Heavy weather management/ sail set for conditions

[Ryan21]

I havn't seen a dedicated thread on this topic yet so here goes, I think this is an important topic that deserves some thought. 

 

From what I have seen the graphics for sea states and the ocean in this game look absolutely phenomenal, couldn't have imagined them better in a game. 

 

That being said, I believe the game should offer a realistic view of sail carried in various conditions, I dont think this would be diffcult as you would simply have to shorten sail with whatever sail management system there is, there should be a wind indicator in knots, and maybe it should warn you if you are pushing the rig too far by turning progressively yellow and red, from green.  The consequences being blowing out a sail or two and not being able to immediately reset them.   Perhaps after taking in the topgallants there could be a topsail reefing option where the animation is just that the yards slide down to the lower position and the sail shrinks with the yard.  To give a tangible explanation to this I have scanned a couple pages of Seamanship in the age of sail pertaining to this topic.  The one is two different naval opinions matched to the beaufort wind scale as to what sail should be carried in each wind condition on a fully rigged ship.  And the other is a pictorial description of the order of shortening and further reefing sail.  There is some really solid data in this section of the book that I think may help the game a great deal.

 

https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1/1507864_10153808644890123_1415099792_n.jpg

 

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/t31/q71/s720x720/1966306_10153808644930123_941173984_o.jpg

 

please let me know if these links work.

[Ned Loe]

they do work thanks!

[admin]

I 

 

https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1/1507864_10153808644890123_1415099792_n.jpg

 

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/t31/q71/s720x720/1966306_10153808644930123_941173984_o.jpg

 

please let me know if these links work.

 

We use this book a lot. 

Unfortunately at this stage it is going to be impossible to do such detailed animations. It will kill you FPS in a large battle. We have not yet worked on its optimization. At a later stage we might do it. 

 

Also a gentle reminder ))) we are not making a full simulator like "train simulator" with all the buttons and levers. + Multiplayer games have their limitations. 

[maturin]

Hold on, could you be more specific as to what animations are too stressful?

 

Obviously no-one is expecting a different sail animation for every level of the Beaufort scale.

 

But things like reefing or blown-out sails couldn't be too demanding, could they? Because they are relatively rare events, or short animations that are over with quickly.

 

I really think that setting individual sails and reefing them should be an option. It doesn't need to have a big impact on gameplay, and the effects don't have to be modeled in a detailed way. But I have to stress how happy you'll make the purists. We know that there's not going to be a full sailing simulator. But if the vessels look right, we can roleplay a little, and an immersed player will forgive any number of small flaws and omissions. It'll keep the forum's loudest voices happy so they'll keep giving useful feedback instead of complaining and whining.

[Ryan21]

Even if the animation is not detailed at all, there should be consequences for carrying too much sail, every time I play Empire total war it frustrates me especially because of this.  Will increased wind speed affect ship speed at all base on sail set?  I know its not going to be a simulation but I think many people would agree with me that if you can just set everything to the sky and sail through a gale with no repercussions the game would lose much of it's appeal.  

[tater]

I'd say that I'm (surprisingly, perhaps) a little in the middle. I care less about the eye candy of what the sails look like, than that the outcome of sailing is realistic. So blown sails, sprung masts, etc I'm all for, even if abstracted. I suppose I'd like it if you watched a ship beating into port from a distant hill in game as someone like Ryan who actually does it, even if you could barely make out the sails, would the ship be moving as you'd expect given the wind, etc. If a real sailor would watch and wonder how she's going the way she's going… not good.

[admin]

Hold on, could you be more specific as to what animations are too stressful?

 

Obviously no-one is expecting a different sail animation for every level of the Beaufort scale.

 

But things like reefing or blown-out sails couldn't be too demanding, could they? Because they are relatively rare events, or short animations that are over with quickly.

 

 

There are 2 standard situations 

• Sails lowered
• Sails furled 

These are easy and we can have multiple options of lowered or furled sails everywhere on the ship. From just 1 spanker or top gallant to full sail plan and any combination..

 

Everything in between increases price geometrically. 

So no reefing in the foreseeable future.

Sid Meier said once - 70% of gameplay is in your head anyway. Maybe this is similar. 

[Barberouge]

I read in my youth comics that to gain speed, one could throw some cannons over board. How much could be thrown over board without destabilising the ship ? I also read that one could "unnotch" the masts (making a more significant area affected by wind, but making the masts more fragile to gusts in the process). Is this procedure real or fictional ?

