LH/hr increase per Craft level increase ...

[Baron Von WeisenCracker]

ok, I posted this response in another thread under the crafting and trade forum .. but I figure it probably has a better place here.. and whether or not to get some feedback.. so here goes...

 

Currently a new player accumulates Labor hours at the same rate as a person maxed out at level 50 (42 labor hours/hr). The only differences are the total number of hours the higher crafter can have at one time, and the items they can craft (higher BP's etc...) -- Otherwise, there is not a single difference. They make exactly the same amount of Labor hours. Why? Other than a Grand total, there no other incentive to skill up as a crafter? I humbly suggest a reward of sorts... some incentive to skill up beyond just to build bigger better items. What's the use in crafting if you have to endure the same build up as a new player? My suggestion is really simple. There are 3 options really... all are incremental. Can either be done every 5th crafting level achieved or every 10th. Easy right? here is the break down:           

                               Option 3                     In 24 hours

                               increase of                  Max # of LH

Craft level         5 LH /hr/10th level           LH/24hr Op3

0                                                                      1008

5                                                                      1008

10                                47                                1128

15                                                                    1128

20                                52                                1248

25                                                                    1248

30                                57                                1368

35                                                                    1368

40                                62                                1488

45                                                                    1488

50                                67                                1608

 

OP 3 still would NOT exceed the Labor hours grand total for Level 50 players in a 24 hour period. BUT would reward players for excelling as crafters.

 

Anh, just something to ponder. Its just an idea to differentiate between the new comers and the ones who are ascending up the levels- besides just higher stockpiles.

 

(EDIT note: Just to simply this I am removing Options 1 & 2 from the above layout, so that Option 3 can be seen more clearly.)

Edited June 9, 2016 by yankyaeger

[Galileus]

Sigh. There we go again.

 

Since any balancing in a system is done top-down (according to max level, comp scene etc), adding more LH to high level player will have no effect on their ability to craft - i.e. the balancing will be adjusted to account for the fact. This means the change would be felt by the lower levels, as they would suddenly be able to craft less and - even though it can be adjusted too - level up slower.

 

In effect, your idea leads to slowing down of low level crafting, while does not affect the high level one. And I don't think there is any reason to slow down crafting any more.

[Baron Von WeisenCracker]

Since any balancing in a system is done top-down (according to max level, comp scene etc), adding more LH to high level player will have no effect on their ability to craft - i.e. the balancing will be adjusted to account for the fact. This means the change would be felt by the lower levels, as they would suddenly be able to craft less and - even though it can be adjusted too - level up slower.

 

In effect, your idea leads to slowing down of low level crafting, while does not affect the high level one. And I don't think there is any reason to slow down crafting any more.

How? How will it slow down "lower" level crafters? Please Define "lower level crafters".

 

How will the ability to gain LH's a slight bit faster in incremental portions, to allow the faster accumulation of those said Labor hours, for use, more frequently, be making it slower for lower level crafters? Or slower than the current pace that it is at already? Or making them "Suddenly to be able to craft less". Hunh?  Completely lost me on that one.

 

Also, if I had more hours available to me, on a daily basis (with less of a wait time) -- how exactly is that not affecting the Higher level crafter? As such, a higher crafter,  could now craft a 1st rate every day and a 1/2, rather than wait 2 full days for labor hour accumulation to just hit the craft button. A difference of 4-6 1st rates per week vs 2-3.

So what exactly are you defining as "ability to craft",  too? Biggest criteria to me is the availability of the labor hours. If ya don't got em -- you really cant do anything.

 

So, as for your points, I don't see your rationale - at all. Really ...WADR,  I don't.

 

ok, so as I proposed ...  If I am getting 1008 LH every 24 hours, for levels 9 and under -- I can use up to 1008 hours (No change). If however,  after level 10 (with option 3, which I now like best), I now can accrue 1128 hours in a 24 hour period -- I might be able to craft a few more items, that I would have previously had to wait that additional 3 hours to accumulate (ITs not lightning fast: 5 lH's X 24 hrs = 120 LH's/42 LH's _{current hourly rate} = 2.85 hrs saved)... my idea was to increase the accumulation threshold up slightly so that there were more hours available in a 24 hour period. Again, this was originally thought of as an incentive to XP up, as a crafter. As well as a reward for those that do.

