Why does the enhanced/automatic gun reload reduce accuracy and range?

[Jay Gatsby]

Why does the enhanced/automatic gun reload reduce accuracy and range? In real life only the weight and the cost increase with an autoloader, accuracy and range are not reduced, I think that this game should be more realistic rather than arcade, avoiding situations like this.

Edited October 12, 2019 by Jay Gatsby

[halfmanhalfsquidman]

Completely agree. If it is a game balance thing for future multiplayer then okay I guess, but adding more cost without affecting accuracy and range is probably better. Honestly though I feel like the primary audience for this game will overlap more with RTW than World of Warships (which I also play, but just because I love big battle boats and not for historical satisfaction)

[JANXOL]

I mostly agree. There could be a range limitation for automatic loading, as the process requires the barrels to be lowered, especially for large calibers and long shells. And autoloaders only work within limited barrel elevations.

[Christian]

i dont see a reason why the accuracy should be decreased as historically that was not the case

an argument could be made that since its faster reloading its also more modern thus likely has more accuracy due to better quality control methods and increased manufacturing quality

although it giving 0 penalties in terms of accuracy would be the most realistic 

Edited October 12, 2019 by Christian

[Jay Gatsby]

19 minutes ago, halfmanhalfsquidman said:

Completely agree. If it is a game balance thing for future multiplayer then okay I guess, but adding more cost without affecting accuracy and range is probably better. Honestly though I feel like the primary audience for this game will overlap more with RTW than World of Warships (which I also play, but just because I love big battle boats and not for historical satisfaction)

It is not ok even for multiplayer because the reload of the cannons is very slow even with the autoloader, it is not real, not even in WOWS is like that, however the multiplayer is considered but it isn't a confirmed feature

Edited October 12, 2019 by Jay Gatsby

[Jay Gatsby]

31 minutes ago, JANXOL said:

I mostly agree. There could be a range limitation for automatic loading, as the process requires the barrels to be lowered, especially for large calibers and long shells. And autoloaders only work within limited barrel elevations.

Even manual loading requires barrels to be lowered, because the breech must be aligned with the loading mechanism to reload the guns, anyway the maximum range depends by the maximum gun elevation and it is the same for both manual and automatic loading systems in reality, an autoloader is simply better than a manual mechanism, except that it costs more and is heavier than a manual system.

16"/50 caliber Mark 7 gun

Edited October 12, 2019 by Jay Gatsby

[Niomedes]

Yeah, Multiplayer is currently only being considered. But it would be a genuine shame if there was no multiplayer. I honestly wouldn't understand it if they refused to add it.

[Haveatya]

I feel the same way about the accuracy and range nerfs for something that shouldnt cause it to change.

[Haveatya]

19 minutes ago, Haveatya said:

I feel the same way about the accuracy and range nerfs for something that shouldnt cause it to change.

A Des Moines reportedly engaged a towed target at 25,000 yards with six three-gun salvos (using one gun in each turret) in full automatic fire which is almost 20 salvoes a minute. The Royal Navy observers reported 17 hits. That's 17/18 hits from the largest rapid reloading rifle. Right now automatic 8 inchers in the final scenario can maybe land 1/18 at 5000 yards.

[Christian]

its also to be noted the "automatic" loading we have in game is far from a system using true automatic reloading

a true automatic naval gun would be something like the http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_8-55_mk16.php

http:// https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXJIE50jxdw

which fired an 8 inch shell downrange every 6 seconds

 

while its firerate was more than twice as good as the previous 8 inch rifles the americans had (10 rof over the previous 4) the weight was also substantially higher clocking in at 

451 tons (458 mt) compared to the Baltimore class  303 tons (307.7 mt)

or something like the gatling 53mm hotchkiss

 http://www.victorianshipmodels.com/antitorpedoboatguns/Hotchkiss/hotchkiss53mmnav.html

 

though generally larger naval guns with very high firerates were post 1945 designs 

 

 

[Niomedes]

Fire rates in general are very low in this game when compared to reality.

