mod J & P Rebalance Mod by JonnyH13 and Pandakraut 05/06/2023 1.28.4

[Gsam]

11 hours ago, pandakraut said:

The AI is limited to at most 10 detached skirmishers out at one time. As these get destroyed, new ones will get deployed if enough AI infantry units are available. The AI is limited to one skirmisher per infantry just like the player. There are config options available to change the amount the AI can have out or remove this entirely if preferred. Definitely takes a bit to adjust to, but once you get used to it there are still plenty of options in my experience.

When engaging packs of enemy skirmishers you really need multiple cav units otherwise you'll get shot to pieces as you've found. Skirmishers have significant melee penalties, but these can be offset if the AI's stats are high enough compared to the players. But from what you've described it sounds more like an issue of engagement timing. I always try to setup situations where my cavalry can melee without getting shot at, otherwise the attrition is just too high. Isolating units or having other units distracting nearby AI units that could fire into the melee is usually how I go about that, but it takes a lot of micro and practice.

I usually deal with enemy skirmishers by drawing them into my main firing line where I can blast them with multiple artillery and infantry units. Their biggest weakness is lack of morale staying power so you can clear them out somewhat quick with this approach. 

In previous versions far far too much time was available. This lead to players being able to achieve extremely favorable results and the campaign being much easier than desired. In the updated battles we have aimed to give the player some time to maneuver or prep an area to assault, but not give them enough time that they can pick the AI apart. Some battles will be tighter than others, and in many it will be harder to kill every enemy unit unless you play more aggressively.

For example, the intention with artillery is that you can still open up a hole in the enemy line, but you then need to send infantry to exploit it, compared to prior versions where the artillery could largely kill everything by themselves. Union 2nd bull run is one of the better examples of this. Previously the battle was extremely easy, and now you actually have to press to achieve the objectives in time.

While I understand that more restrictive timers can be frustrating, putting time pressure on the player results in better overall difficulty and more interesting gameplay decisions in my opinion. As an artillery focused player, I certainly enjoy the slow advance, but when too much time is allowed you just fast forward until everything dies.

I feel like the timers are mostly in a good spot currently, but the timer configs do still exist so if you want a little extra time you could set them to 1.05 or 1.1. Note there are some bugs that exist if the endofDayMultiplier is increased too much compared to the timerRecommended and timerMandatory values, so I'd keep any increases to it to 1.025 or 1.05.

Definitely a high risk, high reward unit. I've seen plenty of results from people with 2-4k+ kill totals on these units, so I think they can still be quite effective. One thing that can help with keeping them alive is putting them on hold position. This lowers their overall dps but prevents the stealth penalty from firing from stacking up so high which means you can set and forget them more reliably without them getting spotted.

I've mostly taken medicine as a 3rd or 4th option. It's useful but early on I need money/weapons/stats more so I'll focus on other options. Restoring 0 or low 1* men isn't too valuable and my few units that are more experienced I do my best to keep casualties very low on. Any men restored do keep their weapons, though that currently only applies to the 'wounded' pool rather than all your casualties. That is something that may get adjusted as it makes medicine worse early game while it still ends up very strong late game.

Definitely a tough battle, though I eventually managed to keep my total casualties down to about 30%. The newer units I had taking the brunt of the attacks in the center probably were higher than that though. I had my two best smoothbores sitting behind the center to help blast units that got into the woods out. This battle is immensely easier if you've managed to get 3-4 2*s by that point(I didn't and really felt it.) 

Constantly adjusting your line to draw skirmishers out in the open so you can hit them better, keeping up flanking efforts to the north and south, and having two fire brigades of cavalry to be able to quickly switch between helping out the top and bottom VPs is what eventually worked for me.

There is no magic number anymore. More guns always results in more damage. I tend to use 6-8 early game so that I can swap in better cannon faster as they become available. Moving up to 10-12 later depending on the unit. But that's more good cannon availability for the relatively low logistics investment setups that I use than anything else. 14-16 would pack more of a punch once your unit slots become a larger limiting factor.

I've gradually moved all my infantry to be bigger. 1500-2k range. Gives me more ability to absorb damage now that it's harder to limit your casualties as much as it was previously. Cavalry vary depending on weapons, but in the 400-800 range. Larger can be very effective as well. Sharpshooters are again limited by weapon availability, but I usually try to end up in the 350-400 range. These numbers are all from the perspective of someone who prefers smaller units, larger sizes can work.

3" are your generic do it all early rifled gun. They can get counterbattery done, but aren't good at it. James, 20pdrs, tredegars, siege, and whitworths will all perform that role much better, but won't be commonly available early game.

No, too many victory conditions break. They can be extended though, some details listed in an earlier response.

Common feedback is that smoothbores feel good, rifled guns feel lacking. But there is also consistent feedback from the players that stick with the rifled guns that they are still extremely strong once at 2 and 3 star with good cannon. There was a small generic buff to them in 1.28.3 but no current plans for more immediate changes. Long term there will likely be adjustments as we'd like to redo the entire perk tree, but that's not coming anytime soon.

I wouldn't rush them, but mid to late game they can be very good on specialized units. Their dps is unmatched for a skirmisher or infantry unit, but they also eat ammo so I wouldn't use them on standard line units. They can crush charges or do a ton of flanking damage very quickly if positioned correctly though.

Thanks for sticking with the mod over the years, hope these answers help a bit and if you have more questions just ask.

