Chancellorsville Union - Too easy on Normal?

[Wandering1]

Played through Chancellorsville with my max size army a few days ago on normal.

The first day seems pretty tame; I was able to annihilate all the skirmishers and a few full infantry divisions on the first day, before the reinforcements arrived and effectively shut me out due to all of my cavalry squads being at 0 condition. Brings one to wonder, since the enemy reinforcement divisions spawn in the open, whether anyone has decided to rush the forests on the CSA right since there are only two brigades guarding the right (Wilcox and Perry?), initially.

While I didn't remember all of the details of the battle historically and was caught out of position by Jackson's flank, once I stabilized the right flank, the battle seemed rather tame. Lee's division didn't really pressure my front very much that required me to do any repositioning.

Since I had a lot more time on my hands, I had an easy time finding isolated squads to gang up on with 6 melee cavalry squads. By the third day, I was able to hit the run button and hit the remainder of Jackson's forces by running out into the light forests. Turns out the enemy artillery squads are programmed to keep rolling forward, even if there were already infantry squads shooting at them. 

I intentionally left Jackson's forces on slow burn, while I was able to entirely mop up Lee's army on the front. When the last phase transitioned, I only saw two melee cavalry on the left with one artillery brigade left on the map. 

As far as feedback goes, should there be a little bit more aggression on the first day? It seems like the indications were to protect the camp from falling, but Lee's army never marched on me in full force on the first day. They just sat in their fortifications on the other side of the river.

[A. P. Hill]

See, and this is the difference between the real battle and the ones everyone plays.

When Hooker crossed the river and found himself at Chancellorsville, he made the tactical mistake of sending ALL of his cavalry, further to the west and down toward Richmond way, and pretty much left himself blind in the woods.  The only cavalry he had was a couple companies as headquarters guard and not enough to do as you played.

And as far as your details about Lee not attacking, that's pretty much true to history.  Sure he made a few feints to help alleviate the pressure on Jackson, but for the most part, the whole of Jackson's Corps was massed on the right of Hooker's position and basically rolled him up. Lee applied enough pressure on his front to keep Hooker from being able to send his right any units from his front or left.

As was true to history, the initial shock of Jackson's Corps busting out of the woods in the late afternoon, (around 3 or 4 p.m. if I recall correctly,) was eventually stymied by the Union troops coming together behind some luckily placed log barricades by Union Divisions.

Of course what the game doesn't project realistically, is the panic and uncertainty of Hooker once he realized he was out maneuvered and flanked with nothing to really stop Jackson's onslaught.  His panic caused a serious flaw in logical thinking and he couldn't direct units and they were pretty much left to their own to try to make their best defense(s). While some stuck it out and fought, (after regaining their composure,) others just cut and run, never to be seen until the retreat of the Army of the Potomac back towards Washington's defenses.

The point being, until the Dev's can model in actual commander reactions and responses from real events into the game, the Union Army of the Potomac will always be superior enough to trounce the Confederates in any battle and really shouldn't be a surprise that they can.  Players of this game, are not at fear of losing their lives, being captured and spending god only knows how long in a horrid Southern prisoner of war camp ... and with the commanding overview of the battlefield, can direct units as they're needed and where they're needed, whereas Hooker, (and all other commanders both North and South,) did not have that advantage and could not react to situations as quickly as we the player(s) can.

I consistently play Southern army, and it's a really great feeling when I can, with my limited resources, send the yankees skedaddling off the map.

 

(As a side note, and as someone already mentioned, Longstreet was in Tennessee with a good 2/3rds of his First Corps during this fight.  So Lee took command of the remaining 1/3 of the Longstreet's corps, and of course Jackson was short Ewell's division, they were holding the rear at Fredericksburg.)

Edited January 17, 2017 by A. P. Hill

[Mr. Mercanto]

Do you have to capture the Orange Plank Road and the Turnpike, or can you just defend? I found the defence easy but I took a drubbing trying to organise a counter attack on the 2nd day

[Wandering1]

Well, as far as Lee not practically speaking putting much pressure on the main line, it begs the question of if there is any point detailing the rest of the map, other than Jackson's push. From a computer performance standpoint, my machine was already starting to slow down from Jackson's squads hitting me, and me simultaneously moving the main line forward to hit Lee's forces. My machine is a i7-6700k, with a 980 GTX. I'd not want to think about how much the game would slow down on an older machine.

[Wandering1]

Just now, Mr. Mercanto said:

Do you have to capture the Orange Plank Road and the Turnpike, or can you just defend? I found the defence easy but I took a drubbing trying to organise a counter attack on the 2nd day

You don't have to capture until the third day, as Union.

[Mr. Mercanto]

Damn! I thought I had to capture it then. 

Realistically, Hooker never intended to attack in the battle so I shouldn't have to take it all...but I know changes are made for gameplay reasons.

