"Naval Arms Race" mod overhaul. BETA v11.1 - for UAD v1.5.1.3

[brothermunro]

8 hours ago, killjoy1941 said:

 

 

I'm not sure if any of the modders have an interest in doing that. They'd have to price-adjust every single component over the course of the entire game across the entire tech tree against a modified GDP growth. That's an insane amount of truly tedious work.

I'd actually love it if that got adjusted, I'm saying we probably shouldn't expect it to change much.

It is on my radar to do, not the way you’re suggesting, but more trying to reign in the budgets and GDP growth (there’s a few things that can be adjusted). 

[killjoy1941]

4 hours ago, brothermunro said:

It is on my radar to do, not the way you’re suggesting, but more trying to reign in the budgets and GDP growth (there’s a few things that can be adjusted). 

Oh, interesting. I assume you're talking about the government type modifiers? Has anyone figured out how the government changes actually work? I got as far as unrest = leftward (I use this every time I play as Germany or Japan), but I've no idea how revolutions trigger, or how to move a government right.

Also, if you do plan to change the modifiers, it's probably useful to nerf the far left/right GDP penalties and swap the right/center/left GDP bonuses. The first would keep nations getting beat up from collapsing as quickly as they do, and the second just makes way more sense.

[brothermunro]

I’ve already ‘flattened’ the GDP modifiers just so that you aren’t in weird situations like trying to lose on purpose to get unrest higher to get a revolution so you aren’t stuck with a useless government. I’m reasonably happy with the early game balance and ship prices but income just snowballs and it is very easy to have ludicrously large economies - so I’ll try my best to limit that a bit. I’ll be waiting until 1.5 is out first though before starting that.

[o Barão]

On 2/26/2024 at 8:04 AM, StrikerDanger said:

shouldn't be pushing the billion (and usually much higher) figure mark

Those values can be ignored. The game credits in game are the same for all nations. German Marks, British pounds, USA dollars, all the same.

 

Most important is to nerf the state income. I will release an experimental branch with an economy nerf for the players to test and share feedback.

 

[brothermunro]

17 hours ago, o Barão said:

Those values can be ignored. The game credits in game are the same for all nations. German Marks, British pounds, USA dollars, all the same.

 

Most important is to nerf the state income. I will release an experimental branch with an economy nerf for the players to test and share feedback.

 

I think I worked out once using the price of an Iowa class which I built as close as I could in game compared to their actual cost that UAD dollars are about the same as a 1972 US Dollar - so the actual values of ships don’t really matter at all, just how they compare to the economy.

The economy is very odd in the game, if you have any luck sorting out I’d be very interested to know how you did it 😇

[flaviohc16]

There are 2 missions in the academy that are impossible/basically impossible.

The 1st one is a battle against cruisers in which you have to build cruisers to defend you transports, the problem is that the battle starts with the ranges too close and the transports get nuked before you can even engage the enemy

 

The 2nd is "dreadnought vs modern cruisers" were you have to build a modernized BB against 2 modern CA and 2 BCs, the problem is that the enemy goes 36+ knots and has 20-25-30% hit rates, that makes impossible to play against, and even when you manage to neutralize them, they run away and you run out of ammo.

[o Barão]

BETA v5.0.4 N.A.R. changelog:

• Experimental economy changes
• This will be a side branch only for testing.
• Players feedback is important.
• Play at least 5-10 years to see how it changes the campaign experience.

 

IMPORTANT: This version is only for the players interested in testing possible economy changes to be implemented in the mod. A new campaign is needed.

 

Changes:

All ship material costs buffed 50%.

Budget base and province income nerfed 66%.

Wealth grow and inflation lowered from 0.0055 to 0.0045 (it is the same value for both modifiers)

Shipyard cost buffed 33%.

Income from allies nerfed from 15% to 10%

 

Link: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1rsqwKiBEtf1PD72XbFUkANlAXeROidYB?usp=drive_link

 

 

[flaviohc16]

59 minutes ago, o Barão said:

BETA v5.0.4 N.A.R. changelog:

• Experimental economy changes
• This will be a side branch only for testing.
• Players feedback is important.
• Play at least 5-10 years to see how it changes the campaign experience.