Fantastic info! thanks Panda!!! I learned so much from this.  Have a great new year!

[Gsam]

On 12/28/2022 at 9:19 PM, pandakraut said:

The AI is limited to at most 10 detached skirmishers out at one time. As these get destroyed, new ones will get deployed if enough AI infantry units are available. The AI is limited to one skirmisher per infantry just like the player. There are config options available to change the amount the AI can have out or remove this entirely if preferred. Definitely takes a bit to adjust to, but once you get used to it there are still plenty of options in my experience.

When engaging packs of enemy skirmishers you really need multiple cav units otherwise you'll get shot to pieces as you've found. Skirmishers have significant melee penalties, but these can be offset if the AI's stats are high enough compared to the players. But from what you've described it sounds more like an issue of engagement timing. I always try to setup situations where my cavalry can melee without getting shot at, otherwise the attrition is just too high. Isolating units or having other units distracting nearby AI units that could fire into the melee is usually how I go about that, but it takes a lot of micro and practice.

I usually deal with enemy skirmishers by drawing them into my main firing line where I can blast them with multiple artillery and infantry units. Their biggest weakness is lack of morale staying power so you can clear them out somewhat quick with this approach. 

In previous versions far far too much time was available. This lead to players being able to achieve extremely favorable results and the campaign being much easier than desired. In the updated battles we have aimed to give the player some time to maneuver or prep an area to assault, but not give them enough time that they can pick the AI apart. Some battles will be tighter than others, and in many it will be harder to kill every enemy unit unless you play more aggressively.

For example, the intention with artillery is that you can still open up a hole in the enemy line, but you then need to send infantry to exploit it, compared to prior versions where the artillery could largely kill everything by themselves. Union 2nd bull run is one of the better examples of this. Previously the battle was extremely easy, and now you actually have to press to achieve the objectives in time.

While I understand that more restrictive timers can be frustrating, putting time pressure on the player results in better overall difficulty and more interesting gameplay decisions in my opinion. As an artillery focused player, I certainly enjoy the slow advance, but when too much time is allowed you just fast forward until everything dies.

I feel like the timers are mostly in a good spot currently, but the timer configs do still exist so if you want a little extra time you could set them to 1.05 or 1.1. Note there are some bugs that exist if the endofDayMultiplier is increased too much compared to the timerRecommended and timerMandatory values, so I'd keep any increases to it to 1.025 or 1.05.

Definitely a high risk, high reward unit. I've seen plenty of results from people with 2-4k+ kill totals on these units, so I think they can still be quite effective. One thing that can help with keeping them alive is putting them on hold position. This lowers their overall dps but prevents the stealth penalty from firing from stacking up so high which means you can set and forget them more reliably without them getting spotted.

I've mostly taken medicine as a 3rd or 4th option. It's useful but early on I need money/weapons/stats more so I'll focus on other options. Restoring 0 or low 1* men isn't too valuable and my few units that are more experienced I do my best to keep casualties very low on. Any men restored do keep their weapons, though that currently only applies to the 'wounded' pool rather than all your casualties. That is something that may get adjusted as it makes medicine worse early game while it still ends up very strong late game.

Definitely a tough battle, though I eventually managed to keep my total casualties down to about 30%. The newer units I had taking the brunt of the attacks in the center probably were higher than that though. I had my two best smoothbores sitting behind the center to help blast units that got into the woods out. This battle is immensely easier if you've managed to get 3-4 2*s by that point(I didn't and really felt it.) 

Constantly adjusting your line to draw skirmishers out in the open so you can hit them better, keeping up flanking efforts to the north and south, and having two fire brigades of cavalry to be able to quickly switch between helping out the top and bottom VPs is what eventually worked for me.

There is no magic number anymore. More guns always results in more damage. I tend to use 6-8 early game so that I can swap in better cannon faster as they become available. Moving up to 10-12 later depending on the unit. But that's more good cannon availability for the relatively low logistics investment setups that I use than anything else. 14-16 would pack more of a punch once your unit slots become a larger limiting factor.

I've gradually moved all my infantry to be bigger. 1500-2k range. Gives me more ability to absorb damage now that it's harder to limit your casualties as much as it was previously. Cavalry vary depending on weapons, but in the 400-800 range. Larger can be very effective as well. Sharpshooters are again limited by weapon availability, but I usually try to end up in the 350-400 range. These numbers are all from the perspective of someone who prefers smaller units, larger sizes can work.

3" are your generic do it all early rifled gun. They can get counterbattery done, but aren't good at it. James, 20pdrs, tredegars, siege, and whitworths will all perform that role much better, but won't be commonly available early game.

No, too many victory conditions break. They can be extended though, some details listed in an earlier response.

Common feedback is that smoothbores feel good, rifled guns feel lacking. But there is also consistent feedback from the players that stick with the rifled guns that they are still extremely strong once at 2 and 3 star with good cannon. There was a small generic buff to them in 1.28.3 but no current plans for more immediate changes. Long term there will likely be adjustments as we'd like to redo the entire perk tree, but that's not coming anytime soon.

I wouldn't rush them, but mid to late game they can be very good on specialized units. Their dps is unmatched for a skirmisher or infantry unit, but they also eat ammo so I wouldn't use them on standard line units. They can crush charges or do a ton of flanking damage very quickly if positioned correctly though.

