B vs BB

[NuclearNadal]

Basing this off RTW as I have no idea what historically was used to classify Pre-Dreadnoughts after HMS Dreadnought but is a Pre-Dreadnought classified as a B or BB?

RTW classes it as a B rather than BB. I personally like this as it makes it easier for quick glancing identification. Seeing BB at least to me makes me instantly go "Dreadnought" even though it could be a Pre-Dreadnought.

Thoughts?

 

Edit: Spelling

Edited October 12, 2019 by NuclearNadal

[Zak MacKay]

To my understanding they where all BB. B was just the old term before the change it to 2 letters. Dreadnoughts and pre dreadnoughts where both battleships. Dreadnought was revolutionary but just another step forward in battleship design. Especially if you look at it in game as you can make dreadnought like ships before dreadnought was launches.

Quote

, USS Minnesota (BB-22) would have been called "USS Minnesota, Battleship number 22" orally and "USS Minnesota, B-22" in writing. After 1920, the ship's name would have been both written and pronounced "USS Minnesota (BB-22)"

 

[NuclearNadal]

1 hour ago, Zak MacKay said:

To my understanding they where all BB. B was just the old term before the change it to 2 letters. Dreadnoughts and pre dreadnoughts where both battleships. Dreadnought was revolutionary but just another step forward in battleship design. Especially if you look at it in game as you can make dreadnought like ships before dreadnought was launches.

 

Indeed. I guess the question of whether to leave it as BB for pre-dreadnoughts is up to the devs/player base. 

[Skoggatt]

I think the it should be the same for both. Historically "dreadnoughts" were just an evolutionary step in the design of battleships, not a different class. RTW only distinguishes them so that the more powerful dreadnoughts can be worth more strategic points than older battleships. 

[Niomedes]

1 hour ago, Skoggatt said:

I think the it should be the same for both. Historically "dreadnoughts" were just an evolutionary step in the design of battleships, not a different class. RTW only distinguishes them so that the more powerful dreadnoughts can be worth more strategic points than older battleships. 

Making all battleships prior to them obsolete is a development which warrants destinction.

[Nick Thomadis]

We need to define the difference of B and BB in UI, especially when we start offering the campaign.

[Pedroig]

B is old style, mixed gun (12’s, 8’s, 6’s, 5’s, 3’s) with practically vertical sides, limited bulkheads, rudimentary torpedo protection.  Primaries would be 12’s/8’s secondaries in casements.  Generally coal fired, with local fire control.  Typical speed maxing out under 20 knots. 
 

BB is single caliber gun, with 3+ turrets, usually twin or triple barrel. Secondaries were usually 6” or smaller, angled hull, with torpedo protection.  Generally oil/diesel fired with central fire control. Typical speeds starting at 20 knots. 
 

The true defining feature is the all-big-gun as most of the rest was simply technological advances which benefited all ships, and not just capital ships.

[Skoggatt]

On 10/12/2019 at 11:51 PM, Niomedes said:

Making all battleships prior to them obsolete is a development which warrants destinction.

Would it make sense to distinguish fast battleships from dreadnoughts in that case? Since Fast BBs combine the speed of BCs with the protection of BBs it could be an important distinction. Iowa was faster than any battlecruiser, much better protected, and much better armed. Such ships obsoleted not only dreadnoughts, but also super dreadnoughts and battlecruisers.

[Niomedes]

5 hours ago, Skoggatt said:

Would it make sense to distinguish fast battleships from dreadnoughts in that case? Since Fast BBs combine the speed of BCs with the protection of BBs it could be an important distinction. Iowa was faster than any battlecruiser, much better protected, and much better armed. Such ships obsoleted not only dreadnoughts, but also super dreadnoughts and battlecruisers.

No, and that's because they didn't actually make them obsolete. Older battleships were at a disadvantage, but could still technically fight fast battleships and expect to be a threat for them. A predreadnought however could never expect to even survive an encounter, since the low range of their guns prevented them from even successfully engaging the enemy. 

[Skoggatt]

12 hours ago, Niomedes said:

No, and that's because they didn't actually make them obsolete. Older battleships were at a disadvantage, but could still technically fight fast battleships and expect to be a threat for them. A predreadnought however could never expect to even survive an encounter, since the low range of their guns prevented them from even successfully engaging the enemy. 

Perhaps they did not make the battleships obsolete, but they did make battlecruisers obsolete. An Invincible, Tiger, or Renown would have no hope against Iowa, Bismark, or KGV. Fast BBs were faster, better armored, and better armed. Hood would be a better match for the 30s/40s battleships, although still inferior as shown by history. And Hood is arguably more of a fast battleship than a battlecruiser anyways with her 12" belt.

[NuclearNadal]

15 hours ago, Niomedes said:

No, and that's because they didn't actually make them obsolete. Older battleships were at a disadvantage, but could still technically fight fast battleships and expect to be a threat for them. A predreadnought however could never expect to even survive an encounter, since the low range of their guns prevented them from even successfully engaging the enemy. 

A Pre-Dreadnought wouldn’t survive a 1v1. 

 

That being said when the Lord Nelson class were completed (in fact I’m pretty sure one of the academy missions uses Lord Nelson as a hull), a British report found that two of them could hold their own against some of the newer, actual, dreadnoughts of the time. 

Unless it’s a very specific situation, yes the B is unlikely to win. 

[Niomedes]

8 hours ago, NuclearNadal said:

A Pre-Dreadnought wouldn’t survive a 1v1. 

 

That being said when the Lord Nelson class were completed (in fact I’m pretty sure one of the academy missions uses Lord Nelson as a hull), a British report found that two of them could hold their own against some of the newer, actual, dreadnoughts of the time. 

Unless it’s a very specific situation, yes the B is unlikely to win. 

Lord Nelson is in the peculiar position of being the direct predecessor for dreadnought, and thusly already sharing a fair share of Dreadnought's characteristics, apapart from the uniform battery of course.

[Kommandant Flauschige]

Speaking of pre-dreadnoughts, can anybody give me some tips for the Pre-Dreadnoughts v.s. Dreadnoughts Academy mission?

I've tried to go with my usual equation of As Many of the Biggest Guns Possible + High TNT + Super-Heavy Shells + Auto-Reloading + Electrical Turret Rotation = Victory (most of the time),

BUT

As that is essentially trying to modernize pre-dreadnoughts into BB's, it doesn't seem to have worked very well (also probably because you can fit max 2x main battery turrets on those hulls and max 11-12in guns).

[Tycondero]

On 4/18/2020 at 8:46 PM, Kommandant Flauschige said:

Speaking of pre-dreadnoughts, can anybody give me some tips for the Pre-Dreadnoughts v.s. Dreadnoughts Academy mission?

I've tried to go with my usual equation of As Many of the Biggest Guns Possible + High TNT + Super-Heavy Shells + Auto-Reloading + Electrical Turret Rotation = Victory (most of the time),

BUT

As that is essentially trying to modernize pre-dreadnoughts into BB's, it doesn't seem to have worked very well (also probably because you can fit max 2x main battery turrets on those hulls and max 11-12in guns).

If I recall correctly (It has been a while), pump out more ships if possible within the given budget and try to mount some powerful side main guns as well.