[Christian]

4 minutes ago, Haveatya said:

A Des Moines reportedly engaged a towed target at 25,000 yards with six three-gun salvos (using one gun in each turret) in full automatic fire which is almost 20 salvoes a minute. The Royal Navy observers reported 17 hits. That's 17/18 hits from the largest rapid reloading rifle. Right now automatic 8 inchers in the final scenario can maybe land 1/18 at 5000 yards.

the des moines has a maximum of 10 rof per gun

which means each gun can shoot at max of 10 rounds per minute

which is 30 rounds per minute per turret 

accuracy of fire depends less on the accuracy of the gun and more of the accuracy of the firecontrol

in 1950+ when these ships served they had radar firecontrol and other highly advanced means of firing 

achieving 17/18 hits at 5000 yards in the 1950s was a piece of cake for most ships

[JANXOL]

1 hour ago, Jay Gatsby said:

Even manual loading requires barrels to be lowered, because the breech must be aligned with the loading mechanism to reload the guns, anyway the maximum range depends by the maximum gun elevation and it is the same for both manual and automatic loading systems in reality, an autoloader is simply better than a manual mechanism, except that it costs more and is heavier than a manual system.

16"/50 caliber Mark 7 gun

Agreed, but in that case the fire rate isn't the problem, as lowering the barrel is part of the "manual" reload. In case of autoloader's you'd need to either 1. Reduce elevation 2. Include the time of lowering the gun into firing cycle and lower the maximum autoloader fire rate. I see both options as fine to be hoenst, maybe two separate options? One for maximum fire rate at the cost of elevation, the other for max fire rate without sacrificing the elevation.

[Jay Gatsby]

1 hour ago, JANXOL said:

Agreed, but in that case the fire rate isn't the problem, as lowering the barrel is part of the "manual" reload. In case of autoloader's you'd need to either 1. Reduce elevation 2. Include the time of lowering the gun into firing cycle and lower the maximum autoloader fire rate. I see both options as fine to be hoenst, maybe two separate options? One for maximum fire rate at the cost of elevation, the other for max fire rate without sacrificing the elevation.

I've just discovered that in reality all the autoloaders for warships can reload at any angle, for example the 8"/55 (20.3 cm) RF Mark 16 of the Des Moines class has always a fire rate of 10 rounds per minute (6 seconds) indipendently from the angle

[JANXOL]

4 minutes ago, Jay Gatsby said:

I've just discovered that in reality all the autoloaders for warships can reload at any angle, for example the 8"/55 (20.3 cm) RF Mark 16 of the Des Moines class has always a fire rate of 10 rounds per minute (6 seconds) indipendently from the angle

I know the modern ones can do that, yes. Didn't know about the des moines. And you could technically do that if you built the mechanism appropriately, the question is does in-game tech go to that point? I saw it mentioned that these autoloaders aren't meant to represent something  as advanced as post-WW2 tech. So I guess the main question would be how advanced are we talking, and how much tonnage that would require. But as I said earlier to me it would be good to have 2 options - one with a lighter, limited elevation system, and one heavier without elevation penalties though possibly with a reduced fire rate.

[Jay Gatsby]

7 minutes ago, JANXOL said:

I know the modern ones can do that, yes. Didn't know about the des moines. And you could technically do that if you built the mechanism appropriately, the question is does in-game tech go to that point? I saw it mentioned that these autoloaders aren't meant to represent something  as advanced as post-WW2 tech. So I guess the main question would be how advanced are we talking, and how much tonnage that would require. But as I said earlier to me it would be good to have 2 options - one with a lighter, limited elevation system, and one heavier without elevation penalties though possibly with a reduced fire rate.

The Des Moines was the first warship to have autoloaders for its guns, before that there were no autoloaders

[Christian]

1 hour ago, JANXOL said:

I know the modern ones can do that, yes. Didn't know about the des moines. And you could technically do that if you built the mechanism appropriately, the question is does in-game tech go to that point? I saw it mentioned that these autoloaders aren't meant to represent something  as advanced as post-WW2 tech. So I guess the main question would be how advanced are we talking, and how much tonnage that would require. But as I said earlier to me it would be good to have 2 options - one with a lighter, limited elevation system, and one heavier without elevation penalties though possibly with a reduced fire rate.