 

So how is that "slowing a lower level crafter down"? They would have more hours after level 10, available in a shorter period of time. IF you are referring to the folks who are under level 9, what would be different than the current system set up? They would still be accruing LH's at a 42 LH/hr rate. - no change there.

 

So I guess what you are saying is that the current system is designed to keep the lower level crafters at a snail pace longer. Right? Thus that validates your responses/points. Otherwise any increase will likely "break" the current set up. OR am I missing something else?

 

Sincerely interested in your response.

Edited June 9, 2016 by yankyaeger

[Bommel]

How? How will it slow down "lower" level crafters? Please Define "lower level crafters".

 

How will the ability to gain LH's a slight bit faster in incremental portions, to allow the faster accumulation of those said Labor hours, for use, more frequently, be making it slower for lower level crafters? Or slower than the current pace that it is at already? Or making them "Suddenly to be able to craft less". Hunh?  Completely lost me on that one.

 

 

Sincerely interested in your response.

Same here.

 

PS: I like that idea.

[Galileus]

Sincerely interested in your response.

 

Because balancing. I wrote that already. You balance top down.

 

Introduce a change that increases amount of LH for high level crafters = increase LH prices of everything to balance it out = high level crafters remain balanced = low level crafters remain with the same amount of LH as today, but the prices have risen = low level crafters can craft less.

 

It's like real world. You say - "Hey, let's start printing all the money with 2x the value on them!" and then are surprised that prices went up. Your reasoning is - if the country prints 2x the money, everyone can buy 2x the stuff. But it does not include the devaluation of money - 2x the money gives you the same value, as devaluation meant it is going to be balanced out by the market's prices. The same with increasing the LH gain - but here, you make the obvious mistake of increasing it non-linearly. which means it will hit different level crafters differently.

 

So - you print 2x the money, high level crafters get 2x the money, prices get 2x as high. Everything is in equilibrium - except for low level crafters who starve, because prices went up, and they got no money.

 

Of course I assume your idea is NOT meant as a brilliant plan to secretly trick the devs to just flat out give you more LH, is it? I mean, bad idea it can be (for reasons mentioned - slowing down low level crafting), but at least I hope this is not just saying "I wanna moar LH!" under a false pretense of game improvement idea. Because you won't get more LH, you know, right?

[Baron Von WeisenCracker]

Because balancing. I wrote that already. You balance top down.

 

So - you print 2x the money, high level crafters get 2x the money, prices get 2x as high. Everything is in equilibrium - except for low level crafters who starve, because prices went up, and they got no money.

 

Of course I assume your idea is NOT meant as a brilliant plan to secretly trick the devs to just flat out give you more LH, is it? I mean, bad idea it can be (for reasons mentioned - slowing down low level crafting), but at least I hope this is not just saying "I wanna moar LH!" under a false pretense of game improvement idea. Because you won't get more LH, you know, right?

ok, edited out the portions that are a bit less relevant.. but ok.

 

Well, some of us are not in the game to "make" unusable money. I figure my idea was to help folks to be able to craft their wares more rapidly. I am trying hard not to see this as a difference of cultures. (Yours Poland, mine USA). But I have come across the other end of the supply and demand issue as well. You see when you have too much of one thing.. it devalues it to the point where you have to reduce your prices. That's called supply and demand. Now surely when a product is high in demand, the prices will go up... yeah.. that's basic economics and profiteering. But when the same criteria is spread across the board (large population) then the commodities become more abundant, then it becomes "he who can sell his item first".. makes the more money. Not he who can sell his item for the MOST! And THAT is typically when prices start to drop. 1st rates take up port slots ... enough of those and you cant park your own ride in port... then what will the crafter do with his over priced excessive ships?

