Why does the enhanced/automatic gun reload reduce accuracy and range?

[Christian]

6 hours ago, admin said:

Its just not a proper description. It was written some time ago and need update. 

In reality here is what happens. 
Early Heavier machinery reduces elevation = reduces distance
Faster reload because of heavier machinery = reduces ability to adjust aim so accuracy is lower

But the description is all over the place. and need to be replaced.  New upgrades will be introduced (especially in the campaign) that will later cancel out elevation and accuracy penalties.

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Early Heavier machinery reduces elevation = reduces distance

this would only increase the time it takes to elevate the guns not the maximum elevation

the maximum elevation is determined by the amount of free space below the guns and how restricted the gunhouse is

this does not get in the way of the gun any more than normal elevation would as there is no reason for the hoist to swing below the breech 

the only instance of fast reloading major naval guns having limited elevation and fast reload is the german 15 inch gun which could cycle at 2.6 rounds per minute

but the hoists would suffer very frequent breakdowns and was thus limited to only be able to supply 2 projectiles and the accompanying full charges per minute 

 

a general trend was for nations with acces to the pacific having high elevation capability (40+)

while european/atlantic nations usually had a limited elevation capability of 35 degrees 

the only nations to have 45 degree elevation on almost all their new ww2 battleships were the japanese and americans

the british germans italians french and british all had 30-35 degree elevation limits though the british 14 inch gun for KGV and the nelson 16 inch both have 40 degree elevation

 

as can be seen the holes for the guns is generally what limits how high the guns can elevate

the internal space is also a great limiting factor

for the german 305mm gun (as pictured) the elevation is limited to 16 degrees due to the turret floor which made the guns hit the floor when recoiling when elevated to more than 16 degrees thus damaging the projectile hoist spaces below (generally not good for the heads of crew and could knock the guns off their mounts or knock them slightly out of place no longer making the gun have its previous proper zero)

the more free space the more elevation the guns have

as can be seen the the gun has significant space for elevation here while in the second picture of the german twin 12 inch gun turret you can see that there is a floor preventing the guns from elevating further than 16 degrees

the german 12 inch gun was limited to 13.5 degrees before a small section above the barrel was cut out which allowed elevation up to 16 degrees (in the area where the gun barrel sticks out the top part of the roof armor as cut out)

(yamato turret)

can also be seen in the technical mission to japans scan of the yamato turret as shown a large open space is given for the breech and recoil of the gun when it fires at high elevation

(if you look behind the breech theres also an outline of the breechs position at maximum recoil lenght) 

 

according to these gun diagrams (pre ww2 and are the only ones release to my knowledge)

in none of these EXCEPT ONE does the hoist seem to be in the way of the elevation of the gun

said one turret is this one (right blow this text)

as can be seen its elevation is bad 

and the hoist seems to obstruct it from elevating until the hoist has moved down

 

also while some of these hoists seem to obstruct the elevation of the gun the gun when recoiling moves into the open channel of the hoist 

which can be seen by the 2 last pictures where while it looks like on the first picture the recoil of the gun goes right into the hoist

the hoist space is in fact empty when the hoist cart (carrying the projectile and powder) is not in the up position for reloading (as can be seen in the top down picture)

(this can also be seen in the yamato picture)

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Faster reload because of heavier machinery = reduces ability to adjust aim so accuracy is lower

i cant tell if this is saying

A turret is heavier so gun traverses and elevates slower

B reloads faster so the gunnery control crew has less time to adjust aim

 

if A 

this shouldn't effect accuracy this should effect time per shot aka reload time

the longer it takes to elevate (you train the turret while reloading) the gun the longer the reload time is (elevating and de elevating is considered in reload time) because its automatic reloading its assumed the elevation of the gun is fast thus the turret is likely controlled by hydraulics this means they have a generally good elevation and train rate

 

B this could be a problem

but again this would just increase the reload time and not the accuracy

if it was gonna decrease anything it should decrease AIMING TIME NOT ACCURACY 

aka it would take longer to reach a good firing solution as the fire-control crew has less time to make adjustments

BUT the guns would be equally accurate WHEN they have the firing solution

 

currently automatic loading in game

reduces accuracy

does not increase or change aiming time

when it

should not increase or decrease accuracy

severely increase aiming time

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But the description is all over the place. and need to be replaced.  New upgrades will be introduced (especially in the campaign) that will later cancel out elevation and accuracy penalties.

i can agree somewhat with the elevation penalty on early guns (such as the french single gun diagram which i posted) (although it seems like a post ww1 tech) 

but it still makes no sense that accuracy is impacted yet aiming speed is untouched

aiming speed should be effected NOT accuracy

BUT

there should be a higher chance of turret flash fire upon a penetrating turret hit with automatic loading as due to firing faster there is a higher chance for powder bags to be in the gunhouse when being hit due to faster hoist speed to maintain a faster reload speed 

thus flash fire chance should be higher

 

 

in short keep elevation thing if its wished (although i could only find very few guns where it had an effect)

reduce aiming speed of guns with automatic loading by 30-50%

increase chances of flash fire by 10-15%

 

Edited October 15, 2019 by Christian

[Christian]

