Port manifests

[Bach]

With the new trading system there is a lot of confusion whom is taking trade goods from each other's capitals.  The Swedes name the French for stripping their trade goods. Dutch also blame the French.  As a French captain I know it's not me but I sure would like to identify whom or whose alt is doing this so we know who to go to war with.

i propose cargo manifests be added to the port UI.  It simply tracks all the trade transactions of the port for the last 24 hours.  This way we can see who is buying up and selling all the goods on a market. Should lead to some good player controlled sand box content.

[Archaos]

Please no, this would just be used as a tool to find out peoples trade routes.

[Bach]

2 minutes ago, Archaos said:

Please no, this would just be used as a tool to find out peoples trade routes.

That is a plus.  Pirates and privateers have just as much right to play the game.

[Archaos]

1 minute ago, Bach said:

That is a plus.  Pirates and privateers have just as much right to play the game.

Then let them hunt me in open world, not look through manifests to find where I trade. Most know the likely trade routes anyway but why let them know what cargo I am carrying, let them take pot luck and maybe be rewarded with a hold full of rotting fish.

[VirtuallyIdiotic]

10 minutes ago, Archaos said:

Then let them hunt me in open world, not look through manifests to find where I trade. Most know the likely trade routes anyway but why let them know what cargo I am carrying, let them take pot luck and maybe be rewarded with a hold full of rotting fish.

Agreed. It will do more damage than good. Only type of "manifest" I would like to see is one for a clan warehouse.

[Bach]

13 minutes ago, Archaos said:

Then let them hunt me in open world, not look through manifests to find where I trade. Most know the likely trade routes anyway but why let them know what cargo I am carrying, let them take pot luck and maybe be rewarded with a hold full of rotting fish.

There are few things in this game that are harder now than solo commerce raiding.  Even if they know what you are hauling you still control the time of day it moves and the route. If you do it at the exact same time and take a direct protractor route well you probably deserve it. But it becomes a battle of wits and a chess match between you and them. That's nothing to be afraid of.

The bigger issue is figuring out whom may be stripping the wealth of a small nations capital just because they can.  If nations knew who was doing it then they know whom to go to war with. They also can learn if a treaty they made is actually screwing them over.  The good far outweighs the bad and it's info any port captain would and should have at his fingertips.  

Governor to Port Captain - "Did you see which ship those x5 Textile mills left on?"

Port Captain to Zgovernor- "Yes sir, 'twas the Captain Dandy Doodle sailing under the Stars and Stripes"

 

Edited July 10, 2017 by Bach

[Bach]

9 minutes ago, Davos Seasworth said:

Agreed. It will do more damage than good. Only type of "manifest" I would like to see is one for a clan warehouse.

What brought this up was a Dutch captain on Global. It was a paragraph complaining about France flooding the Dutch market. This struck me odd as a few days earlier a Swede was complaining about the same thing.  So I'm trying to figure it out. No one in the war had the time to do it.  And there are only two clans of french I ever see regularly bulk hauling.

Now it would just strike me funny if this one French clan was just running around stripping everyone trade markets in the middle of this whole war thing.  But another possibility is that both Swedes and Dutch made the same alliance trade pact. You both might have just underestimated the impact CCCP can actually have in your markets. I know it shocked us a first. I honestly don't know what it is. But I would like in game tools to figure it out.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Bach

[Archaos]

1 minute ago, Bach said:

There are few things in this game that are harder now than solo commerce raiding.  Even if they know what you are hauling you still control the time of day it moves and the route. If you do it at the exact same time and take a direct protractor route well you probably deserve it. But it becomes a battle of wits and a chess match between you and them.

The bigger issue is figuring out whom may be stripping the wealth of a small nations capital just because they can.  If nations knew who was doing it then they know whom to go to war with. They also can learn if a treaty they made is actually screwing them over.  The good far outweighs the bad and it's info any port captain would and should have at his fingertips.  

Governor to Port Captain - "Did you see which ship those x5 Textile mills left on?"

Port Captain to Zgovernor- "Yes sir, 'twas the Captain Dandy Doodle sailing under the Stars and Stripes"

 

It is most probably being done by alts so knowing which nation their main is from will not solve the issue no matter who you declare war on.

The best way to stop trade good stripping is to not allow contracts to be set up for trade goods. You have to physically be in the port to buy the goods from NPC's. That way it also fits in with your little roleplay. You notice 5 textile mills that were on sale a few minutes ago are not there anymore, so go look which traders are leaving port.

