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"Naval Arms Race" mod overhaul. BETA v9.2 "Silent Hunter" update - for UAD v1.5.0.9


o Barão

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  • o Barão changed the title to "Naval Arms Race" mod overhaul. BETA v2.0.3 - for UAD v1.4.0.6 Opt
  • o Barão changed the title to "Naval Arms Race" mod overhaul. BETA v2.0.4 - for UAD v1.4.0.6 Optx2
  • o Barão changed the title to "Naval Arms Race" mod overhaul. BETA v2.0.5 - for UAD v1.4.0.6 Optx2

@o Barão I finally got around to working on those propellants and explosives.  Shell types and weights next, but first let me know what you think of these.  Completely untested, so don't blame me if your PC spontaneously explodes, but the CSV plugin for Notepad++ didn't throw any errors or inconsistencies at me.

https://mega.nz/file/ockmDBJL#EpD719pB_nataSdkOQ8mgb2WpqHtBnHhlqL_jqQQssA

For a basic overview of the changes:
No changes to ammo weight, velocity, or range, since those are all inherent to the gun/shell combination.  Penetration is affected solely by the lyddite fillers.  More powerful propellants need smaller magazines for reduced hull weight, but the tradeoff also more barrel wear and reduced accuracy until the late game, but less powder to move to the guns also means a faster reload rate.

Fillers were based on the NavWeps data, TNT being used as the absolute baseline as it was for the time period, all damages based around it.  No artificial boosts to HE damage over AP, and fire chances were increased for both AP and HE equally. 

 

Its a basic first draft I whipped up in an hour or two or cross-referencing a few things so don't expect a whole lot of balance.  I did try to make sure they were reasonably close to IRL values, especially the fillers.  I also added what I changed each of them to at the end of each line.image.png.538192c974e962bc382a8ca9e8a0e0fa.png

Edited by SpardaSon21
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2 hours ago, SpardaSon21 said:

@o Barão I finally got around to working on those propellants and explosives.  Shell types and weights next, but first let me know what you think of these.  Completely untested, so don't blame me if your PC spontaneously explodes, but the CSV plugin for Notepad++ didn't throw any errors or inconsistencies at me.

https://mega.nz/file/ockmDBJL#EpD719pB_nataSdkOQ8mgb2WpqHtBnHhlqL_jqQQssA

For a basic overview of the changes:
No changes to ammo weight, velocity, or range, since those are all inherent to the gun/shell combination.  Penetration is affected solely by the lyddite fillers.  More powerful propellants need smaller magazines for reduced hull weight, but the tradeoff also more barrel wear and reduced accuracy until the late game, but less powder to move to the guns also means a faster reload rate.

Fillers were based on the NavWeps data, TNT being used as the absolute baseline as it was for the time period, all damages based around it.  No artificial boosts to HE damage over AP, and fire chances were increased for both AP and HE equally. 

 

Its a basic first draft I whipped up in an hour or two or cross-referencing a few things so don't expect a whole lot of balance.  I did try to make sure they were reasonably close to IRL values, especially the fillers.  I also added what I changed each of them to at the end of each line.image.png.538192c974e962bc382a8ca9e8a0e0fa.png

Ok, I took a look at the file. 

The components descriptions need more detailed information.

"No changes to ammo weight, velocity, or range, since those are all inherent to the gun/shell combination. "

This is interesting, but I am not sure if I agree about the velocity and range.

Share the navweaps link you are using for me to take a look.

 

It is late here, and I need time to look this more careful and read more about, but what you did is very interesting, but at first glance I see the values you are using needs to be balanced.

Edited by o Barão
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I know you just mentioned that you are done working on guns but is there any way to increase the limit on how much you can increase gun size? For instance, since we are unable to recreate some historical guns like the French 100mm or the German 150mm, we should be able to increase the gun size of the size down up until the next. So, to get the German 5.9" (150mm) we would be able to max out the 5-inch (127mm) guns up to 150mm.