 

IMPORTANT: This version is only for the players interested in testing possible economy changes to be implemented in the mod. A new campaign is needed.

 

Changes:

All ship material costs buffed 50%.

Budget base and province income nerfed 66%.

Wealth grow and inflation lowered from 0.0055 to 0.0045 (it is the same value for both modifiers)

Shipyard cost buffed 33%.

Income from allies nerfed from 15% to 10%

 

Link: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1rsqwKiBEtf1PD72XbFUkANlAXeROidYB?usp=drive_link

 

 

i will try it this weekend

[flaviohc16]

@o Barão do you want us to test it on some set of

- difficulty

-nation

-start year

-how long? (10 years, ok.)

 

[o Barão]

50 minutes ago, flaviohc16 said:

@o Barão do you want us to test it on some set of

- difficulty

-nation

-start year

-how long? (10 years, ok.)

 

Spain and A-H should be the most challenging, but that is not really important. Choose anything you like, the most important thing is to have fun. 😉

See if you can notice any difference to ship costs and state wealth. The player feedback is important to know if I am in the right path or if I need to change anything else.

[FlatTopDragon]

Pardon my asking but is there any way to get the mod files specifically for 1.4.1.1R? Since 1.4.1.1R is essentially staying around wouldn't it make sense to have the files for that version on hand somewhere?

[o Barão]

3 hours ago, FlatTopDragon said:

Pardon my asking but is there any way to get the mod files specifically for 1.4.1.1R? Since 1.4.1.1R is essentially staying around wouldn't it make sense to have the files for that version on hand somewhere?

I don't support multiple versions, only the latest version and if didn't have the time to update the latest beta version.

 

Unless there are other updates before 1.5 this current version will be the official one for a good time.

[FlatTopDragon]

2 minutes ago, o Barão said:

I don't support multiple versions, only the latest version and if didn't have the time to update the latest beta version.

 

Unless there are other updates before 1.5 this current version will be the official one for a good time.

Thanks, that was all I needed to know. Have a good day.

[NathanKell]

@o Barão Hi! Been using this and enjoying it. Thanks! I had a question regarding guns, particularly reload times. I was wondering where those came from? They seem rather different from what I know of historic firing rates, and I did a bit of digging on NavWeaps to try to refresh my memory. It appears that in NAR, the refire rates decrease as caliber increases, but that doesn't seem to have been the case historically; for example the 13.5" on the British super dreads had a rate of fire of 1.5-2rds a minute, in line with the 14/50 on the later Standards, the 16/45 on the Colorados, the 18/45 on the Yamatos, and one presumes slightly worse (!) than the 16/50 on the Iowas (which had a nominal 28s firing cycle), and considerably worse than Bismarck's performance with its 15/52 guns. There's other oddities I've noticed at lower calibers as well, and lastly most all the numbers seem a bit low when compared to ingame using a crew of skill 50 (which I would take to be 'average' in practice)--there seems to be some hidden factor lowering RoF compared to what's in the guns TextAsset.

Are the numbers the way they are for balance reasons?

Somewhat relatedly, do you know why a gun part set to a given length (i.e. by using the parts asset to make it a 12/50 instead of the 12/45 it otherwise would be) has _different stats_ from a 12/45 that you increase to 12/50 via the Length setting in-game?

Lastly, and completely unrelatedly, is there a reason the US Super Heavy Cruiser (i.e. Des Moines class) hull is using Atlanta superstructure? I mean, it's understandably using the Atlanta hull to get the transom stern, but does that require the same superstructure?

[flaviohc16]

I'm trying the experimental economics mod, but i have noticed that when i got to "very advanced" (relative to the others) the time to research all the technologies went up by 50%, is it normal?

[o Barão]

11 hours ago, NathanKell said:

I had a question regarding guns, particularly reload times. I was wondering where those came from?