[Archaos]

1 minute ago, Bach said:

What brought this up was a Dutch captain on Global. It was a paragraph complaining about France flooding the Dutch market. This struck me odd as a few days earlier a Swede was complaining about the same thing.  So I'm trying to figure it out. No one in the war had the time to do it.  And there are only two clans if Zfrench I ever see bulk hauling.

Now it would just strike me funny if this one French clan was just running around stripping everyone trade markets in the middle of this whole war thing.  But another possibility is that both Swedes and Dutch made the same alliance trade pact. You both might have just underestimated the impact CCCP can actually have in your markets. I know it shocked us a first. I honestly don't know what it is. But I would like in game tools to figure it out.

And remove all the intrigue about who is sabotaging your markets.

[OneEyedSnake]

53 minutes ago, Bach said:

That is a plus.  Pirates and privateers have just as much right to play the game.

hm yes. but in real life they didnt just get access to these. perhaps you could pay some gold or after you have traded enough goods in a port get access to it? you know. as a bribe or a trusted trader

 

[SeagullPokeYourCoconut]

I guess when one nation blames France its easy to jump on the band wagon

[Bach]

2 hours ago, Archaos said:

It is most probably being done by alts so knowing which nation their main is from will not solve the issue no matter who you declare war on.

The best way to stop trade good stripping is to not allow contracts to be set up for trade goods. You have to physically be in the port to buy the goods from NPC's. That way it also fits in with your little roleplay. You notice 5 textile mills that were on sale a few minutes ago are not there anymore, so go look which traders are leaving port.

I think you have a good idea here. The contracts for trade goods should be removed.

[Guest]

There is no rule against alt-trading. On the contrary I believe that trading was one of the very reasons for making alts in the first place - making some ressources rare and more or less forcing the RvR clans to invest in alts. That ppl soon identified it as an easy way to trade more safely is just a by product of an alt-market that should never have been allowed.. Alas not that the bunny is out of the box she will not easily be put back into it.

[Bach]

2 minutes ago, Bearwall said:

There is no rule against alt-trading. On the contrary I believe that trading was one of the very reasons for making alts in the first place - making some ressources rare and more or less forcing the RvR clans to invest in alts. That ppl soon identified it as an easy way to trade more safely is just a by product of an alt-market that should never have been allowed.. Alas not that the bunny is out of the box she will not easily be put back into it.

But what if we, you and I, had the in game tools to coral the bunny when it gets greedy and tries to eat all our lettuce?

Consider this:

Using the Port Manifest, whether you pay for it or have it as a perk for being the port Lord, you find a French captain that pulls into you port with multiple runs of multiple Indiamen and destroys your trade econ for Dutch players.  Now you happen to be allied to France so this guy is theoretically protected. But you now have proof of his transgression. You contact the French counsel and petition for a letter of marque. Since it is clear and isolated they granted and you are free to teach this guy a lesson. If you can catch him. It also helps avoid total all out war with France and creates an avenue for isolated policing conflicts.

It opens up player created content and helps you and I resolve issues in game without having to flood the forums complaining that the Devs need to do something about alts.   Now if the alt is smart he trims down how much market raiding he does to a level easier to hide. Dutch captains get more access to trade goods. It could be a win win win.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Bach said:

But what if we, you and I, had the in game tools to coral the bunny when it gets greedy and tries to eat all our lettuce?

Consider this:

Using the Port Manifest, whether you pay for it or have it as a perk for being the port Lord, you find a French captain that pulls into you port with multiple runs of multiple Indiamen and destroys your trade econ for Dutch players.  Now you happen to be allied to France so this guy is theoretically protected. But you now have proof of his transgression. You contact the French counsel and petition for a letter of marque. Since it is clear and isolated they granted and you are free to teach this guy a lesson. If you can catch him. It also helps avoid total all out war with France and creates an avenue for isolated policing conflicts.

It opens up player created content and helps you and I resolve issues in game without having to flood the forums complaining that the Devs need to do something about alts.   Now if the alt is smart he trims down how much market raiding he does to a level easier to hide. Dutch captains get more access to trade goods. It could be a win win win.

Problem with a port manifest is that it would be unrealistic and not very historical. In the 1700-1800 timeframe all ships were bound to have a cargomanifest, a portmanifest and various permits for trading specific ports/regions but only the harbormaster or his agents could demand to see them. For that reason I'm against the idea. From a gameplay perspective there's two reasons why I'm against the idea. One is that the whole letter of marque idea is a bit to the side of the issue and not very doable in the games current iteration.