There are other guns like the German 14.9" (380mm) that I would love to have. I know that, back in the day, the Mega Mod was able to find a way to allow you to scale up the guns past their current limit. Not that I'm trying to recreate the 22.7" Yamato. I tried looking into the files but I just don't have a clue on what and if this modification is still possible.

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  • o Barão changed the title to "Naval Arms Race" mod overhaul. BETA v2.0.6 - for UAD v1.4.0.7

@SpardaSon21 from chatgdp

 

"Yes, the type of gun propellant used can indeed affect both the range and shell velocity of a projectile fired from a gun. Gun propellants are the substances that generate the gas pressure needed to propel a projectile out of a firearm.

The choice of propellant can influence the ballistic performance of a firearm in terms of range and velocity. Factors that can be affected include:

  • Muzzle Velocity: The speed at which the projectile leaves the barrel is influenced by the type and amount of propellant used. Smokeless powder, being more energetic, generally provides higher muzzle velocities compared to black powder.

  • Internal Ballistics: This refers to the behavior of the projectile and propellant inside the gun barrel. The burn rate and energy release of the propellant can impact factors like pressure and barrel harmonics, which in turn affect the projectile's performance.

  • Range: The combination of muzzle velocity and other factors like projectile weight and aerodynamics determines the effective range of a firearm.

It's important to note that various other factors, such as barrel length, rifling, and projectile design, also play roles in determining the overall performance of a firearm. Additionally, the specific characteristics of the propellant itself, such as its burn rate, can be tailored for different types of ammunition and firearms to optimize performance."

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Mk1 6 inch are still turreted for US and UK, which makes for awkward designs at best, especially with the ridiculously huge US turrets.

Also could you perhaps change the Mk3 japanese Guns to the Yamato design used for some Mk2? That one has practically bugged me since release, even though it is only a minor difference.

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17 minutes ago, Finwenolofinwe said:

Mk1 6 inch are still turreted for US and UK, which makes for awkward designs at best, especially with the ridiculously huge US turrets.

The only American 6" guns I found from navweaps from that time period, are open mounts. So is a reasonable request, consider it done.

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_6-50_mk5.php

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_6-30_mk1.php

20 minutes ago, Finwenolofinwe said:

Also could you perhaps change the Mk3 japanese Guns to the Yamato design used for some Mk2? That one has practically bugged me since release, even though it is only a minor difference.

Without telling me what is the gun caliber, it is impossible for me to know where is the issue.

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  • o Barão changed the title to "Naval Arms Race" mod overhaul. BETA v2.0.7 - for UAD v1.4.0.7
15 hours ago, slayerslaine said:

So, to get the German 5.9" (150mm) we would be able to max out the 5-inch (127mm) guns up to 150mm.

And you can't?

15 hours ago, slayerslaine said:

I tried looking into the files but I just don't have a clue on what and if this modification is still possible.

In the file "partsModel" the "max_scale_1" modifier is what will determine how much the gun will increase in size (3D model) going from X.0 - X.9

If you want the guns to be able to increase more in caliber diameter, go to the "params" file and search for this: max_gun_caliber_mod,0.9,,,,,,,,

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10 hours ago, o Barão said:

@SpardaSon21 from chatgdp

 

"Yes, the type of gun propellant used can indeed affect both the range and shell velocity of a projectile fired from a gun. Gun propellants are the substances that generate the gas pressure needed to propel a projectile out of a firearm.

The choice of propellant can influence the ballistic performance of a firearm in terms of range and velocity. Factors that can be affected include:

  • Muzzle Velocity: The speed at which the projectile leaves the barrel is influenced by the type and amount of propellant used. Smokeless powder, being more energetic, generally provides higher muzzle velocities compared to black powder.

  • Internal Ballistics: This refers to the behavior of the projectile and propellant inside the gun barrel. The burn rate and energy release of the propellant can impact factors like pressure and barrel harmonics, which in turn affect the projectile's performance.