7 hours ago, admin said:

 

would be awesome to read sources on this.. will help a lot (any links or screens from books) inlcuding book names.

footage here seems to confirm that such a reload rate was not abnormal and a reload time of 25 seconds is achieved

this is the german 280mm or 305mm gun 

as can be seen there is a midships mounted centerline with an aft superimposed turret over an aft turret this indicates its mostly likely its Moltke or Seydlitz class battlecruiser

or its the konig class dreadnoughts with 305mm guns 

i believe its 280mm guns

this is a 280mm turret

as can be seen the guncovers (the cloth material) does not extend very far out on the barrel (same again as video one)

in addition to this it only has 1 sighting hole in the side of the turret which is placed high up same as the video one

this is the twin 305mm gun

which has 2 sighting holes 

 

reload is timed from 10:30

gun starts elevating at 10:30
the gun reaches 0 degrees elevation at 10:33

brass casing is removed from 10:33 to 10:35

projectile tray is moved in at 10:38

projectile is rammed at 10:39

powder is moved in at 10:44

powder is rammed 10:45

rammer is retracted breech is closed 10:48

gun begins to elevate 10:49

reaches full elevation at 10:54

 

total reload time of 25 seconds at max elevation

total reload time of 20 seconds at 1/3rd elevation

 

Edited October 15, 2019 by Christian

[akd]

That is cut together film.  Can’t draw direct conclusions from it.

[ExGavalonnj1]

13 hours ago, Niomedes said:

The source is the report from the 22nd of August 1911 Gunnery Exercises performed by Radetzky. They're accessible in the Austrian state Archive's Kriegsarchiv section. I don't know if that has been cited in any english language book so far.

It wan't a sustained 3rpm, it was only for the first minute, then down to 1-2rpm. They must of had a ready rack or something. Could also have been "cheating" like at the Kirov weapon trials where they got 5.5rpm vs 2 in service  somehow. 

[Niomedes]

48 minutes ago, ExGavalonnj1 said:

It wan't a sustained 3rpm, it was only for the first minute, then down to 1-2rpm. They must of had a ready rack or something. Could also have been "cheating" like at the Kirov weapon trials where they got 5.5rpm vs 2 in service  somehow. 

That's what it says on Wikipedia. It's however incorrect. The realy rpm was more alog the lines of 2.2-2.5, with 3 during the first minute and under emergency reload. I.e., when the officers basically wipped the crew or something lol.

[Christian]

10 hours ago, akd said:

That is cut together film.  Can’t draw direct conclusions from it.

the reload part is all in one cut the rest is not but the rest does not matter

all that matters here is 10:30 to 10:56

 

also footage being cut or not does not matter as long as it shows whats important in one clip

if i wanted an example of recoil one complete cut of the gun firing would be enough

same goes for reload

 

just saying that is a cut together film SAYS NOTHING about its trustworthyness 

of course its cut together is hello kittying 17 minutes long and back then non clipped together films of that lenght were IMPOSSIBLE

it has 27 seconds of pure reloading footage and NOTHING ELSE with 0 cuts

from 10:30 to 10:56

THERE ARE NO CUTS

and its not post war footage since all of these guns were lost in 1918

there is not a single cut from when the barrel starts to de elevate until it has reached full elevation again

also i was wrong

This is Kaiser

these are 305mm guns but as can be seen only 1 spotting hole is present and it does not have the extended cloth over the barrels

this seems to line up with the secondary placement

this makes it likely the firing footage is from 305mm guns

 

 

there is a possibility they cut from the turret footage to a 280mm gun reloading

but if we assume they cut to the 305mm gun it would make sense (since thats the gun they show firing)

 

the 305mm and 280mm gun both had a rate of fire from 2-3 rounds per minute

 

if the guns fired at 0 degrees elevation the reload time would be 16 seconds thus almost a rate of fire of 4 rounds per minute

what limits the gun is its slow elevation and de elevation rate which is only 4 degrees per second which means it took 3 seconds to elevate the gun to max and the same to de elevate it combined with the fact it takes slightly longer time for the crew to reload it as they need to wait until its at a standstill

 

 

 

 

PS finding interior pictures diagrams and so on of the german 12 inch gun is not easy it seems the gun was kept somewhat secret

this makes it more likely the picture is cut to a 280mm gun

thats supported by this picture of the goebens 28cm breech

this breech and interior layout LOOKS ALMOST IDENTICAL to the footage at 10:30

(keep in mind picture is flipped as the gun in the clip is from the right side of the twin turret while goebens breech picture is from the left gun in the twin turret)

either way the steel bars and the small buttons/electronics look almost identical and so does the breech 

 

 

the only 2 nations to use this sliding breech were austro hungarians and the germans

and the austro hungarian 305mm gun looks vastly diffrent

as can be seen here

 

Edited October 15, 2019 by Christian

[akd]

My point was that we don't know if the reload sequence starts right from the moment the gun last fired. Also, this was likely filmed at 10-18 FPS and is played back at 24 FPS, so you would need to adjust time upward by an unknown amount.