[Wandering1]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Mercanto said:

Damn! I thought I had to capture it then. 

Realistically, Hooker never intended to attack in the battle so I shouldn't have to take it all...but I know changes are made for gameplay reasons.

The funny thing is, as the map is programmed right now, the brigades that form the CSA defense on the right? Those get used as part of the squads attacking you on the first phase of the third day. Meaning if you wipe all the squads in the first phase of the third day, basically there's nobody left to stop you from capturing the two points.

Edited January 17, 2017 by Wandering1

[GeneralPITA]

1 hour ago, Wandering1 said:

The funny thing is, as the map is programmed right now, the brigades that form the CSA defense on the right? Those get used as part of the squads attacking you on the first phase of the third day. Meaning if you wipe all the squads in the first phase of the third day, basically there's nobody left to stop you from capturing the two points.

I wiped the rebs on day two and was met with 36k fresh troops on day three. Annoying. Maybe it got fixed, happened to me just before the patch released.

[Wandering1]

26 minutes ago, GeneralPITA said:

I wiped the rebs on day two and was met with 36k fresh troops on day three. Annoying. Maybe it got fixed, happened to me just before the patch released.

Well, one thing that I'm certain does keep refreshing are artillery squads. Or at least there are so many of them that I couldn't possibly kill them all by the third day.

[Mr. Mercanto]

I guess I'm a mediocre tactician :P. Held until the 3rd, then counterattacked what little was left.

[Hitorishizuka]

15 hours ago, GeneralPITA said:

I wiped the rebs on day two and was met with 36k fresh troops on day three. Annoying. Maybe it got fixed, happened to me just before the patch released.

Someone was reporting that a few days ago on Shiloh also. They had retreated all the way back to Pittsburgh as Union and bled the CSA down, but on Day 2 they had their entire force replenished.

[RobWheat61]

21 hours ago, A. P. Hill said:

See, and this is the difference between the real battle and the ones everyone plays.

When Hooker crossed the river and found himself at Chancellorsville, he made the tactical mistake of sending ALL of his cavalry, further to the west and down toward Richmond way, and pretty much left himself blind in the woods.  The only cavalry he had was a couple companies as headquarters guard and not enough to do as you played.

Add to this, that Hooker's Cavalry, if it would have been there, wouldn't have in brigade or division strength and Saber in hand charged confederate Infantry all over the heavily wooded area, because it would have been suicide.

[Mr. Mercanto]

I feel like arguing that sending Stoneman's cavalry to attack Lee's lines of communications did not constitute a mistake on a theoretical level...

But that's probably a bit tangential  

[Ultra_Tovarisch]

Yeah, I was kinda shocked with the results. Shocked in a good way, but still it wasn't really satisfying due to how easy it was. Jackson's attack was a suicide. He was too scared to launch a melee charge, apparently because of my cavalry standing nearby, so he decided to put his forces in front of my infantry which had 100% cover by the forest... And he had a stack of three star melee cavalry brigades that could've wiped out my forces, but after a single failed charge that ended up in 350 captured cavalrymen, he gave up on them, so his cavalry stood on the edge of the map for the entire battle.

On the last day, the AI had almost no forces to defend, so I just steam rolled them with cavalry.

 

Edited March 13, 2017 by Ultra_Tovarisch

[A. P. Hill]

On ‎1‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 10:34 PM, Mr. Mercanto said:

I guess I'm a mediocre tactician :P. Held until the 3rd, then counterattacked what little was left.

Don't feel bad.  Even given all my historical background and study, I can't get past Antietam on any Confederate Campaign, and I barely ever make it past Philippi on the union side.

[Mr. Mercanto]

1 hour ago, A. P. Hill said:

Don't feel bad.  Even given all my historical background and study, I can't get past Antietam on any Confederate Campaign, and I barely ever make it past Philippi on the union side.

 Glad to know I'm not alone. I can whip the Rebels on Colonel, but on Brigadier its a real struggle after Shiloh

[Wandering1]

Despite knowing how the battles play out, the game mechanics differ greatly from history that you cannot replicate the same tactics.

Namely the supporting brigades shooting into a melee, using canister on your own troops, and using supply carts as bait (this is the American Civil War, and not the Three Kingdoms period of using wooden oxen as trojan horses ).

[DeRuyter]

On ‎3‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 6:06 PM, A. P. Hill said:

Don't feel bad.  Even given all my historical background and study, I can't get past Antietam on any Confederate Campaign, and I barely ever make it past Philippi on the union side.

I find that too much knowledge of history can often be a detriment in a computer game . In particular games where the player builds the army and drives the force composition or most MMO for that matter. Unless you go straight historical oob, hardcore sim like the SoW series where couriers and limited pov take care of the 300ft general. I am still trying to work out the whole min-max thing.