Thanks for sticking with the mod over the years, hope these answers help a bit and if you have more questions just ask.

I think I hit the end of my campaign this go around.

 

I am playing as CSA on regular difficulty.  I am at antietam and I am just getting swamped by 3x the numbers I have.  I am roughly ~30k infantry, and about 200 guns.  2 full corps with 20 brigades per   1500 man infantry, 300 man sharpshooters and anywhere from 12-20 guns.  4 cavalry units 2 melee 2 carbine.   I am facing off against enemy infantry counts in the ~70k range and they have roughly 350 guns.  I simply cannot hold the massed kamikaze charges despite having  brigades supporting behind every brigade.   Artillery just doesn't chew them up quick enough.  Perhaps I am playing this wrong.

[Gsam]

2 hours ago, Gsam said:

I think I hit the end of my campaign this go around.

 

I am playing as CSA on regular difficulty.  I am at antietam and I am just getting swamped by 3x the numbers I have.  I am roughly ~30k infantry, and about 200 guns.  2 full corps with 20 brigades per   1500 man infantry, 300 man sharpshooters and anywhere from 12-20 guns.  4 cavalry units 2 melee 2 carbine.   I am facing off against enemy infantry counts in the ~70k range and they have roughly 350 guns.  I simply cannot hold the massed kamikaze charges despite having  brigades supporting behind every brigade.   Artillery just doesn't chew them up quick enough.  Perhaps I am playing this wrong.

went back to drawing board.  Spent about 200k to make a bunch of speedbump 0 star units. Increased army size by about 10k.   Managed to pull it off.  Army is pretty well shot to shit  ~37% casualties. Most of it from my front line units. The speedbumps were in the 3rd position holding the flank at the bottom of the map.

 

Before anyone asks why I spent 200k on speedbump units I didn't. I took the 200k and upgraded my * and ** units to give them better guns and then took the 1842 and reboreds and gave them to the speedbump units.

 

(removed general name because its my personal name)

 

[pandakraut]

Only 2 corps for Antietam is going to be pretty rough. Glad to hear that expanding your army worked out though.

[Gsam]

1 hour ago, pandakraut said:

Only 2 corps for Antietam is going to be pretty rough. Glad to hear that expanding your army worked out though.

Is the skill that allows units that dont participate in the battles essential?  I am noticing I need to use my stronger unit to win battles with acceptable losses, but If I don't use the * star units,  They do not progress.

[pandakraut]

I think you'll want at least some points in training eventually. Makes it very easy to get all your units to 1* and eventually makes it fairly easy to get 2*s.

The aspect where it gives XP to units not in the battle is useful but not essential in my opinion. That was mostly added because otherwise there would be incentives to try and disband your units into various pools to get the training bonuses.

[dixiePig]

Fatigue is much more of a factor now.  Understandably so.

• Does a unit refresh itself more quickly if in a fortification?
• What techniques will help a unit to recover more effectively?
• What behaviors will weaken a unit (i.e. How much can a unit [Run]?

Entrenchment

• Can you indicate on the map if unit has been able to construct entrenchments (by remaining in place in a defensive posture  for a while)?
• and - what is the defensive value of entrenchment?

Accidental Rout

If I move a unit towards the edge of the map, it will sometimes Rout.  Is this a fixable bug?  How can I recover from it before I lose the unit?

Multi-day Battles

In the pause between days of a major battle, it is possible to reinforce the units of your Army.

• If I reinforce units with Recruits, do they get full XP from the battle?

It seems that loading in lots of Recruits would be a wise strategy

 

 

Edited January 5, 2023 by dixiePig
follow-up

[Gsam]

8 hours ago, dixiePig said:

Fatigue is much more of a factor now.  Understandably so.

• Does a unit refresh itself more quickly if in a fortification?
• What techniques will help a unit to recover more effectively?
• What behaviors will weaken a unit (i.e. How much can a unit [Run]?

Entrenchment

• Can you indicate on the map if unit has been able to construct entrenchments (by remaining in place in a defensive posture  for a while)?
• and - what is the defensive value of entrenchment?

Accidental Rout

If I move a unit towards the edge of the map, it will sometimes Rout.  Is this a fixable bug?  How can I recover from it before I lose the unit?

Multi-day Battles

In the pause between days of a major battle, it is possible to reinforce the units of your Army.

• If I reinforce units with Recruits, do they get full XP from the battle?

It seems that loading in lots of Recruits would be a wise strategy

 

 

Great questions!

[pandakraut]

On 1/5/2023 at 11:05 AM, dixiePig said:

Fatigue is much more of a factor now.  Understandably so.

• Does a unit refresh itself more quickly if in a fortification?
• What techniques will help a unit to recover more effectively?
• What behaviors will weaken a unit (i.e. How much can a unit [Run]?

There are no condition regen bonuses in fortifications, but since units in them are never moving they end up losing less condition than if they were taking the same actions(melee, rotating to fire, etc)

Every action a unit takes other than standing still has a condition drain, so standing still while not firing or reloading is the fastest way to regenerate condition. In the base game dealing damage to a target provided an increase to condition but these have all been made negative in the mod.

Running applies a higher condition drain than walking, worse terrain will result in a unit taking longer to go the same distance which means the drain applies for longer. The higher the units stamina, the higher their condition regen, so they can run for longer and recover faster.