  • Range: The combination of muzzle velocity and other factors like projectile weight and aerodynamics determines the effective range of a firearm.

It's important to note that various other factors, such as barrel length, rifling, and projectile design, also play roles in determining the overall performance of a firearm. Additionally, the specific characteristics of the propellant itself, such as its burn rate, can be tailored for different types of ammunition and firearms to optimize performance."

Regarding the ammo weight, the overall idea would be to have ammo weight become simply shell weight to allow for more realistic weights and possibly velocities and firing angles.  The current setup in the game has propellant and shell both being chucked out the barrel, which makes for very awkward firing setups.

As to the range and velocity, yes, that is true.  But this isn't my first time working on a mod for a historical game, and unfortunately certain decisions must be made due to how the game itself handles matters.  Chief among those with UAD is the fact boosting range automatically boosts accuracy due to how the tables are computed, and to a far larger degree than boosting the accuracy stat itself does.  As a result of that mechanic being so lopsided, I'm hesitant to have propellant boost it without there being significant downsides.  I am very aware the actual figures are rough and there's a great deal of room for changes, but this was more of a basic concept pitch than anything else.  If you think the idea works, I'll be happy to go back and smooth things out.  If you have any more questions on why I chose things on either a gameplay or historical basis, let me know.

Additionally, when swapping out brown powder for smokeless charges, the British used a powder charge that was a mere fraction of what had been used prior precisely to avoid the guns blowing up from overpressure.  And the USA did in fact have several guns explode from overpressure as a result of using smokeless powder.

Regarding my primary sources: here and here.

And I'd like to request an open single mount 8" gun for the USA.

Edited by SpardaSon21
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4 minutes ago, o Barão said:

That is a turret gun 😁

But no, no, not going to happen. 6" is the limit for the Americans.

I am going to read careful what you wrote. I am not seeing the table you posted in those links. Maybe I missed.

Whoops, I was juggling a few different tabs at the time.  This is the actual one.  The single open mount was used on USS New York's side guns, as well as our weird early protected cruisers that had a mixture of 8" and 6" guns.

1920px-USS_New_York_(ACR-2).JPG

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16 minutes ago, SpardaSon21 said:

...UAD is the fact boosting range automatically boosts accuracy due to how the tables are computed, and to a far larger degree than boosting the accuracy stat itself does.  As a result of that mechanic being so lopsided, I'm hesitant to have propellant boost it without there being significant downsides.

Higher muzzle velocity, more range and more speed. More speed, less time in the air, easier to hit moving targets. Simple analogy. The thing is if the propellants in vanilla game that are increasing the range are also increasing the muzzle velocity. Something that I need to check. But if it is realistic, I have no issues.

 

22 minutes ago, SpardaSon21 said:

I am very aware the actual figures are rough and there's a great deal of room for changes, but this was more of a basic concept pitch than anything else.  If you think the idea works, I'll be happy to go back and smooth things out.  If you have any more questions on why I chose things on either a gameplay or historical basis, let me know.

Oh, I like a lot. I think it is possible to do something very interesting. There are some issues with the values that you used, as an example black powder guns having a minus -70 shell damage I guess, or Composition A having 170 shell damage. I don't remember the values atm, but was something like. Looking at those values at the table make sense, but I need to find a way how to implement in game without breaking the game balance.

Give me a few days, I will need to research more before I do anything.

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, SpardaSon21 said:

Whoops, I was juggling a few different tabs at the time.  This is the actual one.  The single open mount was used on USS New York's side guns, as well as our weird early protected cruisers that had a mixture of 8" and 6" guns.

1920px-USS_New_York_(ACR-2).JPG

That is the issue. I can't make single mount open without removing the turret version from the game. It is not possible to have the two versions. So I always choose what was the most common from the era. And that you must agree it is a rare example for the time period.