autoloaders is a 1945+ thing

fast manual loaded guns such as the 5"/38 and japanese 100mm gun were still manually loaded even though their maximum rof was 20-25 round per minute (for short periods of time) as the hoists could only supply 15 rounds per minute

generally all angle loading is reserved for sub 6 inch guns (aka manhandled guns basically 5 inch guns and below)

for example the american 5"/38 the crew was expected to uphold a firerate of atleast 15 round per minute (we have a museum ship in denmark which has the 5"/38 i asked one of the gunnery veterans and they claimed they were expected to uphold 18 round per minute though as the hoists can only supply 15 rounds per minute i doubt this)

if a gun is labelled at dual purpose its quite likely it had all angle loading or at least improved angle loading

Edited October 12, 2019 by Christian

[Nick Thomadis]

The first reload mechanisms had some significant limitations in maximum gun elevation and turret traverse speed, and we try to simulate these limitations, not only for realism but for game balance. Other late technologies, should compensate for those deficiencies. We can add more reload options for late ships that will cost much more and be heavier but will not have any deficiencies.

PS. Quick firing guns may have initially smaller accuracy, but due to their rapid firing they increase their aiming faster, so they can be in practice more accurate, than the slower loading guns.

This is why we have to balance the effect of this component, because it can become overpowered.

 

[Pedroig]

On 10/12/2019 at 1:12 PM, Niomedes said:

Fire rates in general are very low in this game when compared to reality.

Disagree, at least for the big guns, 2.5 rounds per minute was considered maximum firing rate through the end of WWII. 
 

For the smaller guns, they don’t have a quick fire option, which for 6” guns could burn through the on hand rounds in about 10 minutes, with a 30 minute restock time under ideal conditions. 

For casemates, no auto-stabilizers which means having to reload and then time firing with roll of the ship as well. 

[Ishtar]

15 minutes ago, Pedroig said:

Disagree, at least for the big guns, 2.5 rounds per minute was considered maximum firing rate through the end of WWII. 
 

For the smaller guns, they don’t have a quick fire option, which for 6” guns could burn through the on hand rounds in about 10 minutes, with a 30 minute restock time under ideal conditions. 

For casemates, no auto-stabilizers which means having to reload and then time firing with roll of the ship as well. 

Washington was making 1.5 salvos a minute at Guadalcanal, so that isn't true at all

[Niomedes]

21 minutes ago, Pedroig said:

Disagree, at least for the big guns, 2.5 rounds per minute was considered maximum firing rate through the end of WWII. 

The Radetzky class battleships achieved up to 3 rounds per minute with their 305mm guns as early as 1908.

[KiloZulu]

Does anyone know if the angle of the gun during reloading actually had any bearing on the aiming of the gun?  I would imagine that control of the guns would be restricted during the loading process for safety, but whoever was aiming would still be tracking targets.  The gun just wouldn't be able to fire until loading was complete and they were given back control of the gun.  I was an army tanker, and this is the way the systems work in tanks - I would imagine that ship guns would work the same?

[admin]

On 10/12/2019 at 6:34 PM, Jay Gatsby said:

Why does the enhanced/automatic gun reload reduce accuracy and range? In real life only the weight and the cost increase with an autoloader, accuracy and range are not reduced, I think that this game should be more realistic rather than arcade, avoiding situations like this.

Its just not a proper description. It was written some time ago and need update. 

In reality here is what happens. 
Early Heavier machinery reduces elevation = reduces distance
Faster reload because of heavier machinery = reduces ability to adjust aim so accuracy is lower

But the description is all over the place. and need to be replaced.  New upgrades will be introduced (especially in the campaign) that will later cancel out elevation and accuracy penalties.

[admin]

1 hour ago, Ishtar said:

Washington was making 1.5 salvos a minute at Guadalcanal, so that isn't true at all

 

57 minutes ago, Niomedes said:

The Radetzky class battleships achieved up to 3 rounds per minute with their 305mm guns as early as 1908.

would be awesome to read sources on this.. will help a lot (any links or screens from books) inlcuding book names.

[Niomedes]

51 minutes ago, admin said:

 

would be awesome to read sources on this.. will help a lot (any links or screens from books) inlcuding book names.

The source is the report from the 22nd of August 1911 Gunnery Exercises performed by Radetzky. They're accessible in the Austrian state Archive's Kriegsarchiv section. I don't know if that has been cited in any english language book so far.