In this link below you will find all the historical guns I researched for the mod (*135 guns) and then I convert them to the game files. Caliber and mark variant, with that info I create a table that is also in that link where you can see the reload times. Note, that is not always 1 to 1. Some values were changed to make sense with the other neighbor values. A linear progression. Not always 100% realistic but very close to real life performance.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1mshmAKPuJlmwytoX9yaJ-rdOuQ_t9Afg

 

*All the guns researched have a link that you can open to see information about the gun, and in all of them you will see a reference to the reload speed.

Also, important. I don't remember now if I implemented a limit to the reload speed for the small caliber guns, but some months ago, the devs mentioned a possible bug in game if the gun's reload speed was too quick. Should be easy to see that in game by looking to the 2" mk 5.

 

24 minutes ago, flaviohc16 said:

I'm trying the experimental economics mod, but i have noticed that when i got to "very advanced" (relative to the others) the time to research all the technologies went up by 50%, is it normal?

I didn't change anything related to the research. Can you share some screenshots to for me to understand better what you are seeing?

[flaviohc16]

18 minutes ago, o Barão said:

 

 

I didn't change anything related to the research. Can you share some screenshots to for me to understand better what you are seeing?

The problem is that I have only the "after", because i didn t know that it was going to happen.

 

I am playing as US, start in 1890, and I'm in 1910, and i had radar ready to get researched in 89 months, then after 2 months i had it in 130 months.

 

 

oh, wait, literally now that i was typing i might get what it was: i just got in peace. I'm an idiot.

 

tomorrow i will have both the old and the new campaign in 1914, and i will have screenshot for both

Edited February 29 by flaviohc16

[o Barão]

2 hours ago, flaviohc16 said:

 

I am playing as US, start in 1890, and I'm in 1910, and i had radar ready to get researched in 89 months, then after 2 months i had it in 130 months.

 

IMO, is two possible things.

 

A ) You were not using all the priorities in the research tree. The moment you choose another one will affect the time for all the others.

B ) You move the slider in the finances.

 

[flaviohc16]

So, i went for the same set of "rules" both with the vanilla mod and the normal one, and overall the difference i would say it's good:

US 1890 start, normal difficulty

pictures are of 1914, so 24 years of game

in both, i deleted Spain , after around 12 years of initial peace to make the economy grow.

in the test economy, Japan collapsed due to war very early on against both russia and China, but i was impressed by the fact of how quickly and aggressively we divided all the "ungoverned territories" between the nations that had a navy there, in like 18 months the entire japan was under someone.

Now the economy feels way, way more grounded, and the numbers of ship too: both the 2 biggest AI economies have around half of their navy compared to the vanilla mod, and their economy is way smaller (and mine too):

vanilla top 2 ai economies and me:  ( UK, Germany, USA): 2.7 trillions, 1 trillion, 600billions

economies in the test: (same nations): 300 billiions, 260, 190.

The game economy, even in normal difficulty, is not snowballing, i have to keep an eye to the economy and can't perma-build ship.

 

Also, i just checked, the numbers of ships by class (excluding dds) for both the UK and Germany, are pretty close to IRL 1914.

 

I would say that it's a very good success!!

folder with the pictures of both scenarios, so you can study them ( and one image showing the problem with the Battlecruisers vs dreadnought accademy mission, that i told you a couple of post back)

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/15oIX4xNe5GHnAoRK6y4qct7slhbsIDJs?usp=sharing

 

 

 

[flaviohc16]

1 minute ago, o Barão said:

IMO, is two possible things.

 

A ) You were not using all the priorities in the research tree. The moment you choose another one will affect the time for all the others.

B ) You move the slider in the finances.

 

no, i was an idiot, i just got peace and that rebalanced my budget.

 

also, when 1.5?  the devs seems to have solved the "range found" bug

[brothermunro]

15 minutes ago, flaviohc16 said:

also, when 1.5?  the devs seems to have solved the "range found" bug

I’m not quite sure what they did but the range found bonus seems to cap itself based on range, you still see the crazy 2000%+ chance but only at very close ranges, at normal battle ranges it seems much more restrained.