 

That said - sure the Level 50 crafters would have a larger pool of funds to utilize -- but there is not just 1 of them! Yall put a lot of invisible VALUE on labor hours. I see them more like "power on or off". If I have them, "powers up", and I can make something. If I don't, then "powers off" and I wont. I do not attest to placing arbitrary imaginary values (gold) to labor hours. You either have them, or you do not. The game (program) doesn't care if you are selling a Basic ship or an exceptional ship to it, it will still give you a "relatively low-ball" value for your ship, versus the jacked up prices in a lot of ports.

 

I see that we look  at labor hours as 2 entirely different elements of the game. I look at them as a means to actually make something. You are looking at it purely from the stand point of monetary values. So how do you meld the 2? Keep in mind .. players are leaving the game constantly .. some due to game mechanics, some to attitudes, some to incompatibilities, but also some due to the exorbitant prices that are placed on imaginary items.

 

And no Galileus,... my idea is just what it is.. no deception ... no illusion ... not underhanded or manipulative .. just purely a means of rewarding those who stick with trying to excel in the game and as a means to entice others (lower levels) to get involved. Otherwise .. there really is no difference between level 0 and level 50, other than after 2 days (48 hours), the level 0 player will have been maxed out for almost 40 hours (real time) and the level 50, will finally fill his Labor hour bank up full.

 

I am perfectly fine with the established levels of Labor hours at each level. It is the duration in time, it takes to get to the full extent of those hours. So , no.. not a ploy to get MORE or even MOAR, labor hours. I am at level 37 now.. IIRC that's around1780, if left to accumulate. At the present rate of accumulation it would take me 42.38 real time hours to attain them all. If that idea took hold I could instead have my entire allotment for my level in *31.22 hours -- saving me over 10 hours of real world time. (* calculated at 57 LH per hour) The game is already time consuming enough, I would welcome almost anything (or at least ponder it) that would make it any bit faster to play.

 

Cheers,

-Yank

[Galileus]

I see that we look  at labor hours as 2 entirely different elements of the game. I look at them as a means to actually make something. You are looking at it purely from the stand point of monetary values.

 

Sigh.

 

I used that metaphor to make it easier to understand why non-linear increase in LH amount will cause a non-linear devaluation of said LH... NOT to say that LH = money in real world.

 

I am staggered how you could even take it that way. Do you honestly, really believe I meant LH are equivalent of real world money? I specifically pointed that out. I have also never, ever mentioned anything that could mean my comment is about in-game money.

 

And then you go out to say...

 

 

 

And no Galileus,... my idea is (...) a means to entice others (lower levels) to get involved

 

... even after I specifically pointed out that this is a bad idea because it punishes lower levels.

 

Back to the drawing board. Read again. This time, please, take your time to actually understand instead of projecting who you think I am onto my post and pretending this is what was indeed written.

 

I even pointed out exactly where your mistake is in your assumptions, and yet you went and repeated them again. Do you even read what I write, or do you just assume I wrote something about rebellion because I'm Polish, huh? ;_;

[Æthlstan]

... even after I specifically pointed out that this is a bad idea because it punishes lower levels.

It does nothing of the sort....punishes? Utterly ridiculous.

It rewards those who use the system, and encourages new crafters to keep crafting, by giving them something else besides blueprint requirements to chase after. Especially if theyre just a supporting crafter, instead of a ship crafter.

More detailed explaination to follow

Edited June 9, 2016 by Æthlstan

[Æthlstan]

I understood it as you saying that labor hours=gold

 

Recessive Labor Hour System= Those who have higher labor hour capacity regenerate more labor hours per day, those who have less labor hour capacity regenerate less labor hours per day

 

Progressive Labor Hour System= Those who have higher labor hour capacity regenerate less hours per day, while those who have less labor hour capacity regenerate more hours per day (stupid, imho)

 

Flat Labor Hour System= Everyone regenerates a set percentage of their total labor hours each day.