 

Also I read somewhere else that it's not always best to put as much sail area as possible, because too much heel sometimes decreases speed (depending on the hull shape).

 

Would you confirm those Ryan ?

[Ryan21]

You could throw guns overboard but you would have too throw them equally off both sides or you run the risk of destabilizing. You certainly never un notch? The masts when sailing, the masts always stay firmly locked in place. The last one is correct though, in some situations she can be pressed down and heeling to much, and not making good way for the wind condition, sail trim is very important.

Also throwing things overboard would probably help you more in lighter winds, in a decent wind, with the correct sail set a ship is limited by its hull speed, a displacement hull creates a wave that the ship is always in. The trough of, depending on hull length and bow shape the wave is longer or shorter, so little speedboats go really fast by overcoming their bow wave and climbing onto a plane. Sailing ships can't do that unless they are surfing down large swells in a gale or storm so they will only go as fast as that wave created by their hull, the longer and sleeker the hull the faster they can go. Lady washing tons hull speed is about nine knots, so if I'm going along at 9 knots with all sail set and I start to throw things overboard she won't go any faster, because she is limited by her hull size and shape, Niagaras hull speed is about 15, most decent sized frigates were about. 12 to 14.

[Marion van Ghent]

I may not be Ryan but I can provide studied answers to most of these questions   
 

I read in my youth comics that to gain speed, one could throw some cannons over board. How much could be thrown over board without destabilising the ship ?

 

 

One could indeed gain speed by tossing overboard cargo, stores, guns, etc. But there's no set formula: how much you can toss (and how much you gain thereby) depends in large part on how heavily or lightly loaded your ship is already, and where that "extra" weight is.

 

That is to say, if you're a merchantman -- lightly armed, and using cargo as the bulk of your ballast -- you won't be able to discard much to get away. Your guns, easily, because they're high relative to the centre of mass of your ship and losing weight there tends to increase your ship's "stiffness" -- resistance to heel, etc. That garners you a couple dozen tons at most. You could toss any cargo stored on your main deck too, but that will tend to be light and not get you much; but the more weight you get rid of up top, the more you can dig deeper into the hold to toss off water barrels and other heavier cargo and stores and not have your ship become too imbalanced.

 

If you're loaded well past your load waterline (LWL), in theory you could throw away perhaps a hundred tons and greatly improve your sailing qualities; but that would take significant time and risk, as being a merchantman you're likely short on hands. And your ship -- being a bluff-bowed, flat-bottomed cargo hauler spreading much less canvas than a warship of equivalent tonnage -- can only go so fast.

 

The same general principle holds for warships, but here you have more guns to remove and generally less cargo; your ballast, instead of being primarily your water stores and heavy cargo, is in the form of iron "pigs" laid along the bottom. So in some respects you have more room to manoeuvre here, but in others you don't: you're less likely to start over-loaded, which means you'll have less relative tonnage to discard. But it's easier to do as you've the crew for it.

 

It also depends on which way you're wanting to go relative to the wind. Travelling therewith, you can probably get by discarding more tonnage than on a reach: your ship's tendency to pitch will only increase slightly compared to her tendency to roll or heel, so in the short term you can gain more relative speed (as you won't have to take canvas in until the wind comes more abeam).

 

Just to ballpark it, and without doing any of the necessary calculations on any typical merchantman or warship, I'd say you'd be able to gain at most 5-10% more speed with a heavy-laden merchantman and 2-5% with a warship before your returns start diminishing. 

 

I also read that one could "unnotch" the masts (making a more significant area affected by wind, but making the masts more fragile to gusts in the process). Is this procedure real or fictional ?

 

 

I'm not really sure what you mean by "unnotch' the masts. But in larger ships the lower masts are quite solidly and deeply rooted and held by lots of standing rigging, and the upper masts can only be up, down, or stowed completely on deck. Somehow stretching the masts does not also stretch the sail's area 

 

The only "unnotching" I can think of is with small craft -- particularly tartanes and barques -- whose masts were often stepped in a "tabernacle" that acted as a giant pivot. And that would lower the whole mast (for trawling or passing under bridges and the like)... that definitely would slow you down! 

 

Also I read somewhere else that it's not always best to put as much sail area as possible, because too much heel sometimes decreases speed (depending on the hull shape).

 

Oh, definitely -- and not just heel. The upper sails on the foremast, and lower sails on the after masts, tend to push a ship's bow down, especially when running with the wind. That will make a ship sluggish. This is why one very often sees ships in art of the period sailing with a fore course, main and mizzen topsail, whatever headsails she carries, and little else -- the fore course and headsails in particular tend to lift the bow and improve handling, which effect can easily be negated by spreading too much canvas higher up.

