Flinch/Pani

[Guest]

@Ink

 

Please investigate the behaviour of one Flinch (Pirate player, NSANE clan) and one Pani (Spanish player).

Flinch sunk a spanish player at La Tortue at 2:34 (CET) and later Pani killed a pirate player at 2:40 (CET). Prob just a battle with more players, but I'd like you to check it out anyway.

 

https://imgur.com/a/7fvPhow

[Roronoa]

I was hunting around with Flinch and NSANE guys earlier today around LT, im almost sure it was just a normal fight.

[Pani]

[Anolytic]

This shouldn't be in tribunal. Even without knowing the players, these kills are not suspicious from the screenshot. Even if they were farming each other at the docks of La Tortue, which to begin with is not the most likely spot, I'm pretty sure it would have to be at least 3 min between the kills for it to be even possible.

I get that we want to have every suspicion checked to root out any and all farming activities, but we also need to think carefully about the evidence and if there is enough of it, before we cast aspersions on anyone.

The paranoia is real btw.

[Guest]

Lol what, stop posting shit based on combat news alone. I boarded a pirate frig and killed it and immediately got boarded by a bucc for my mistake and got rekt in return.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Anolytic said:

This shouldn't be in tribunal. Even without knowing the players, these kills are not suspicious from the screenshot. Even if they were farming each other at the docks of La Tortue, which to begin with is not the most likely spot, I'm pretty sure it would have to be at least 3 min between the kills for it to be even possible.

I get that we want to have every suspicion checked to root out any and all farming activities, but we also need to think carefully about the evidence and if there is enough of it, before we cast aspersions on anyone.

The paranoia is real btw.

I didn't have the luxury of the screenshot and I haven't fought either player so I just wanted Ink to check it.. Basically I think most of the kills are legit, but when we can't see the names of those who are sunk then it's a bit hard to tell..

[Anolytic]

33 minutes ago, Lars Kjaer said:

I didn't have the luxury of the screenshot and I haven't fought either player so I just wanted Ink to check it.. Basically I think most of the kills are legit, but when we can't see the names of those who are sunk then it's a bit hard to tell..

When I wrote my comment, I didn't know that Pani had responded with a screenshot of the battle while I was writing. I was referring to your screenshot, not his, when I said that there was nothing suspicious there. Judging from only the timestamps, referred to by you, it would be virtually impossible for this to be a case of farming. 

Tribunals should have a minimum standard of evidence, and there is none here. All there is, is two names that were unfamiliar to you getting kills. If that was the standard, the tribunal would get flooded with requests for investigations. Every time an unknown player got a PvP-kill.

Even though your intentions were honorable and benign, naming somebody in a tribunal implies to most of those who will be reading an accusation of wrongdoing. And we should therefore all be very very careful before naming somebody in a tribunal, and only do so with concrete and convincing evidence. This is not at all the first accusation of farming I've seen that was based on faulty logic and involved a shortage of evidence.

Typically, clear cases of farming involves repeated combat news entries, often one hour intervals, and frequently there's a low-level, freshly created account involved. Sometimes somebody even managed to jump the battle. If you can check two or three of these boxes, then it might be worth taking to the tribunal. Nobody who's really farming does it only once, and if they did it only one-and-done, then it's not really something to be bothered about. So if you see something suspicious, take a note of it and watch if it repeats. Then, and only then, is it time to make a formal allegation. 

To be clear. I'm not jumping on you personally, or trying to make this about you or this allegation in particular. My attempt here is to make a wider point that the tribunal forum may be moving in an unfortunate direction in regards to certain types of allegations and their presentation. And we should be wary of this.

Edited September 30, 2018 by Anolytic

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, Anolytic said:

When I wrote my comment, I didn't know that Pani had responded with a screenshot of the battle while I was writing. I was referring to your screenshot, not his, when I said that there was nothing suspicious there. Judging from only the timestamps, referred to by you, it would be virtually impossible for this to be a case of farming. 

Tribunals should have a minimum standard of evidence, and there is none here. All there is, is two names that were unfamiliar to you getting kills. If that was the standard, the tribunal would get flooded with requests for investigations. Every time an unknown player got a PvP-kill. True enough.

Even though your intentions were honorable and benign, naming somebody in a tribunal implies to most of those who will be reading an accusation of wrongdoing. And we should therefore all be very very careful before naming somebody in a tribunal, and only do so with concrete and convincing evidence. This is not at all the first accusation of farming I've seen that was based on faulty logic and involved a shortage of evidence. Where else would you have a request for an investigation posted?

Typically, clear cases of farming involves repeated combat news entries, often one hour intervals, and frequently there's a low-level, freshly created account involved. Sometimes somebody even managed to jump the battle. If you can check two or three of these boxes, then it might be worth taking to the tribunal. Nobody who's really farming does it only once, and if they did it only one-and-done, then it's not really something to be bothered about. So if you see something suspicious, take a note of it and watch if it repeats. Then, and only then, is it time to make a formal allegation. 

To be clear. I'm not jumping on you personally, or trying to make this about you or this allegation in particular. My attempt here is to make a wider point that the tribunal forum may be moving in an unfortunate direction in regards to certain types of allegations and their presentation. And we should be wary of this.

 

[Gregory Rainsborough]

This seems, well. Unnecessary.

[Ink]

Closed, as accused players provided enough evidence