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1 hour ago, o Barão said:

That is the issue. I can't make single mount open without removing the turret version from the game. It is not possible to have the two versions. So I always choose what was the most common from the era. And that you must agree it is a rare example for the time period.

Okay, its annoying to read a double post, so I'll condense everything into one.  First, the USA never had a dedicated turret for single 8" guns.  When used in a single mount it was always open.  Our only turreted mountings for the 8" gun were twins or larger.  For the USA, having a turreted single 8" or 7" gun in the early game is just not historical.

1 hour ago, o Barão said:

Oh, I like a lot. I think it is possible to do something very interesting. There are some issues with the values that you used, as an example black powder guns having a minus -70 shell damage I guess, or Composition A having 170 shell damage. I don't remember the values atm, but was something like. Looking at those values at the table make sense, but I need to find a way how to implement in game without breaking the game balance.

Give me a few days, I will need to research more before I do anything.

 

Yeah, I am aware that's going to be a major concern.  One thing to note is that by 1890 brown powder was already obsolete.  Cordite Mark I began manufacture in 1889 with full adoption a few years after that, while the French had already been using Poudre B since 1886.  The rest of the nations didn't adopt smokeless powders until a few years after, but even if they aren't start techs you can still change the year on them so they research very quickly.  Regarding damage, that was me copying over values from NavWeps on explosive equivalencies.  While it definitely will break balance, well, maybe in the earliest years.  But the USA adopted Dunnite in 1900 at the latest, TNT was 1903 with Germany, and various forms of Lyddite in the 1890's.  If you go with historical years for the vast majority of the game everyone will be using roughly equivalent explosives, with Composition A only being introduced in 1945 and incredibly expensive since it is almost pure RDX, and historically only used in AA guns for use with VT fuses where you absolutely need as much explosive power as you can get.

 

As for the range part, the issue isn't with the range increase in general but the way the game calculates overall accuracy as a fraction of the maximum range.  If we went by the game's logic the interwar refits dreadnoughts got to increase their maximum gun elevation would magically make them more accurate at their older maximum range.  As a result using anything that increases base accuracy but decreases maximum range will give you a net loss on accuracy, countering the entire point of doing so.

 

And no, the base game is not consistent on this.  Cordite II and Cordite III both increase range but decrease velocity.  A lot of it is still a holdover from when propellants and explosives were just the one component.

Edited by SpardaSon21
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11 hours ago, SpardaSon21 said:

Okay, its annoying to read a double post, so I'll condense everything into one.  First, the USA never had a dedicated turret for single 8" guns.  When used in a single mount it was always open.  Our only turreted mountings for the 8" gun were twins or larger.  For the USA, having a turreted single 8" or 7" gun in the early game is just not historical.

If I did that, I also need to do the same thing for the 7" and for other nations. I am not saying that you are incorrect, I am just saying at the moment I don't have the patience for that. I already lost so many hours editing guns in game that I am with PTSD already. :D

Maybe later, for now destroyers 1-4, propellant and the explosives rework are the top priority.

11 hours ago, SpardaSon21 said:

And no, the base game is not consistent on this.  Cordite II and Cordite III both increase range but decrease velocity.  A lot of it is still a holdover from when propellants and explosives were just the one component.

I think this is possible to fix.

11 hours ago, SpardaSon21 said:

...with Composition A only being introduced in 1945 and incredibly expensive since it is almost pure RDX, and historically only used in AA guns for use with VT fuses where you absolutely need as much explosive power as you can get.

Great, no need for that in game, then. That solves the issue with the balancing.

 

Well in summary:

  • I need 10 historical propellants and 10 historical explosives
  • The years that are unlocked needs to be more or less historical accurate.
  • If the propellant increase the range, also needs to increase the muzzle velocity
  • I need the component description for all of them. This is the easy part.
  • And most IMPORTANT, the stats need to reflect the component's realistic properties.
  • Thanks 2
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