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Lieste

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  1. Lieste

    Bring boarding to a new level

    The 1815 British version of the 1812 Kreigspeil has ranges for infantry fire of 400 paces (2000 paces to the mile by definition in the rules). 6lb field gun has a canister range of 400 paces, low angle fire to 800 paces and elevated fire to 1200 paces, with random fire out to 1800 paces with minimal effect. 12lb field guns have slightly more effect to 500/1000/1500/2000 paces respectively. In all cases closing has a greater effect and is more efficient in ammunition use.
  2. Lieste

    Bring boarding to a new level

    700-750m was the line of metal range of the naval ordnance. In French nomenclature "Pointe en Blanc". (British ordnance also obtain similar line of metal ranges). At this range accuracy was tolerable, but not as good as levelled ordnance at close range. The RN 'point blank' was ~200yds, where shot fired level fall to the platform height, and it seems likely that 400-500yds was less accurate than the direct pointing with levelled ordnance or direct pointing with the line of metal. Certainly carronades were difficult to aim at this distance, and shooting over the target was a common problem due to the shorter point blank, but much steeper 'pointe en blanc'/line of metal elevation. Important is also the fall off of ordnance performance, especially with doubled shot, and smaller natures of ordnance or specialist natures of shot. Many of the 'typical' guns used were only useful with doubled shot at extremely short ranges, with only a few of the larger ordnance really benefiting from the regular use of double shot at ~400m. I understand 'pistol shot' to be somewhere in the region of 100-200 yds, and musket shot to be 400yds, by the period definitions of seige warfare and fortification manuals. Gun shot was 700 yds or so, and random fire ranges went beyond the line of metal range to the limit of the carriage elevation ~ around 2000 yds for many types. Mortars ranged further - up to 5500 yds being recorded in some 'special' circumstances, but usually a little shorter than that.
  3. Lieste

    Bring boarding to a new level

    When the fire is essentially 'random fire' there is no much difference if the aimpoint is disturbed by external factors. (They will cause 'miss aimed' shots to hit, as well as causing 'well aimed' shots to miss). The use of massed fires (there are ~100 muskets supplied to most of the rated ships), into crowed decks is also not the same as firing a single musket at a single person, and the use of harassing fire to disrupt the correct operation of the sails and ordnance (which can be catastrophic if blunders occur) is significant even if few or no casualties are caused. On the point of Grenades requiring a larger ship. Completely disagree. You can throw them upwards, or indeed down from the tops. Redoubtable is recorded as having used over 200 Grenades to clear the weather deck of the larger Victory when alongside for example.
  4. You stated 32lb is approximately 4lb grape, which is not correct, as noted and from your source it is 3lb.
  5. RN sea service Grape: 68lb 9x~6lb plus tampion 42lb 9x~4lb plus tampion 32lb 9x~3lb plus tampion 24lb 9x~2lb plus tampion 18lb 9x~1.5lb plus tampion 12lb 9x~1.0lb plus tampion 9lb 9x~13.125oz plus tampion 6lb 9x~0.5lb plus tampion 4lb 9x~6oz plus tampion
  6. RN loadings per ordnance were typically 60-70 rounds of ball, 7 of Grape (9 shot variety), 7 case (dozens to hundreds of small shot or musket balls) and 7 chain - with the exception of the lower deck of line ships (which tended to not get case or chain). For foreign service an additional 30 rounds of ball would be added. Lagrange was discouraged as it destroyed the milled bore far more rapidly than properly formed shot. Some variations existed in other nation's policy, but the proportion of specialist ammunition to ball would almost always be a minority. The French trained/influenced crews preferred to fire to the sails and some additional dismantling shot would be carried, but I don't really see a lot of evidence of large proportions of grape/case for guns. (Perhaps for obusiers while they had no provision of 'unsafe' explosive shells, prior to the demonstrations by Paixhains in the mid 1820s).
  7. Not from my reading: Victory after firing on Bucentaure fell in with Redoubtable, which exchanged broadsides on their mutually engaged sides (with buckets of water thrown through the British gun ports to prevent/reduce the risk of fires from the close proximity shooting... Reboubtable cleared the Victory's weather deck with musketry and over 200 grenades (during which part of the action Nelson was shot and mortally injured. Numerous small fires were started but rapidly extinguished. Meanwhile although her weather deck was almost deserted her lower decks kept up a fire on both Bucentaure and Santissima Trinidad from the port battery. The actual boarding of Victory required the cutting down of one of Redoubtable's yards to form a bridge, and the Victory's marines were rallied to the weather decks to counter the boarders. "At 1:30 the Redoubtable having struck her colours, we ceased firing our Starboard guns but continued engaged with the Santissima Trinidad and some of the Enemy's Ships on the Larboard side"
  8. Think of it more a a proportion than a difference. For equal velocities (and the later high gauge): Index 12lb as 100, then, wt value (+diff from next smallest) 3lb ~62.4 4lb ~68.5 (+6.1) 6lb ~78.9 (+10.3) 9lb ~90.6 (+11.8) 12lb =100 (+9.4) 18lb ~112.7 (+12.7) 24lb ~124.1 (+11.3) 32lb ~136.5 (+12.4) 42lb ~149.5 (+13.0) 56lb ~163.6 (+14.1) 68lb ~175.2 (144 with hollow shot) (+11.6 shot, -19.3 hollow)
  9. Penetration at a constant velocity scales more or less with shot diameter, rather than weight (i.e. weight ^ 1/3). The range at which an initial velocity decays to a lower value also scales in this way, so the larger shot do penetrate significantly better than weight ^1/3 at intermediate ranges compared to smaller shot. For solid shot this divergence is not very fast though, with all shot at nominal 1500fps starting with penetration ~ 7.3 x diameter, and falling by 400 yds to ~6x for 42lb and 5x for 6lb shot. With variations in muzzle velocity from changes in charge weight, windage and length there is some more variation in initial penetration, but distance penetrations tend to converge to a single value for all shot of a given size, unless the V0 variation is extreme. While impulse and the ability to reliably dismount or damage ordnance does scale directly with shot weight, the ability to hole or splinter goes more as weight ^2/3 and the ability to 'cut' with weight^1/3 (or shot diameter).
  10. Lieste