On 1/5/2023 at 11:05 AM, dixiePig said:

Entrenchment

• Can you indicate on the map if unit has been able to construct entrenchments (by remaining in place in a defensive posture  for a while)?
• and - what is the defensive value of entrenchment?

When a unit starts to dig in their unit shield will display a black outline. As they spend more time digging in this outline starts to turn white. When fully dug in the shield will look the same as if the unit was in a regular fortification. I tried to get more differences in the colors and to use different colors and it just didn't work for whatever reason. 

I couldn't figure out a way to get any kind of indicator for where the center of the dig in point for a specific unit is to display on the battle or minimap.

The digin bonus increases up to 10%. This is an additive 10% on top of whatever the units normal cover % would be.

On 1/5/2023 at 11:05 AM, dixiePig said:

Accidental Rout

If I move a unit towards the edge of the map, it will sometimes Rout.  Is this a fixable bug?  How can I recover from it before I lose the unit?

One of the features that devs included was that instead of hitting the rout button you can just click off the map to get the unit to rout. Normally not a big problem, but if you're selecting units right as they come on it is possible to lose them with a miss click. Under more normal circumstances should be able to give the unit any other order and they will stop routing.

On 1/5/2023 at 11:05 AM, dixiePig said:

Multi-day Battles

In the pause between days of a major battle, it is possible to reinforce the units of your Army.

• If I reinforce units with Recruits, do they get full XP from the battle?

It seems that loading in lots of Recruits would be a wise strategy

Yes this can be done. However, when doing this it resets the "starting" stats of the unit. You won't lose any stats gained and will continue to gain xp normally throughout the rest of the battle. Where this ends up mattering is the end of the battle. 

Since officer xp is determined by comparing starting stats to ending stats, adding recruits and resetting the starting point results in less xp earned by the officer.

Additionally, adding recruits mess with the post battle numbers so the total casualties will not be accurate.

One final issue/exploit is that scaling only applies when a battle is started, so you can make lots of very small units on day 1 of Fredericksburg or 2nd Bull run, then add tons of recruits and end up facing less AI strength than if you had added those recruits initially. Not a huge deal considering that scaling can be more easily adjusted as desired through the configs, but something to be aware of.

I personally almost never add recruits during multi-day battles due to the variety of issues and because I usually either have nothing to spare or am just moving units between corps. Maybe one day I'll figure out how to not reset the stats and also fix the likely bugs that will result.

 

[dixiePig]

17 hours ago, pandakraut said:

I personally almost never add recruits during multi-day battles due to the variety of issues and because I usually either have nothing to spare or am just moving units between corps. Maybe one day I'll figure out how to not reset the stats and also fix the likely bugs that will result.

 

Thanks for the clear, candid responses, PK

The inter-day replacements seem a little unrealistic to begin with - and the stats & XP dynamics (as you explain them) are really odd.  Maybe just forgo the whole process?  New troop reinforcement units are sensible enough, but overnight replacements to existing units ... not so much.  More sensible:  The ability to replace officers from the Barracks.

It appears that 'permanent' in-map entrenchments can be captured from the enemy, but not effectively re-used, if the enemy is attacking from the opposite direction.  It seems to me that "a trench is a trench" - and would still have value as such. Clarification?

 I have found no effective way to re-stabilize a unit which is accidentally routed

Edited January 7, 2023 by dixiePig
clarity

[dixiePig]

Fatigue

Detached Skirmishers (and Sharpshooter units) always move in [run] mode.  Do they fatigue as a result?

Is there a 'rule of thumb' for determining how far a unit can [run] before suffering crippling fatigue?  I am tempted to 'hurry' units towards a critical battle, but know that there is a price.  How do I determine the cost?

[Gsam]

45 minutes ago, dixiePig said:

Fatigue

Detached Skirmishers (and Sharpshooter units) always move in [run] mode.  Do they fatigue as a result?

Is there a 'rule of thumb' for determining how far a unit can [run] before suffering crippling fatigue?  I am tempted to 'hurry' units towards a critical battle, but know that there is a price.  How do I determine the cost?

While we are on the subject on fatigue @pandakraut does it work the same way for the CPU?  I am playing Fredericksburg as CSA and the opening engagement has the union troops running full speed through swaps to get into the forest.  IT does not seem like they have any ill effects on condition because of it.

[pandakraut]

1 hour ago, dixiePig said:

The inter-day replacements seem a little unrealistic to begin with - and the stats & XP dynamics (as you explain them) are really odd.  Maybe just forgo the whole process?  New troop reinforcement units are sensible enough, but overnight replacements to existing units ... not so much.  More sensible:  The ability to replace officers from the Barracks.

Will consider removing it. It's just one of those been there forever things that players can get real grumpy about suddenly being removed. Would certainly simplify things since I wouldn't have to worry about any stat problems.

Officers can also be replaced as long as you have them in your barracks or the ability to purchase from the academy. Though I have had to disable moving officers from one unit to another as that allowed duping them.

1 hour ago, dixiePig said:

It appears that 'permanent' in-map entrenchments can be captured from the enemy, but not effectively re-used, if the enemy is attacking from the opposite direction.  It seems to me that "a trench is a trench" - and would still have value as such. Clarification?

Fortifications in game all have specific front and rear facings that remain the same regardless of who occupies it or what direction they are firing. 

While I do think there is an argument for there being reduced effectiveness of fortifications when used in an unintended direction, especially for more advanced trenches with firing platforms and the like, this is really more a technical limitation than anything specifically intentional. 

