 0 0 35 Total 34 63 16 30 *13 *156 The *Unknown is used where the Venetian fleet stationed at Corfu having learned the news of the surrender of Venice took their ships and evacuated, they also obscured and destroyed the records so as not to be recaptured and forced into service by the French, because of this its currently impossible to see the Venetian fleet in its entirety at the death of the republic, Corfu served as the largest naval station outside Venice and would have had a substantial fleet stationed there, so its likely there was a slightly larger sized fleet positioned here when compared to the Dalmatian fleet, probably consisting of around 40 ships, where its likely that again we see around 10 Galleys/Galleotts, 10 Xebecs and 10 Feluccas, however this is all speculative. Anyway I hope you enjoyed this second instalment of graphs and data. Thank you for reading, as I hinted earlier, I will post the links below. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenakha Kan Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Fishy Posted January 9, 2017 Author Share Posted January 9, 2017 (edited) I have got myself another couple of Composition tables, one is for Mediterranean Galley fleets, the other is for comparing the ratio between fighting ships and cruisers (5th and 6th rates) its quite a hefty sum of information and will hopefully make some people happy here. This is my days work from being stuck at home while a plumber is replacing my water tank, judging by how much work I have actually got out the way I should have handymen over more often The First table will be the Mediterranean Galley table showing the gradual decrease of Galley usage over the age of sail, as riggings and hulls improved, galleys became somewhat superseded by various sailing ships and their responsibilities were taken over by things like frigates and corvettes, this shows their gradual decline. Mediterranean Galley Fleets 1650 1670 1700 1720 1740 1760 1790 1800 Venice 70* 60* 50* 40* 30* 20* 20* - The Ottoman Empire 70-100* 60* 30* 30* 15* 15* 5 0* France 36 25 42 15 15 10 0 0 Spain 30-40* 30* 30 7* 7 0 4 2 The Papal State 5 5 4 6 4 5 5 0 Malta 6 7 8 5 4 4 4 - Genoa 10 10* 6* 6 6* 6* 6* - Tuscany 5 4 3-4 2-3 2* 0 0 0 Savoy/Sardinia 2* 2* 2* 2* 4 0* 0 0 Austria 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 Naples - - - 0 4 3 0 0 Rough Totals 220-260 200 170 120 90 60 45 6 The * marks estimated numbers Here is a table that is probably more of interest to the people here though, its the Fleet Composition table, showing the ratio and percentage of Battleships (in this case 4th to 1st rates) to Cruisers (5th and 6th rates). Like my other tables I have done my best to create the most practical user experience. I hope this goes somewhat further to allow for better understanding of fleet compositions and where it puts navies and what ships they sailed in the grand scheme of things. Changes of Cruiser Amount in Fleet Composition Britain Ratio Battlefleet:Cruisers Britain % France Ratio Battlefleet:Cruisers France % Denmark Battlefleet:Cruisers Denmark % Sweden Battlefleet:Cruiser Sweden % 1651 54:43 44% 1660 76:78 51% 1661 11:6 35% 1677 76:24 24% 1674 95:33 26% 1685 108:19 15% 1688 100:8 7% 1689 112:33 23% 1702 130:45 26% 1700 114:26 19% 1700 32:9 22% 1700 39:10:00 20% 1720 27:10 27% 1715 36:14 28% 1715 29:13:00 31% 1739 124:51 29% 1745 28:8 22% 1745 24:8 25% 1753 132:78 37% 1750 50:26 34% 1777 142:102 42% 1774 64:37 37% 1780 78:67 46% 1783 197:175 47% 1786 67:77 53% 1785 32:18 36% 1785 26:17 40% 1793 78:98 56% 1805 199:222 53% 1805 20:14 41% 1805 13:12 48% 1814 50:36 42% 1825 110:118 52% 1827 34:34 50% 1849 68:89 57% 1847 21:31 60% I hope you enjoyed these two new tables, they are both taken with data from the books "Nelson's Navy: The Ships, The Men and the Organisation" Thank you for reading Edited January 9, 2017 by Fluffy Fishy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelSandwich Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 I have obtained the respective numbers for the dutch navy from the years 1792, 1797 and 1801. Once im done processing that, i will repost the earlier into a collective and show the years: 1782, 1788, 1792, 1797, 1801, 1806. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hethwill Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 Would be interesting to have the numbers from 1680 to 1820 and get the average for both Navy and Maritime trade companies / private Armateurs. Great job guys, this is excellent information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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