Regardless, a single sequence isn't going to give the best insight into actual practical rates of fire.  I would put more stock in trials, especially where times are averaged between guns / turrets and over time (to account for the ammunition supply problem).

Edited October 15, 2019 by akd

[Christian]

47 minutes ago, akd said:

My point was that we don't know if the reload sequence starts right from the moment the gun last fired. Also, this was likely filmed at 10-18 FPS and is played back at 24 FPS, so you would need to adjust time upward by unknown amount.

Regardless, a single sequence isn't going to give the best insight into actual practical rates of fire.  I would put more stock in trials, especially where times are averaged between guns / turrets and over time (to account for the ammunition supply problem).

but it does back up the sources which state the rate of fire is 2-3 rounds per minute for the 12 and 11 inch gun which perfectly overlays with the footage 

this seems to indicate rate of fire was 2-3 rounds per minute for this gun

every source ive read up on regarding the german 12 and 11 inch guns used at jutland states 2-3 rounds per minute

both guns also have almost the exact same hoist layout although the 305mm has a hydraulically powered ram and the hoists are slightly larger

 

generally speaking yeah you would want the hoists to be working at full capacity to determine rate of fire

 

which is easier with ww2 vessels because they usually did not have ready rack ammuniton in the turret due to the flash fire problems which might be present 

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Also, this was likely filmed at 10-18 FPS and is played back at 24 FPS, so you would need to adjust time upward by unknown amount.

timing the elevation sequence from 0 to 13.5 gives me slightly over 3 seconds

all sources on this gun state 4 degree per second elevation

 

 

from navyweps

 

it is also to be mentioned that during the dogger bank incident she fired off almost all of her AP ammunition (87 rounds per barrel)

it is quite likely as ammo was running low they began to preserve ammo and conducted more aimed salvoes and thus lowered the rate of fire to get higher hitrates

 

Edited October 15, 2019 by Christian

[ExGavalonnj1]

10 hours ago, Niomedes said:

That's what it says on Wikipedia. It's however incorrect. The realy rpm was more alog the lines of 2.2-2.5, with 3 during the first minute and under emergency reload. I.e., when the officers basically wipped the crew or something lol.

Navyweaps says 3 in first min then 1-2rpm. http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNAust_12-45.php

[akd]

Well, I agree that main gun reload rates for mid- and late- era tech could be improved, but there is a much larger problem that needs to be solved first, or we will just see this problem compounded: accuracy is improved when shots are fired, not when their fall is observed (visually or on radar) and then processed through fire control!

Guns are almost reloaded and first two ladder aiming shots (shouldn't an effective ladder require 4 shots?) are still on the way to the target, but target is already "locked" at 1.4% accuracy. 

First salvo is fired and accuracy is improved to 1.7%.  The initial 2 shots have still not arrived down range.

Second salvo is fired and accuracy improves to 3.2%.   First two shots fired are just now arriving down range but still haven't impacted!

Until this is fixed, increasing reload rates will only make this issue much worse.

Edited October 15, 2019 by akd

[Christian]

4 hours ago, akd said:

Well, I agree that main gun reload rates for mid- and late- era tech could be improved, but there is a much larger problem that needs to be solved first, or we will just see this problem compounded: accuracy is improved when shots are fired, not when their fall is observed (visually or on radar) and then processed through fire control!

Guns are almost reloaded and first two ladder aiming shots (shouldn't an effective ladder require 4 shots?) are still on the way to the target, but target is already "locked" at 1.4% accuracy. 

First salvo is fired and accuracy is improved to 1.7%.  The initial 2 shots have still not arrived down range.

Second salvo is fired and accuracy improves to 3.2%.   First two shots fired are just now arriving down range but still haven't impacted!

Until this is fixed, increasing reload rates will only make this issue much worse.

yeah that dosent really make sense

 

its odd only 2 ladder shots are required when you would want 3 or 4 shots (depending on your gun layout) and for some reason the remaining guns are silent until the first one has reloaded (shouldnt they fire in pairs so if you have 6 single guns as pictured here they would fire 2 ranging salvoes in quick succesion of 3 shots each ? one salvo would be purposely aimed under another purposefully over while it would try and split the shots per group to be 3 or 4) 

realistically you cant really get a proper group out of 2 shots 

 

(also shouldnt it take a few salvoes for the firing ship to get a proper and solid lock or is locked in this case determined by the ship properly seeing the target and aiming ?)

 

Edited October 16, 2019 by Christian

[Pedroig]

Well ya can get lucky on an initial shot of 2 guns, but can’t reliably range with 2 splashes.  
 

Typical ladder was either to send 3-4 salvos (read main gun broadside) spaces at 400 yard/meter increments, with the ladder normally starting “long” and hopefully ending “short”. So if the director had an estimated range to target of 15,000 yards, the ladder order would be for salvo fire at 15,600, 15,200, 14,800, and 14,400. The fire team would plot observed splashes for each salvo, and then adjust. Only caveat being a confirmed hit salvo would become range, and then depending on era/technology either a computer of some sort would adjust solutions or “Kentucky Windage” would adjust fire. 
 

Does make one wonder if the hit/miss pen/no pen determination are done at time of firing or upon arrival...