You do still get the full bonuses from an occupied enemy fortification, but if you're taking any kind of fire from the rear arc that is going to come with enough of a boost in morale damage that it likely counters any benefit from the rest of the fortification bonuses.

1 hour ago, dixiePig said:

I have found no effective way to re-stabilize a unit which is accidentally routed

Is this different than if you rout them using the button instead of clicking off map? This occurs even if the unit is far from the map edge? I've never had any issue just reselecting the unit and giving it some order so I'm not quite sure what is happening here.

58 minutes ago, dixiePig said:

Detached Skirmishers (and Sharpshooter units) always move in [run] mode.  Do they fatigue as a result?

Technically yes, but the drain rate is not the same as it is for infantry so nothing to really worry about here. They'll end up moving further before exhausting than anny infantry unit unless speed perks are significantly stacked against them.

58 minutes ago, dixiePig said:

Is there a 'rule of thumb' for determining how far a unit can [run] before suffering crippling fatigue?  I am tempted to 'hurry' units towards a critical battle, but know that there is a price.  How do I determine the cost?

At the top of the unitModifiers file you can see the multipliers that apply to various stats based on condition state. I usually don't feel that it's worth running units to arrive sooner with less condition except over very short distances. Other players seem to get away with it just fine though, so just need to experiment to see what you are comfortable with. I would prefer not to start any kind of fight with less than 70% condition if I can avoid it(often can't.)

Edited January 7, 2023 by pandakraut

[pandakraut]

7 minutes ago, Gsam said:

While we are on the subject on fatigue @pandakraut does it work the same way for the CPU?  I am playing Fredericksburg as CSA and the opening engagement has the union troops running full speed through swaps to get into the forest.  IT does not seem like they have any ill effects on condition because of it.

Assuming all other factors are equal, yes this works exactly the same for the ai as the player. Union condition drain rates are slightly higher than the CSA and the AI often has higher stats than player units depending on difficulty, so in those cases the AI units may perform better. But if the player had units with those stats of the same side they'd get the same result.

Not sure if this is what you meant, but the union units in that battle can spawn directly into the forest instead of having to walk there like the player would and they start at full condition. Only way I could get the AI to attack from that direction.

[Gsam]

1 minute ago, pandakraut said:

Assuming all other factors are equal, yes this works exactly the same for the ai as the player. Union condition drain rates are slightly higher than the CSA and the AI often has higher stats than player units depending on difficulty, so in those cases the AI units may perform better. But if the player had units with those stats of the same side they'd get the same result.

Not sure if this is what you meant, but the union units in that battle can spawn directly into the forest instead of having to walk there like the player would and they start at full condition. Only way I could get the AI to attack from that direction.

You answered my question. Thank you Panda!

[FortunoTredicim]

On 12/19/2022 at 12:39 PM, megnet said:

Hi Pandakraut...

Love your work... thx for all you do.

 

I have a special request, if possible.

Can you pack your MOD files in a way that is "WE MOD TRAINER" friendly?

All you would have to do is place the actual files in "MOD" folder, instead of "MOD/REBALANCE" folder?

This will allow WE MOD TRAINER to work.

 

I have played UGCW million times, and using the TRAINER adds certain replayability options that make the game fresh.

If I knew how do it myself, I would... but sadly I don't have the skills.

Thx for your consideration.

 

M.E.G..

 

Hello Pandakraut - 

I would also LOVE to be able to use We Mod with your mod. I know it would take some extra work on your part to make 2 different packages so you can maintain the UI mod... 

 

I think to answer one of your questions you had for MEG, in regards to what it adds is the ability to use any weapon in the game at any time to play with different "builds" or armies. (At least thats what I like to do) 

Anyway, just thought I would ping the topic and see if you ever had a chance to consider it. 

Thanks!

-Fortuno

[dixiePig]

CAREER : Army Org

As noted in a previous post, level 1 of AO is redundant (and therefore meaningless) because the first stage of setup requires you to select an option which includes a point of AO.

After that, you need to select AO fairly often during the initial CAMP phase, if you are to have an army which can  participate effectively, particularly if you prefer to keep troop levels modest and in keeping with historical accuracy (i.e. several modestly-sized brigades, rather than a few huuuuuge brigades).

The current AO progression prevents you from having 3 Divisions with 5 Brigades in a Corps until you reach AO: Level4 - even though you can have - but cannot actually utilize - 2 Corps in your Army. You are faced with early minor battles in which you can have only 1 corps involved but still need 13-15 Brigades (CSA: Ambush, Alert, 1st Winchester, Cross Keys, and Port Republic). 

This top-heavy, awkward, inflexible, historically inaccurate AO structure means that you must spend most of your CAREER points during the early campaigns building AO that you can't actually use.

• The dynamics of UGCW mean that you have few & weak Officers in the early stages and a hodgepodge of weapons. OK, that's historically accurate: the Union lacked Officers / the Confederates lacked weapons. 
• But the artificial constraints of UGCW's AO mean that you can't build an army without getting really top-heavy in the early stages. 

Wouldn't it be nice if you could assemble an Army made up of a bunch of smaller disparate units in the early stages of the war - and then consolidate them into a more coherent, consistent force over the course of the war?  This would reflect the historical progression - as well as the common-sense practicalities of the times. 