The second is that what you are suggesting is that everyone would be able to see these manifests, discern traderoutes and in effect make alt-abuse a lot easier. For a long time I deplored anyone using alts but after the recent update where trading/crafting just got a lot more timeconsuming I went and got me an alt - if I had these information I'd make it a pirate alt and target both enemies and clans that just happen to be competing with me and my clanmates in the same neck of the woods. What you're suggesting wouldn't bring an end to monopolising trade goods or ports but would give the very persons that are using alts the means to enforce a monopoly with alts. Fact is that what you want can be achieved by putting up contracts for specific goods. If you can't match/overbid someone - well then it's because you don't want it enough.

[Bach]

1 hour ago, Bearwall said:

Fact is that what you want can be achieved by putting up contracts for specific goods. If you can't match/overbid someone - well then it's because you don't want it enough.

Actually not always.  A newish player in a small nation like Sweden or Spain has almost no prayer of ever outbidding a trading good raider.  Shooting or capturing the raider is about his only chance to compete.  This may not be the ultimate solution to alts but to get it to where players can deal with it themselves they need the information first.  In a solo world a raider might use the port manifests for stealing ships. That is actually a good thing. What do I care if its his alt or main that is now offering pvp. Now he is on the sea and able to offer someone pvp.   General Peace treaties are bad as trade good raiding needs some risk.  But for players to attempt to regulate trade in game they need the port info.  It still works for role play. The harbormaster has the information and he knows which series of Indiamen just emptied out the Malabar Teak Warehouse.  That info is available to the governor and perhaps to every naval captain enforcing the will of the crown.  Its not unreasonable that player navy captains could obtain it in some way.   Perhaps viewing the 24hour list should cost a combat mark or something?   Players need a way to regulate trade goods now that they are a more important aspect of the game.

[Skully]

Open the market. Let anyone put up contracts for anything.

You can then see who is buying/selling what and potentially outbid them.

[Archaos]

1 minute ago, Skully said:

Open the market. Let anyone put up contracts for anything.

You can then see who is buying/selling what and potentially outbid them.

Sorry I think this just allows the richer players or big clans control the market. Trade good should only be sold direct to players and not through contracts. Contracts should only be allowed for manufactured goods used for shipbuilding. At the moment it is harder for newer and more casual players to get their foot onto the trading ladder to make money as many of the more profitable trade goods are instantly bought up with buy contracts by rich people and clans that can afford to buy them up and stockpile them till they can achieve a good price in the sell port.

Just use the third party trade tools or even in game trade tool to look at the best prices on some of the trade goods and where they are available, then go to those ports even within 20 minutes of maintenance and I can almost guarantee that there is no more in stock for sale as they have already been bought up. The whole idea of changing some gameplay in the economy was to get more traders out into the open world, but at the moment it is very difficult for the small independent trader to make any profit.

I personally have tried running an alt purely as a trader trying to chase round filling delivery orders just to see how viable it is to level up a characters xp and crafting by doing delivery orders as well as make a bit of income, and it is a very slow process. Usually the delivery orders have to be delivered to a port 1.5 to 2 hours sail away, yet for the same goods you could almost make as much profit just selling the trade good at a nearby free port, but usually the price there has already been reduced to 1. I have very seldom been able to get to the port where an item is indicated as being sold cheaply and still get it to fill a delivery order even when I log on just as the servers come back online. I usually have to fill the delivery order in several ports buying the goods at higher prices, thus dropping my profit margins.

The down side of letting the big clans control the market is that they can defend their traders and sail in convoys which in turn reduces the targets for raiders. The game should encourage more small traders to get out in open world.

Sorry it is a rant a bit off topic, but I just do not want to see any other deterrents to small traders in the game.

[Guest]

What I'm hearing is a lot of crying about some players being richer than others - man up and thighten the belt buckle because that will never change in any simulation of econ..

[Skully]

The big clans already own the market.

Take the iron market as an example. Alts are ready to sell the moment the price comes back up in a Freeport. And as you say, they are being supplied by the triple Indiamens. 

Delivery orders are meaningless. Small change for goods unobtainable.

As long as you do not have the tools to be a participant in the market (aka contracts). You can be outplayed very easily as a small trader.