 

EDIT: Oops, Ryan beat me

[Barberouge]

Thanks for your answers. I can't find the comic yet but next time I'll go to the library I'll try to find and translate the quote. Maybe it had something to do with the standing rigging.

[Marion van Ghent]

I also forgot to mention: dumping weight was, on the whole, better saved for getting off shoals/sandbars and the like. I couldn't tell you how many times I've seen accounts of "lightening the ship" to save it from that pernicious reef or bar; but I can only think of a couple instances where a ship did the same to gain speed, and at that mainly in the Napoleonic Wars and War of 1812.

[Baggywrinkle]

Come across fishing vessels, particularly, dropping topmasts in a blow. But we're talking 1870s+ cutters largely, seemed a lesser feature on ketches. Sometimes see the same thing with bowsprits being reefed. Certainly when I was on sailing trawlers we barely ever bothered reefing either topmast or bowsprit for weather. However, just wanted to pass on that it was a known and done thing

Baggy

[tater]

From a  practical standpoint, this seems unlikely to be a huge concern anyway (as much as I'd like to see details like this). In a storm, visibility range should be pretty short. That means that in "map mode" (open world mode, whatever we call it) you'll not detect another unit unless you are virtually on top of it. It'd be like a periscope patrol with no radar, no smoke, and no hydrophone. Coming within a few nm of a target would be pure luck. In heavy weather, combat seems like a bad idea (opening gunports with seas well above deck?).

[Ryan21]

I think it should be a priority that visibility is severely limited in some storms, there should be different storm types.  Some hard gales will happen and it will be clear with good visibility and no moisture in the air.  And sometimes in a nasty storm the sea just looks like whipped white smoke with very little visibility, with rain, sleet and snow.  Heres a really good example.  There should also be increased turbulence in the water around the vessel, more wake, more froth going down the sides, and more spray and bow wave.

 

 

There are a couple good examples in history of single ships of the line being attacked by frigates usually only in heavier weather, when the ship of the line had to keep it's lower gunports closed and was also a poorer sailor especially in heavy weather where a nimble lighter frigate with her main battery above the waterline could run circles around her and pick away.  Look at Captain Sir Edward Pellew's action with the Droits de l'Homme.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_of_13_January_1797

[Brigand]

At what point would wooden ships just be destroyed?

 

 

I do realise that this a moderns ship with an engine, etc, etc. But those weather conditions would have existed in the age of sail, I can't image it being any good to your life expectancy.

 

~Brigand

[Ryan21]

In the wind condition of your video (approximately Beaufort twelve, above 64 knots) a ship would simply run before the wind and ride it out, or heave to and stop the ship and wait for the system to pass.  Unless a wave broke on the stern of your ship the force was much less than what this modern ship is enduring by pounding straight into it with the motor.

 

Wooden ships can take a surprising pounding.  As the weather increases and you are sailing close hauled to reach your destination there comes a point where you can no longer make way close hauled and you must turn and run before the wind with as much sail as possible to avoid waves breaking over the stern, this is called scudding.  With good sail management and early reefing a stout frigate could survive most beaufort wind conditions, it rarely happened that a ships hull was "destroyed" as they were quite strong, and the timbers actually flexed.  Ships would be truly destroyed by rocks or shoals mostly.  Sinking in open sea storm conditions was usually cause by downflooding, more water coming in than could be pumped out, or gunports sealing improperly causing flooding.  Broaching or capsizing was a huge concern in storms, you couldn't sail on a beam reach in a full storm because you would very soon broach, so provided you can keep the ship running before the sea, or broad reaching at least, these ships stood up to alot.  These ships were developed over hundreds of years of trial and error and by this point in history were very strong, and with good sail management could ride out just about any weather condition.  So providing you kept your ship upright and pumped more water out than was coming in, you would generally come out of it ok.  These ships  could also heave to, to stop and ride out severe storms, there were many different tactics, but generally unless a ship was old and rotten it didnt simply fall apart.

 

if your sail management was poor it could have dire consequences, or if a squall hit quickly before you could take in sail, losing masts or mast sections drastically affected your ships stability, and any mast lost doesnt just go away, it hangs in the sea, and the bigger the mast the more drag it will create.  Many ships foundered by losing a mast and not cutting it away quick enough, the resultant drag slowed the ship down and made her unmanueverable and she would be swamped by huge following seas.