 

As some may have guessed, I'm making a parallel to tax systems, since we are saying labor hours are in game currency

(quick crash course for the uninformed) Recessive tax systems incentivize the population to make more money, by reducing the percentage you are taxed as your annual income increases, while progressive tax systems encourage people to make as much money as they can without leaving their current tax bracket, since barely making enough money to get into the next tax bracket acts like a pay cut (Making 19,999/year with 10% taxes vs making 20,000/yr with 20% taxes.) Flat tax systems mean that everyone pays the same percentage in taxes regardless of income level. (end of tax system crash course)

 

 

Lets try to put the game mechanics in more of a real world perspective, instead of a discussion of currency and taxes

 

Since labor hours are actually man hours, and man hours are the amount of hours a given amount of people spend working per unit time, we can figure out how many men work in a lvl 1 crafters shop using the following equation and given variables:

 

Total man hours generated each day=1008. Work day(hours per man)=12 hours (pre labor movement) 

 

Total workers= (total man hours generated daily)/(hours per man)=1008/12= 84 workers.

 

84 workers in a level 1 crafter's workshop. Ok, that's a reasonable number.  Level 1 guys have to build small boats and things over time. Make all the required components for a Pickle over time. Assemble said components. Bam. Pickle.

 

With the current system, a level 50 crafter uses 84 workers to build a Victory, or a santisima. Wait, what?

 

A highly valued artisan can only employ 84 people, and its acceptable to only have 84 people working on a ship the size of the Victory? That would take FOREVER in real life! Just like it takes FOREVER in game. In game, entire crafting clans can only output 1 or 2 santisimas or victories a week. A single port battle can result in the loss of 5, 10, or if people really screw up, 25 of these expensive ships sinking. 

 

 

I don't think people should be able to craft Santisimas by themselves every day, but I do think that your higher levels should count for something more than just a requirement to use blueprints. I am also not suggesting we add the 100s and 1000s of laborers needed to make some of these large ships to the labor hour pool. Just that we recognize that higher level ships take more people to build, and higher level crafters should therefore have more workers at their disposal per day, thus, more labor hour regeneration.

 

Providing higher labor hour regeneration as your level increases DOES NOT punish the lower level players. That's backwards thinking. Rather, it gives lower level players a reason to level up their crafting, even if they don't want to build ships. More hours every day=more possible income every day. Bam. Motivation. More people see the craft system as a potential source of income, more people use the craft system, the materials marketplace actually gets some competition going (no more 15k per large carriage), since more people are crafting, there is increased demand for all sorts of resources, which means people can make money selling resources, which encourages people to make buildings and sell to the market....all adding up to produce a much more vibrant economy. All because of one simple change.

Edited June 10, 2016 by Æthlstan

[Galileus]

It does nothing of the sort....punishes? Utterly ridiculous.

 

Then please, debunk what I wrote before. Be my guest. Go for it.

 

"Na-ah!" does not work as an argument.

[Æthlstan]

I did.

If you want me to counter your ridiculous inflation argument, thats easy. Labor hours are currently a very sought after commodity. Making them more available would actually deflate the price of hours. This wouldnt hurt the small guy much, because when I was a small guy on PvP2 I crafted my way up with no one paying for hours (oh the horror)

Deflation of the prices does nothing to harm a new player. If anything it HELPS new players. On PvP2 no one charged for labor hours. Everyone thought the whole idea of it was stupid (and it is), and people who didnt use their hours gave them away to help the crafters make more ships. Lower prices for crafted items make ships less expensive. Less expensive ships help all new players, not just new crafters. Theres still room for profit with a lower profit margin, considering the average profit margin today is 300%

Our prices were just high enough for traders and crafters to make 20% profit. It worked. I still made money trading and crafting as a new crafter/trader...it wasnt a problem.

As for new guys struggling in the trade department, if they rely solely on crafted resources, reduced hours isnt going to affect them. Harvesting all 5 buildings doesnt take 1000 hours from me. You harvest every 3 days. So you can split it up and always ensure you have enough hours to harvest.

Now, say a guy wants to get into crafting at the same time he is doing resources. That puts a strain on his available hours, but he is motivated to level by the increased regen every level. This encourages more crafters of smaller components, something this game needs. The Materials market might actually start being competitive like the Resource market. *gasp* the economy might become more realistic!

Lower level players may not be able to craft as much, but they are rewarded for crafting and encouraged to level to get more regen per hour.

Now, there isnt that much motivation to craft. It is difficult get people into crafting to higher levels because they dont see the point.

With the proposed change, if a player wants to help craft midgrade notes they actually have a reward for grinding 14 levels up.