    Reuse the old Connie model USS Chesapeake.

    You'd be better off re-using the Leda class model... there are differences in form, but they are at least 'the same size' and carry nearly identical armament. Constitution is over 20 feet longer.
  11. Lieste

    USS Constitution- That Good or Just Lucky?

    Well, both the United States and President had 42 lb Carronades on the spar deck. Constitution started with a mixed battery of 12 and 18lb guns, before settling on a lighter battery of 32lb Carronades. As 2/3 of the class carried this slightly heavier Carronade it isn't unreasonable to allow it, even if the Constitution herself was considered incapable of doing so.
  12. Nope. HMS Surprise, 1796 ex L'Unite (1794) corvette de 8 - initially planned to be refitted with 9lb 7ft guns, 4lb guns and 12lb carronades. Before being commissioned and sailing on her first cruise was rearmed at Commander Hamilton's request after communication with the Admiralty with 32lb carronades, 18lb carronades on the castles and 4lb chase guns. Only served for 6 years before being sold out of the service in 1802. She is a good 6ft narrower in the beam than: Also taken in the same year, HMS Unite (1796), ex Variante (1796), ex L'Unite (1793), ex Gracieuse (1787) (Charmante class) fregate de 12 - taken into service with 12lb guns of 7.5ft, 6lb guns and 24lb carronades on the castles. Also sold in 1802. The later frigate 'HMS Surprise' (1812) was a 38 gun Leda class 18lb frigate, similar to the Tenedos or Shannon, and a few years earlier than the in game Trincomalee The confusion between the Unite and L'Unite is understandable, but giving HMS Surprise (ex L'Unite) 12 and 6lb guns is an obvious error in the Aubrey/Maturin books. Whether it was made accidentally, or was done for better 'dramatic effect' is open to interpretation, but it isn't correct, nor reasonable.
  13. The first of the Canon Obusier was the Canon Obusier 80 No1, 24 livre chamber. Founded in 1823/1824. Later modified and founded in 30 livre chamber as No1 and No2 and a lighter No3 (1848) for frigates. Some type adopted into active service by 1841. This is a 22cm weapon. (Is this the same as your Canon Obusier Om 22? as I cannot read any of the information on the image?) There is also a known Canon Obusier 30, part of the system of all 30 livre ordnance from longest guns through carronade which mirrored the RN 'all 32' fit. There are e.g 34 allowed on upper decks of first rates in regulation dated 1838, later replaced by 30 livre guns No3. The Canon Obusier 22/30 you show are not likely to be the armament of 24 livres on a Spanish ship from two decades before these French regulations, when Carronades were still common and 'useful'. The RN tested a 10" shell gun 85 cwt, but found it unwieldy so adopted instead the 8" shell gun or 50cwt. Both in 1824. It was also not found to be a fitting armament, so was in turn replaced by the 8" 65cwt in 1838. Charges for these Cannon Obusier are given as: No1 10.75-18lbs 1/5.6 charge ratio hollow/shell or 1/4.5 charge ratio shot. No1 (1842) ditto, but in a more convenient chamber size. No2 6.625lbs ~1/10.5 charge ratio shell No3 5.5-5.75lbs 1/11 charge ratio shell 30 Livre 4.375-3.125 ~ 1/6.8 charge ratio if these correspond to shot and shell. Gun 1/3 charge ratio nominal Caronade 1/12 charge ratio nominal