• In the early days of the Civil War, regiments were recruited in a local community - and often outfitted (uniforms, equipment) - by a regional powerbroker, who then appointed himself as commander of the unit. Army 'standards' (both North and South) were approximate at best.  Army commanders accepted the troops gratefully and integrated them into the larger organization as best they could, but armies in the first year of the war were a hodgepodge of flags, uniforms, weapons, and unit sizes.

@pandaKraut : I don't know if You can do this, but I believe that it would improve the dynamics of the game:

1. Allow an Army to have more smaller units in the early days: Perhaps 6 brigades per Division after the first battle
2. Advancement in AO allows you to have more Divisions, but fewer Brigades-per-Division (The excess Brigades can be transferred to the new Divisions - or disbanded).  Perhaps AO: Level2 allows 2 Divisions of 6 Brigades and AO: Level 3 allows 3 Divisions of 5 Brigades. This allows you to fight the smaller early battles without investing all of your CAREER points in AO.
3. Let's face it; you don't really need an additional Corps until Gaines Mill - the 10th battle

In this way the overall number of units in the battlefield  remains manageable, while the growth of the Army is more organic and realistic.  Lower-ranked Officers and troops can earn XP through battle - especially since TRAINING is now less valuable in that role (understandably so).

• BTW:  What actual value does TRAINING offer now?  I find that I can manage my Army's unit perks  by adding available Veterans from the pool when I build the unit. After that it's all battle XP. There's no point in trying to 'game' the system further after you get the first *star*.  That's actually a good thing imo, but what point is there to spending CAREER points on TRAINING?

The restructuring of AO allows for more flexible playing styles.

• Aside: The historical Civil War armies had slightly different approaches to Army structure.  This makes for more flexibility and variety.  What if:  the AO progression is slightly different for the Union and the Confederate ...?
• The dynamics of battles differ.  Some are 'big battles' involving multiple Corps.  The majority are 'modest battles' involving only 1 Corps (or less).  Might the AO vary slightly on a per-battle basis?

I believe that structural changes (s.a. AO and other CAREER elements) will keep the UGCW Rebalance fresh and lively - perhaps even more so than changes to battle dynamics

Thanks again for the evolution. 

Edited January 20, 2023 by dixiePig
clarification & follow-up

[dixiePig]

CAREER : RECONNAISSANCE

Reconnaissance has vastly increased value now, so I make a point of ramping up on it early in the game, so as to reap the benefits of 'spoils of war' throughout the game.  But the progression is a little weird:  Most of the early Reconnaissance advancements require that you take 2 steps before you get benefits. This is:

1. odd (i.e. unlike the other CAREER advancements) where you get benefits after 1 step
2. pretty much requires that you advance only after Major Battles, where you have 2 CAREER points available

It's awkward and artificial.

Is this just "the way it is"?

 

[dixiePig]

CAREER Path

Most world-building games offer a map of the advancements as part of the interface.  UGCW could benefit from this, as the CAREER advancement structure ... is a little weird.

It would be helpful to have an Advancement Map which could also be tied to the Battle Schedule, as well as the Army Requirements for each battle (since that determines what kind of Army you need at each stage).

Another alternative is to present Battles on a schedule (i.e. no player choice) and to vary the size and disposition of the AI armies.  This would introduce some variety and surprise into the chronology of the minor battles.  Gameplay:

• Step 1:  You reconstitute and reinforce your base army after a battle
• Step 2:  The game presents you with the next minor battle scenario (you have no choice)
• Step 3: You build your Order of Battle from whatever you have in your Arrmy
• It offers change, challenge, and variety

The vast majority of the 18 Minor battles (both Union and Confederate) before Gettysburg involve an Army of 10-16 Brigades and only 1 Corps.

The individual scenarios are fairly interchangeable (Let's admit that the historical references are mostly "approximate")

If those battles were presented somewhat randomly, there would be some more variety to the overall game.

I realize that there are real technical limits on what can and cannot be done in the mod.  Trying to suggest ways in which the fundamentals of the game remain, but there's a little more variety in the play.

Just sptiballin'

Here's a homemade table showing the battles, Army sizes, #Army Org needed, and battle notes.  Incomplete, marginally accurate, but refeential.

 

Battle	Brigade	Thumbnail
Capture Phillipi	4	Attack/defend town + allies
Distress Call	10	Defend supply depots + allies	Org: 3
1st Bull Run	12	Attack river + allies	Org: 4
River Crossing	14	Attack 2 hills
Logan's Crossroads	5 / 9	Defend / reinforcements
Shiloh	9/5  - 9	Defend + allies	Org: 5/6
Secure River	14	Attack capture hill
Rendezvous	6/7	Meeting, reinforced
Seven Pines	8	Take center + allies
Gaines Mill	12-12/12	Defend
Malvern Hill	11-9/20	Defend -2 waves
Kettle Run	9	Attack, take camp, cav late
Thoroughfare Gap	12	Defend blocking action
(rufus King)		Short battle
2nd Bull Run	48/24/24	Attack fortified position
South Mountain	24	Take Hill
Crampton's Gap	12	Attack
Antietam	24/24/24	Attack / north & bridge
Iuka	12	Attack
Perryville	16	Defend
Fredericksburg	25/25/25	Attack 3positions	Org : 7
Parker's Crossroads	12	defend
Stones River	24/24/24	defend
Nansemond River	16	Advance against fortifications
Supply Raid	6+	[ allies ] cav captures supply
Siege of Suffolk	22	Defend fortifications, gunboats
Chancellorsville	25/25	Attack / flanking
Saunders Farm	10	Follows immediately on Chancelloersville
Brandy station		defend
Gettysburg	25/15/20	Attack
Siege of Jackson	20	Defend (fortifications)
Chickamauga	25/25	Attack
Mansfield	25	Attack
Saunders Farm	25/10	Assault attacking force
Laurel Hill	25	Defend
Cold Harbor	25/25/10
Hall's Ferry	25/25
Hardin Pike	25/25	Attack entrenchments
Washington	25/25