Edited June 11, 2016 by Æthlstan

[Galileus]

I never mentioned in-game prices. Try again. You managed to completely misread my whole argumentation yet again.

 

I would think it was my fault explaining it, if not for the fact you used a comparison I made and pretend this was my argument in the first place. A mistake that I already pointed out for the other guy. In bold. BOLD!

 

Seriously, this is getting stupid now. I'm reading your posts, even though it's pointless - as you seem to completely ignore mine and guesstimate what I wrote. If you want to take part in the discussion, reading other side's arguments is part of it you cannot skip. And if you have problems understanding, ask, don't guess. They say ignorance is bliss, but in a discussion arguments from ignorance won't take you far.

[Baron Von WeisenCracker]

Sigh.

 

I used that metaphor to make it easier to understand why non-linear increase in LH amount will cause a non-linear devaluation of said LH... NOT to say that LH = money in real world.

 

I am staggered how you could even take it that way. Do you honestly, really believe I meant LH are equivalent of real world money? I specifically pointed that out. I have also never, ever mentioned anything that could mean my comment is about in-game money.

 

And then you go out to say...

 

 

... even after I specifically pointed out that this is a bad idea because it punishes lower levels.

 

Back to the drawing board. Read again. This time, please, take your time to actually understand instead of projecting who you think I am onto my post and pretending this is what was indeed written.

 

I even pointed out exactly where your mistake is in your assumptions, and yet you went and repeated them again. Do you even read what I write, or do you just assume I wrote something about rebellion because I'm Polish, huh? ;_;

um Gal --

 

You are the one who makes the first argument of raising prices. Well dear colleague -- raising prices equates to Monetary value. and NO - I never ---- ever --- used the analogy of REAL WORLD money. I don't even equate REAL WORLD money as a practice in this game. I thought you meant the price of LH's would increase exponentially in GOLD (currency IN game) .. never REAL WORLD currency.

 

So lets try again -- shall we?

 

The proposed does NOT punish anyone. If it seems like it to you -- it is because you seem to have a serious issue in looking at things. This doesn't even come remotely close to punishing anyone. In fact, it makes someone want to craft something to get further up the chain faster. I would be crafting several (computer purchased) Cutters, if I had more hours to utilize. At present (as stated above) the only motivation there is to crafting is to be able to craft the higher requirement items (BP's, grade notes..better upgrades..etc...)

 

ok, so before you reply ... first .. don't reply with the typical "here we go again----junk". You offer no reason for your argument, other than the disparity between higher crafters and lower ones (Ie punishing lower crafters, raising prices..etc...). That's it.. well to tell you the truth Gal... there should be a difference between the high and low crafters. Its called experience! And with that should come a bit of reward. Even if it is just in the sense of getting a faster accumulation of hours per 24 hour period. In regards to the "proposed" .. even at the max level (Level 50) .. you are still not exceeding 2x the original amount. Instead are just making 25 LH's more/hr than the lowest crafting levels. Which is approx. 600 LH's more day (24 hours).

 

So let me know please, .. how is this really punishing the lower crafters? Currently, the system is punishing everyone. In one way or another.

[Baron Von WeisenCracker]

Because balancing. I wrote that already. You balance top down.

 

Introduce a change that increases amount of LH for high level crafters = increase LH prices of everything to balance it out = high level crafters remain balanced = low level crafters remain with the same amount of LH as today, but the prices have risen = low level crafters can craft less.

 

It's like real world. You say - "Hey, let's start printing all the money with 2x the value on them!" and then are surprised that prices went up. Your reasoning is - if the country prints 2x the money, everyone can buy 2x the stuff. But it does not include the devaluation of money - 2x the money gives you the same value, as devaluation meant it is going to be balanced out by the market's prices. The same with increasing the LH gain - but here, you make the obvious mistake of increasing it non-linearly. which means it will hit different level crafters differently.

 

So - you print 2x the money, high level crafters get 2x the money, prices get 2x as high. Everything is in equilibrium - except for low level crafters who starve, because prices went up, and they got no money.