  14. Also... from the other (older but better formatted) 3decks page: http://3decks.pbworks.com/w/page/914869/HCMF Diana (1792) It seems as if the ordnance is *not* on the upper deck, but is a normal frigate equipment of carronades on the galliards. This type of fit is possible with frigates ~ it is seen in Russian service, and later with British and French types (see the Trincomalee for an example of 8" shell guns alongside light pattern 32lb ordnance and two 56lb guns), but it seems this isn't an example of one. Note that she has 26 guns in her main battery. Both before and after the 3lb perriers (noted as obusier) are replaced by 24lb obusiers. She is only of a typical 12lb frigate size, so the obusier are *not* in addition to this battery on the same deck). This is true both for the linked page, and also on the 'newer' 3 decks site.
  15. French: Obus de Mer (36 livres ~ 40lbs) 350 kg ~ 6.9cwt, 168mm bore, 5 cals. Caronade (36 livres ~ 40lbs) 1223 kg ~ 24cwt, 168mm bore, 7.6 cals Caronade (24 livres ~ 27lbs) 843 kg ~ 16.4cwt, 151mm bore, (assumed also 7-8 cals) Canon Obusier 80 (58.5lbs shell) 73cwt 3 qtrs 14 lbs - 12.7 cals. (Also first founded in 1823/1824) Spanish: Obusiers: 48 livre (54lb): 29.4 cwt, ~185mm bore, 7.9 cals 36 livre (40lb): 23.3cwt, ~168mm bore, 8.9 cals 24 livre (27lb): 17.5cwt, ~151mm bore, 9.9 cals 18 livre (20lb): 13.2cwt, ~135mm bore, 9.8 cals 12 livre (13.5lb): 10.4cwt, ~116mm bore, 11.3 cals Second patterns: 48 livre: 25.4cwt, 9.4 cals 36 livre: 22.5cwt, 9.6 cals 30 livre (34lbs): 18.3cwt, 9.5 cals 24 livre: 14.7cwt 9.5 cals These are slightly longer but of broadly similar weight to RN Carronades: 68lb: 36cwt, ~7.7 cals 42lb: 22.3cwt, ~7.5cals 32lb: 17.1cwt, ~7.8 cals 24lb: 13cwt, ~7.7 cals 18lb: 10cwt, ~7.6 cals Or Howitzer: 24lb: 13cwt (2.5lb charge) And much lighter than the RN 8" shell gun, which is 'similar' to the Canon Obusier, and half the weight of a 'gun' in this calibre. 8" (Sized as 68lb ordnance, firing 56lb hollowed shot or 51lb shell) 60-65cwt, 13.4 cals. For comparison British Guns in 24lb include the 9.5ft at 50cwt 9ft at 47.5cwt 8.5ft at 45cwt 7-7.5ft at ~41cwt (Congreve and Blomfeld). 6ft at 20cwt (land service, rebore of 12lb 21cwt, using 2.5lb charges, compared to the 8lb charges of the heavier types) A 1/10th charge is a little more than typical of a carronade (usually 1/12th), but not sufficient to project with much force. 24lb 6'6" with 6lb charge doesn't reach as far to PB (222yds) as a 24lb 9'6" with 6lb (248yds), and this is the maximum charge of the lighter ordnance, while only first reduce for the heavier one.
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