 

 

In figure 490 you can see what scudding looks like, this is what would have been done in the video you showed.  It was very dangerous, and if you let her get slightly off course you could be brought by the lee, which is what is happening in the top figure.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/t1/1655862_10153848913120123_2006776638_n.jpg

 

Captain Bligh of the bounty attempting to round Cape Horn experienced the inability to make close hauled progress, in around 30 days he made something in the nature of 80 miles of progress, and there were times where he had to turn and run because the sea became too great to sail close hauled.

 

Check this out.

 

 

[maturin]

Oi. Those might be the best videos yet. Watch those shrouds go limp on the roll.

Also, did they have the spritsail reefed asymmetrically?

[Ryan21]

You reef the spritsail diagonally in nasty weather so the lower or lee side doesnt drag in the ocean.  Its pretty neat, Lady Washington had a tiny spritsail but still had the diagonal reef bands.

http://static.squarespace.com/static/52014f90e4b0ebb2d2a8c420/t/52d55166e4b077750334f044/1389711720094/

[tater]

Amazing videos.

[Ryan21]

She and the new Frigate Hermione are the greatest wooden ships ever built of this age.  I hope to get on one of them in the next couple years.  They are simply amazing.

[Barberouge]

Thanks for your answers. I can't find the comic yet but next time I'll go to the library I'll try to find and translate the quote. Maybe it had something to do with the standing rigging.

 

I found the quote back. A damaged ship is trying to escape from a Navy frigate (running). It lost its fore topmast, and is full of water but the pumps remove some of it slowly. The captain is giving orders to gain maximum speed. "Décoincez les mâts ! Largez les genoppes des haubans ! Videz les pièces d'eau avant et arrière ! Et balancez tous nos canons à la mer, sauf les pièces de chasse et de retraite !"

 

Approximate translation: "Unjam the masts ! Hook out the shroud ropes ! Empty the front and rear water tanks ! And throw all our guns into the sea, except the chase and escape pieces !" The "shroud ropes" are also translated as "temporary rackings", and they are ropes linking 2 other ropes. The water in the hull creates the ballast.

 

The principles may not be completely realistic since it is a comics, but it is based on historical researches. The French name is "Le Démon des Caraïbes", the English one is "Redbeard - The Broken Compass".

 

I couldn't find any English text with the translations I got, although I found French ones talking about "unjamming the masts": http://books.google.fr/books?id=sYhBAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA17&lpg=PA17&dq=genoppes&source=bl&ots=OOe-Q4_lyh&sig=b0V6ubhNQ0QCWY9K5fVxIIX2rM8&hl=fr&sa=X&ei=N-FLU-noJeWX1AXdooHwDA&ved=0CFIQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=genoppes&f=false and http://books.google.fr/books?id=emhGAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA333&lpg=RA1-PA333&dq=genoppes&source=bl&ots=1shVUMx_cP&sig=IorW3iVohCja71nbgMaHhrjxGPs&hl=fr&sa=X&ei=N-FLU-noJeWX1AXdooHwDA&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=genoppes&f=false . The last one lists some irrefutable methods to gain speed (by changing the center of gravity and the waterlines):

• throw the anchors
• empty or fulfill the water tanks
• put all the crew somewhere
• remove the stanchions to lower the center of gravity
• move the ballast (cargo)

And some refutable methods:

• hang weigh on the stays
• unjam the masts
• ease off the laniards and hook out their temporary rackings
• saw some beams or some plankings to give them a better shape

[Tavison]

I just discovered you are creating very close to the game I've wanted to make my entire career, but could never convince anyone to fund it. I hope it is very successful so I can go back and say "Told you so."

 

A little about myself to put my thoughts in perspective. I've grown up all my life sailing traditional sailboats. My first was a Beetle Cat and I've been hooked ever since. I currently own a schooner which I will be converting to either a topsail schooner with a square sail up top, or some form of hybrid or maybe a brig. I've sailed many miles offshore and plan to soon be blue water cruising the rest of my life. I've had a long career in games and am ready to hang it up.

 

Regarding reefing, storms, scudding, etc. It would be wonderful if this were a part of the game. A few thoughts on what's been said, sorry I didn't paste in the quotes, I thought I would just give my thoughts and experiences. Sails don't really blow out. Even in the days of canvas, sails would blow out only if they were old and ready to go anyway. Naval ships would be better maintained by the larger crew, and merchants would have longer lived sails with less maintenance. If they scoop water, they will rip, but you tend to have bigger problems as the boat lurches around. This is why storm sails are high footed with a high clew. 