 

Edited January 20, 2023 by dixiePig

[pandakraut]

8 hours ago, dixiePig said:

CAREER : RECONNAISSANCE

Reconnaissance has vastly increased value now, so I make a point of ramping up on it early in the game, so as to reap the benefits of 'spoils of war' throughout the game.  But the progression is a little weird:  Most of the early Reconnaissance advancements require that you take 2 steps before you get benefits. This is:

1. odd (i.e. unlike the other CAREER advancements) where you get benefits after 1 step
2. pretty much requires that you advance only after Major Battles, where you have 2 CAREER points available

It's awkward and artificial.

Is this just "the way it is"?

 

In the base game the devs setup the recon benefits to be every 2 levels. I don't have any details on why they went that path.

In the mod there should now be benefits every level. Spotting and weapon recovery rates go up with every point. We've also added extra benefits like showing enemy flanking indicators so you get something extra on the odd numbers. I thought I updated the tooltips to show all of that, but only being able to show the +1 tooltip is really limiting.

[pandakraut]

7 hours ago, dixiePig said:

The individual scenarios are fairly interchangeable (Let's admit that the historical references are mostly "approximate")

If those battles were presented somewhat randomly, there would be some more variety to the overall game.

I realize that there are real technical limits on what can and cannot be done in the mod.  Trying to suggest ways in which the fundamentals of the game remain, but there's a little more variety in the play.

Sadly can't switch up which battles get presented when. There are some choice type possibilities for effects on specific battles, but have so far not implemented that in favor of the randomized spawn locations in some battles. 

Will probably try to get something like that in at some point.

On 1/15/2023 at 10:14 AM, dixiePig said:

• Allow an Army to have more smaller units in the early days: Perhaps 6 brigades per Division after the first battle
• Advancement in AO allows you to have more Divisions, but fewer Brigades-per-Division (The excess Brigades can be transferred to the new Divisions - or disbanded).  Perhaps AO: Level2 allows 2 Divisions of 6 Brigades and AO: Level 3 allows 3 Divisions of 5 Brigades. This allows you to fight the smaller early battles without investing all of your CAREER points in AO.
• Let's face it; you don't really need an additional Corps until Gaines Mill - the 10th battle

Lowering division brigade amounts is messy because there isn't really a way to force the player to reassign units after the division size shrinks.

The benefits of AO early on are more the increased brigades that can be fielded than the number of corps. Though for the union at least you absolutely need that second corps by Shiloh.

AO stuff is tricky because we have to make sure both campaigns can deploy enough units in the first 10 battles or so. We do want the player to have to burn points into AO as it slows down certain career points rushing paths. If weren't as limited technically we would probably alter it more dramatically.

On 1/15/2023 at 10:14 AM, dixiePig said:

BTW:  What actual value does TRAINING offer now?  I find that I can manage my Army's unit perks  by adding available Veterans from the pool when I build the unit. After that it's all battle XP. There's no point in trying to 'game' the system further after you get the first *star*.  That's actually a good thing imo, but what point is there to spending CAREER points on TRAINING?

Training improves your recruits and units that don't participate in battles as well as reducing veteran cost. The veteran cost part is mostly just a side bonus, but it does enable some camp tricks where you can repurpose high veterancy units on the fly.

The recruit training makes getting 1*s easy as you noted, but it also helps you retain more of those combat stats when replacing with recruits. At higher levels with a good officer you can hit 2* pretty quickly as well.

I still do quite a bit of manipulation of officers, vets, and recruits to get 2 and 3* units earlier. Might not always be necessary but there are options available I think.

[dixiePig]

Many thanks for the thoughtful & informative responses to my voluminous questions, @pandaKraut

Quote

Sadly can't switch up which battles get presented when. ... Will probably try to get something like that in at some point

• Understood.  Thanks for the interim changes, which improve playability tremendously.

Quote

Lowering division brigade amounts is messy because there isn't really a way to force the player to reassign units after the division size shrinks.

It's a kluge, but perhaps just present a popup that says something like "Advancing to AO Level 3 means that you cannot have more than 5 Brigades in a Division.  Please reassign excess units now."

• At a certain point in the CSA game I automatically receive an extra unit (Forrest's cavalry) and the ui seems to accept it gracefully: Forrest appears as the 6th unit in the 1st Division. I usually move it to an 'open' slot, but  - what happens if I don't?  Does UGCW kill Forrest?
• Alternative solution:  Just allow 6 Brigades per Division from the beginning.  Is that too much overhead for the battle interface?  I doubt it.  Simple.  Makes sense.  Fits the model.  Allows some much-needed flexibility up front.  (You reach the 6 Brigade threshold eventually anyhow ...)  Now I can get thru the first 10 battles without obsessing about AO.  Plus all the other benefits.
• One of those benefits:  I haven't tested it out, but ... having more smaller units allows you to rest one small unit while the other small is fighting.  Especially since Fatigue is more of a factor now.  