[o Barão]

30 minutes ago, flaviohc16 said:

 

also, when 1.5?  the devs seems to have solved the "range found" bug

Two weeks. Maybe less, maybe more. First I want to play and test all the new things 🙂

[Stallfighter]

I'm quite enjoing this mod so far (not tried the economy test version yet), and for better or worse I got a weird idea to suggest, if it is even possible to do.

So, there is that "night vision" stat on the later towers. Assuming it works at all, is it possible to add it to the smaller caliber guns (I'ld say 6 in or less) to simulate star shell usage?

On the same line of thoughts, they can get submarine attack/defence boosting stats, to, again, simulate star shells and this time, diving shells as well (not the japanese anti-armor kind, the ASW ones that were deployed since WWI and still were in service even in the WWII).
Diving shells might actually be interesing as a separate shell type by themselfs but it would require to replace something (like incendiary in case of HE or SAP for AP), but is it even possible?

[o Barão]

29 minutes ago, Stallfighter said:

So, there is that "night vision" stat on the later towers. Assuming it works at all, is it possible to add it to the smaller caliber guns (I'ld say 6 in or less) to simulate star shell usage?

Night stat is a tower modifier and will be applied to all guns (if is working). I enable that in game, but I never run some tests to see if it is working or not.

 

31 minutes ago, Stallfighter said:

On the same line of thoughts, they can get submarine attack/defence boosting stats, to, again, simulate star shells and this time, diving shells as well (not the japanese anti-armor kind, the ASW ones that were deployed since WWI and still were in service even in the WWII).

Diving shells might actually be interesing as a separate shell type by themselfs but it would require to replace something (like incendiary in case of HE or SAP for AP), but is it even possible?

I can only work with things already in the game files. I can create new hulls with parts already available in the game or create new component versions with different sizes or stats, but to implement new game mechanics then it needs to be created by the devs.

[NathanKell]

16 hours ago, o Barão said:

In this link below you will find all the historical guns I researched for the mod (*135 guns) and then I convert them to the game files. Caliber and mark variant, with that info I create a table that is also in that link where you can see the reload times. Note, that is not always 1 to 1. Some values were changed to make sense with the other neighbor values. A linear progression. Not always 100% realistic but very close to real life performance.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1mshmAKPuJlmwytoX9yaJ-rdOuQ_t9Afg

 

*All the guns researched have a link that you can open to see information about the gun, and in all of them you will see a reference to the reload speed.

Also, important. I don't remember now if I implemented a limit to the reload speed for the small caliber guns, but some months ago, the devs mentioned a possible bug in game if the gun's reload speed was too quick. Should be easy to see that in game by looking to the 2" mk 5.

 

Yes, there does seem to be a cap on RoF that the small guns hit. But that's not what I'm talking about. What I mean is that the numbers specified in the guns textasset are higher than what is observed ingame _across all guns_. To test this yourself, try going to Shared Designs, set your nation to US, your year to 1918 or so, your crew skill to 50, and add a 2x 16/45 turret. Note that the quoted RoF in the tooltip is lower than what is specified in the textasset. That holds for pretty much every mark of every gun I've looked at, and worse it's not a constant factor (and not one that can be explained by other changes in reload time via tech). Here's my WIP changes to RoF to achieve historical stated rates (we're clearly looking at the same data on navweaps! ), which are inexact but seem to be rather closer _in practice_ despite looking wacky in the textasset. Some of them are pure speculation, of course. (Annoyingly I don't see how to format-as-code so this is an image...)
  

 

Note that this does do what I was talking about regarding how RoF for big guns (13+) seems to stay broadly constant until 19+ inches, so the above tries to replicate the ~1.4 for the early 14/45, ~1.7 for the 14/50, 2 for the 15s, 1.5 for the 16/45 but 2 for the SoDak/Lex's 16/50, etc.

 

Speaking of calibers, do you have any insight on that caliber question above? Or is that another mystery for a game that seems to have a bunch of them?