 

Reefing is for balance and control, not for preventing the boat from rolling over. The harder the wind blows, the more the ship heels reducing the strain on the sail. The amount of force on the sail is regulated by the counter force of the keel, Downwind, it's not a matter of heeling or blowing out sails, it's about not broaching, or worse pitch poling. You want to balance enough force to keep the boat heeled and not acting like a pendulum. What causes a boat to roll is not the wind, but the waves. I can't find the formula right now, but it's something like any boat can roll if the seas are higher than 1/2 the length of the water line. 

 

When things get really bad, there are a number of options. These are the same today as they were 200 years ago. Worst is lying a hull. This is basically giving up and when you give up you die. The boat lies beam to the wind and seas and is VERY uncomfortable and dangerous. Unfortunately too many people have only this in their bag of tricks. Next is running. Running can be fine but usually is a slow motion form of lying a hull. Think about it. You are going with the storm! Usually at about the same speed. You will eventually find the rocky bits that surround most oceans. Once you're running you are trapped. The only way to get out of it is to round up and expose your self beam on. This is how the America's cup boat crashed and killed the strategist. You can drag warps off your stern, or bow and let them act as a a sea anchor. Off your bow and you risk damaging your rudder, and off your stern you expose your weakest face to the storm. Finally you can heave to which square riggers do beautifully. The effect is pure magic. The motion is damped, the seas go calm, the sound drops and you wonder what all the fuss was. It really is amazing. 

 

Those videos are wonderful, but to be clear, that is in no way a storm. That's perfect blue water sailing.

 

Nice to see this project, I can't wait to play it!!!!!

[Ryan21]

I have not been on the forum in awhile so I am not really aware if anything has been put on the table officially regarding proper sail set for worsening weather conditions.  I think this could be a relatively simple but integral part of the game that will exponentially increase game depth and dispel the possible misconception for those who have not sailed on square riggers that you can have full sail set in 40 knots of wind, etc...

 

I would like to draw on the support of people like me on this forum who care about the reality of sailing being embedded as best as it possibly can into this game. 

 

That being said, I read on the forum that the devs are testing a few different weather scenarios to decide on a few that work well for the game, with all things taken into account.

 

With that being taken into account I think it is extremely important once these weather situations are decided upon that the devs set up realistic sail combinations that will work with each scenario, and if the player elects to set more sail, there should be possibility of damage and the recourse will be having to repair masts or spars, just as if they were shot away in battle.  I think there should be a simple strain indicator in the HUD.

 

Also I think that we should push for 1 or two more animations that bring the topsail yard lower to "reef" for the very heavy weather scenarios, I think that it would be well worth the effort.  It does not need to be 100 percent accurate as long as it gets the point accross that you need to balance your sail plan depending on the weather scenario, also coming back to something Maturin said, I think in the release of the game you should be able to have more independant sail control, not required, but as an option for those of us who are really into sailing and understand the ship dynamics. 

 

So in short

 

1. Once a few weather scenarios are decided upon, there should be a "safe sail set" for that condition, and if you set more, you should be able to push it a bit but ultimately the consequence is damaging your vessel.

 

2.  Reefing topsails animation

.

3. Smaller vessels have lower margins of error, eg your cutter will have to reef or take in sail before a frigate will.

 

4. More independant sail control

 

5.  Speeds in heavy weather with a big sea running should be reduced or handicapped when close hauled, and you shouldnt be able to set as much sail close hauled in heavy weather, so more "strain" in general close hauled.  When off the wind in heavy weather the strain should be less and a speed bonus added, sometimes even exceeding a ships rated hull speed, because in real life you can effectively surf down large waves when running in heavy wind, which allows you to exceed your displacement hull speed by effectively "planing"

[maturin]

I agree of course, but it's worth going over the main obstacles.

Before you can even think of adding reefing (which I remember admin expressing resistance to), you have to retrofit every ship so that the yards actually hoist up and down. That also requires redoing the topping lifts as dynamic objects, not just 3D polys.

Changes like this are probably far in the future, and simultaneously very difficult to roll out when the game is already released. So I scarcely dare to hope.

However, once the devs makes 25% sail set topsails only (this had been promised), we push for a compromise. No reefing for now, but negative consequences for carrying too much sail in storms, occasional squalls, etc. Carrying three full topsails in a storm will look odd, but it's better than nothing.