Quote

but it does enable some camp tricks where you can re-purpose high veterancy units on the fly.  also ... I still do quite a bit of manipulation of officers, vets, and recruits to get 2 and 3* units earlier. Might not always be necessary but there are options available I think.

• Intriguing.  What does this mean?  Please share the 'camp trick' and 'manipulation' techniques

I'm generally not a fan of cheatcodes or "gaming the game", tho sometimes they're necessary.

imo:

Thanks again for a great mod.

.

 

Edited January 21, 2023 by dixiePig

[dixiePig]

hmmmm ... just won Malvern Hill as MG-level CSA:  Looking forward to the next major battle at 2nd Bull Run, where I will want to have 24 Brigades in one Corps.

So I look at AO in CAREER and discover that - even if I ramp up to AO Level 7, the mod will not allow me to have 4 Divisions of 6 Brigades in my Corps.

Deliberate or unintentional?

Any way around it?

Interesting that this follows immediately on my rant about wanting to have more Brigades ...

[pandakraut]

2 hours ago, dixiePig said:

So I look at AO in CAREER and discover that - even if I ramp up to AO Level 7, the mod will not allow me to have 4 Divisions of 6 Brigades in my Corps.

AO 9 to max out your brigades per corps at 5 divisions with 5 brigades each. I usually plan to go from 5-9 post Malvern hill.

If the player ends up with extra units in a division they'll work normally, you just have to be careful not to move them out because you can't put them back. This is why the base game let corps deploy 25 when the normal max was 24. Too annoying to bother with in my opinion as it's very easily to accidentally mess up when shifting units around.

Putting some kind of enforcement message when downsizing divisions could probably be done. But keeping the heavy emphasis on AO investment as a limiting factor on ability to invest in other places is currently a positive in my opinion. Smaller divisions also makes it harder to just use one good officer to max out efficiency on a lot of units at once.

Someone recently got all the way to CSA 2nd bull run with only ao 3 on MG, so while it's definitely not the easiest path it is apparently possible to skip that investment.

The camp stuff with veterans is hard to quickly cover in its entirety but here are a few things that can be done. I wouldn't really considering any of these cheats, they are just finding ways to get the most value out of the systems provided.

The core is disbanding high veterancy unit into an empty veteran pool. From there you can use the veterans to boost multiple new units up to 1*. Can also be used to get harder to level unit types up to 2* quickly. For example, skirmishers, arty or cav. 

When combined with moving officers around there is quite to think about in camp. Do I leave a good officer on a unit to max out battles led? Or do I replace them with a just good enough officer so I can put the better officer in div command or make another 1* at the cost of slowing down the progression of the original unit. 

Do I keep my 3* infantry unit that is slowly dwindling in size at a minimum combat effectiveness with high stats? Do I split it up into multiple other units? Do I reduce its stats to boost its size up? Do I merge it with another worn down unit? 

A lot of this is similar to what has always been present in terms of rotating officers around and adding vets. I just think the choices are a lot more interesting now and you can engage in more of the options without having to empty your recruit pool to get access to them.

[dixiePig]

So - even tho previous versions of the mod allowed 6 Brigades per Division when you got to some level of AO, 6-Brigade Divisions are no longer permitted in the game?

Which means that 2nd Bull Run (which demands 25 CSA Brigades in one Corps) requires that I be at AO Level 9 (in order to allow 5 Div / 5 Bde)?  Which means that I must invest ALL of my CAREER points after Malvern in AO.  The scale is already tipped towards an AO-heavy career path.  This makes it even worse.

Flaws

• You must select an advancement in AO in the first (redundant) step of CAREER setup (so, just give it to us)
• You quickly end up with an extra Corps that you can't even use until the 10th battle (Gaines Mill)
• Even so, it's very unnecessarily difficult to respond to upcoming battles without being totally focused on a poorly-designed AO progression

Practical Reality

If - especially in the early days of the War - you have only 750 Mississippi's and 750 Enfield's, then you will build two small Brigades of 750 men apiece, out of necessity, since you can't build a 1500 INF Brigade. Of course.  Would any General faced with an upcoming battle say, "Nope.  Can't build 2 smaller units  instead of 1 larger unit because - you know - company policy."

• A 6-unit Division allows you some reasonable flexibility without breaking the game.  Aaaaand ... More players will be able to get "all the way to CSA 2nd bull run with only ao 3 on MG."  It will be a more fun and challenging game, as a result.

Historical Precedent

• Historically - and practically - there was much inconsistency and variety among early combat units of the Civil War in terms of size, weaponry, and number
• Historically, CSA and USA armies were constructed slightly differently . Allowing the CSA to have 6-unit Divisions would reflect this historical reality of their larger size and would easily add some more variety to the gameplay.
• By all evidence, most Civil War era Divisions had 4-5 INF Brigades and they also had Artillery batteries attached to them.  That would be the 6th unit. A 6-unit Division (5 INF Brigades and 1 ARTY Brigade) is absolutely consistent with historical precedent.

I continue to press for the 6-unit Division structure because it solves existing problems, offers some much-needed variety and flexibility, is historically valid, improves the gameplay, and doesn't break the system.

Please reconsider.