Suggestion - Change Torpedo Boat Destroyers and Large Torpedo Boats

[midge]

It's been bothering me, that the Torpedo Boat Destroyer is still classified as a TB ingame but the "Large Torpedo Boat" variations are classed as DD's. Unless i'm missing something, it would seem more intuitive to swap these Hulls around as TBD's are typically conisidered some of the first destroyers. The easiest way to do this would probably be to just swap around the names.

On a related note, is there any particular reason for the hard 600t tonnage and 1908 year cutoff for TB's? The tonnage limit essentially renders 199t of the Torpedo Boat Destroyers 600 to 800 tonne displacement range inacessible. It seems to me like it wouldn't be too difficult to make some of the techs, which increase DD displacement, also further increase TB displacement.

As for the Year cutoff, again unless im misunderstanding something, im fairly sure many nations continued to make torpedo boats right through world war I and into world war II, although by that time they were beginning to rival some older DD's in displacement. Why not give nations, that kept the Torpedo boat Classification, some TB Hulls that allow the recreation of some of the later classes of Ships that are too small to easily be made with existing DD Hulls?

Edited December 4, 2021 by midge

[DougToss]

Might be worth looking into Torpedo Gunboats for 1890-1900 as well.

[T_the_ferret]

Heck just rename it to "Auxiliaries" and add gunboats, god knows we need more small scale battles

[midge]

9 hours ago, DougToss said:

Might be worth looking into Torpedo Gunboats for 1890-1900 as well.

I considered mentioning Torpedo Gunboats, but i thought it would be best to limit the posts scope to some easy fixes, which wouldn't require too much effort on the part of the devs. With the exception of new mid- to late-game Torpedo Boat Hulls, (Which for now could probably just be added as scaled down destroyer Hulls) these changes should be little more than some Name and/or Class Changes and adding some extra effects to some techs.

Although Torpedo gunboats could probably also be relatively easily represented as very scaled down light cruiser Hulls I feel like their relative lack of success and relegation to the first few years of the campaign makes them slightly less of a priority.

[TBRSIM]

"Large Torpedo Boat" (Hochseetorpedoboot) is essentially what the Kaiserliche Marine called its early destroyers, so classifying them ingame under "DD" is correct. The first Hochseetorpedoboot Class was a reaction to and contemporary to the first British and French torpedoboat destroyers, in fact same size as the British (with the choice of one more TT for one less gun, reflecting KM doctrinal focus on torpedo armament, this is also the reason for the late adoption of the "Zerstörer" name) and significantly superior to the French. However, the "torpedo boat destroyer" should likely also be classed DD.

[midge]

3 hours ago, TBRSIM said:

"Large Torpedo Boat" (Hochseetorpedoboot) is essentially what the Kaiserliche Marine called its early destroyers...

Yeah, I was aware of the German Large Torpedo Boats (Großen Torpedoboote) but i wasn't sure if the ingame Large TB's were specifically referencing these. I'd still argue, that these Boats should be classed as Torpedoboats rather than destroyers, due to their different doctrinal use.

As you've already stated, they were a reaction to British and French Torpedoboat Destroyers, however the Large Torpedo Boats were designed be used almost identically to previous torpedo boats, with their larger size intended to allow them to undertake offensive operations in spite of TBD presence, thus the focus on more Torpedo Tubes and weaker gun armament.

Ultimately i think the cutoff between what is a TB and what is a DD is somewhat fuzzy and imo you can make arguments for any constellation of classifications except the one currently ingame. (if the Large TB's are DD's then so is the TBD and if the TBD is a TB the so are the Large TB's)

 

[SpardaSon21]

I wouldn't mind seeing gunboats happen, especially for the USA.  The torpedo was never a preferred weapon of ours, after all.  Why should it be, really, when we were building 1,500 ton torpedo boat destroyers like USS Wilmington in the mid 1890's, or the 1900 ton Yorktowns even earlier?

Edited December 5, 2021 by SpardaSon21

[TBRSIM]

2 hours ago, SpardaSon21 said:

I wouldn't mind seeing gunboats happen, especially for the USA.  The torpedo was never a preferred weapon of ours, after all.  Why should it be, really, when we were building 1,500 ton torpedo boat destroyers like USS Wilmington in the mid 1890's, or the 1900 ton Yorktowns even earlier?

Those were station cruisers (avisos, Kanonenboote, colonial cruisers, Stationsschiffe...) not built for war, i.e. to challenge or maintain sea control, but to exercise sea control and project power in those far off areas where the sun shines more strongly than at home and where "peace" just meant white people (mostly) did not shoot at each other but everyone else was more or less fair game. They also served, more peacefully, as afloat "embassies" in some places.

Granted, the golden age of gunboats was more moral when they were the mainstay of the Royal Navy's effort to end the slave trade. The "steam gunboat" saw first combat in the 1840s with the West Africa Squadron. But it became central to the fight against ocean-borne slavery after the Atlanic slave trade was effectively ended in the never fully accomplished effort to end slaving in the Indian Ocean and Red Seafrom with peak effort in the 1860s to 1890s.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunboat#Steam_era

[T_the_ferret]

Gunboats would help a lot with the lack of focus the early ages and small scale battle suffer from

[SpardaSon21]

On 12/5/2021 at 3:05 PM, TBRSIM said:

Those were station cruisers (avisos, Kanonenboote, colonial cruisers, Stationsschiffe...) not built for war, i.e. to challenge or maintain sea control, but to exercise sea control and project power in those far off areas where the sun shines more strongly than at home and where "peace" just meant white people (mostly) did not shoot at each other but everyone else was more or less fair game. They also served, more peacefully, as afloat "embassies" in some places.

Granted, the golden age of gunboats was more moral when they were the mainstay of the Royal Navy's effort to end the slave trade. The "steam gunboat" saw first combat in the 1840s with the West Africa Squadron. But it became central to the fight against ocean-borne slavery after the Atlanic slave trade was effectively ended in the never fully accomplished effort to end slaving in the Indian Ocean and Red Seafrom with peak effort in the 1860s to 1890s.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunboat#Steam_era

Okay, and?  They seem to be exactly what @midgewas asking for as small ship auxiliaries.

Or would you prefer something like the British Sharpshooter torpedo gunboats, contemporaries of the Yorktowns, 3 knots faster and 1,000 tons lighter?  I would hardly consider Yorktowns not built for war given their armored turtleback deck and substantial armament.  Indeed, USS Concord  fought in the Battle of Manila Bay, and was heavier and faster than some of the Spanish cruisers despite her classification, and was actually protected unlike them.  I would also not consider the Sharpshooters to be particularly small vessels for the time at 735 tons... several times what a TBD design such as the Darings massed.  But there's always USS Petrel for a more proper gunboat, at 867 tons and with 4 6"/30 cannons... I suppose she too was not suited for war, despite her participation at Manila Bay?  Of course, she's not particularly speedy at a mere 11.4 knots.  Then again, neither was Sharpshooter's 19 knots... the same speed as some protected cruisers at the time.

Edited December 7, 2021 by SpardaSon21