 

Of course I assume your idea is NOT meant as a brilliant plan to secretly trick the devs to just flat out give you more LH, is it? I mean, bad idea it can be (for reasons mentioned - slowing down low level crafting), but at least I hope this is not just saying "I wanna moar LH!" under a false pretense of game improvement idea. Because you won't get more LH, you know, right?

And BTW --- that post right there.. mentions the rise in cost (and its relation to REAL WORLD MONEY). Which I prefer not to compare this game's economy to. I will not use my Real world money to purchase any item in this game. Just as long as you understand that.. and everything I suggest should never be equated to that type of transaction .. the better and easier you will find it to understand my point of contention. In game prices (GOLD)  are market derived. If folks are NOT willing to pay the exorbitant prices some crafters attest to their wares.. then the prices will eventually drop. And as stated earlier, if the lower guys are pumping out items faster (that are needed) they will ascend up their levels quicker, with an incentive to be able accumulate their hours faster after reaching certain levels. 

 

anyhoot, for the sake of argument ... your turn!

[Galileus]

Learn to read.

 

I'm done. It's pointless to try and give you arguments, when in turn you "debunk" them with "it won't because it won't!".

 

All this time you failed to answer to the first argument of my first post. In meantime, you created a super-idiotic strawman of monetary value - and now you even talk about "buying things in game with real world money". Your whole proces of argumentation relies on juxtaposition of words used by your opposition until you can debunk an iteration - nevermind it was never used in the argumentation.

 

It's pointless. You keep arguing with things you imagined, while I cannot straighten them up faster than you create them. Mostly, because you blatantly ignore these and continue on your merry way imagining what I could've said.

 

It's not my turn. My very first post still lacks an answer. My argument still stands. You failed to address it, and I will waste no more time with someone not capable of acknowledging it. Even less with a scoundrel who would rather try to blatantly lie and misrepresent his opponent arguments in vain hope of hiding his inability to debunk a fact.

 

The end.

[Cmdr RideZ]

I think crafting hours are good as those are.

 

I often would like to have more hours, but I understand the reason.

 

...Well, maybe, the lower level you have, more hours you have as well

Indeed, the opposite could work, just to help new players to be able to make more money, and level crafting faster.

But I do not think that this would be definitely needed either.

Edited June 14, 2016 by Cmdr RideZ

[Æthlstan]

I really dont think you understood what you yourself actually were writing galileus. You used a broken economic theory to say that low level crafters would be punished. We said no, they wont. And went on to explain how money doesnt matter when leveling your crafting, how I leveled my crafting without selling anything, how adding more hours at each level would incentivize low level crafters, etc

While YOU fail to clearly state how providing a labor hour incentive to crafters actually punishes lower level crafters besides automatically assuming that the crafting price of labor hours would for some stupid reason have to increase as well. Why? Balancing? No. Not balancing. Raising the cost of labor hours defeats the entire purpose of providing a labor hour increase per level. Mind as well not even raise the amount of labor hours.

Whether it be a stepped increase system or a linear increase in labor hour regeneration, the labor hour cost per item should definitely not increase.

The goal of the economy in this game is to be player driven and realistic. We cant exactly have those two things if the game is constantly balancing things. "Player-driven" and "game-balanced" dont exactly mesh. Especially when it comes to economy and production. The soviets learned that the hard way, if you replace the terms appropriately.

No offense, but the logic of your argument is so ridiculous we thought you were trying to say something completely different, because at least that argument could make a little sense. And im not even sure I grasp what you were actually trying to say, even now.

[Æthlstan]

To put this clearly

 

THE CURRENT LABOR HOUR COST FOR ALL MATERIALS AND SHIPS REMAINS THE SAME

 

LABOR HOUR REGENERATION INCREASES AS YOU LEVEL

 

no balancing. It doesnt require balancing.

 

in fact, increasing regen as craft level goes up IS balancing. Our point is that labour hours do not regenerate fast enough for high level crafters, who should logically have more workers, therefore more available labour hours per day. 

 

Increasing regen as you level while also increasing the amount of labor hours materials cost defeats the entire purpose of increasing labor hour regen.

 

 

i am in favor of a linear regen increase for each level.