AI Torpedo Spam

[FleetAdmiral_Bird]

Anyone else have to deal with walls of torpedoes in every custom match? No matter the nation, no matter the ships, all the AI does is spam torpedoes. It's annoying.

Edited December 8, 2021 by FleetAdmiral_Bird
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[T_the_ferret]

Yup, it keeps happening. Probably because the AI realizes torpedoes are way better currently than going gun-heavy

[Danelin Aruna]

I mean some nations historically went for torpedo armaments *looking at you Japan*

and they are a great weapon. i like employing them. although my success rate isnt that good against the AI they cheat.

[T_the_ferret]

Here every nation seems to do so regardless, i've had massive torpedo spam from both Britain and Germany in campaigns, and from Italy or China in custom

[DougToss]

Torpedos seem to have all of the advantages and none of the flaws present historically. 
 

The addition of no reloads, followed later by extremely slow and limited reloads would go a long way - if ammo  needs to be conserved not only for tactical battles but for the entire sortie, firing at very fleeting opportunities and extreme ranges no longer makes sense. Look at surface warship torpedo expenditure in the Great War: it was much lower than theorists expected because the use of torpedoes had to be inherently conservative.  
 

Building on that, conserving torpedos for ideal firing solutions was also made necessary by the many problems with reliability. Running shallow, running deep, gyro problems, detonator problems, launcher problems, motor problems, there was no shortage of flaws with torpedoes. Knowing that they may only work in ideal circumstances presents another reason to conserve ammo for the best possible shooting opportunity, and would do much to reduce the perfect fans of effective torpedoes we see now.   
 

In addition to that, there is the human element. Even with mechanical computing devices, calculating a firing solution for a salvo took time and was prone to error. A fleeting contact would not produce a solution worth expending valuable, somewhat unreliable ammunition. It would be good to see the human element limit firing because they were unable or unwilling to engage under unfavourable circumstances. Producing errors both in bearing and fan dispersion would also be very helpful. Error in target range, speed and bearing would, over the length of a torpedo’s run, lead to wide misses.

 

I think these factors would lead to shooting more rarely, under good conditions, as well as more errors both with the torpedoes themselves and their use. 

Edited December 9, 2021 by DougToss

[SiWi]

well what do you expect?

Besides from BB's and BC's and maybe CA's you would absolutely expect torpedoes on most classes. Mind you that historically even BB's and CA (the later quite regular) had them. In fact some of the the worst AI ships are CL without them.

You don't mention the time of the battle but it seems that it is rather advance. hence a ships could have 3 or 4 torps per launcher.

 Having more then one launcher then quickly results into well... tons of torps especially in big battles like what you are showing.

[T_the_ferret]

2 hours ago, SiWi said:

well what do you expect?

Balanced AI ship composition with the nation AI the devs described where some nations are torpedo-heavy while others are gun-heavy, and some nations put torpedoes on every class while other reserve them for DDs and CLs

[SiWi]

56 minutes ago, T_the_ferret said:

Balanced AI ship composition with the nation AI the devs described where some nations are torpedo-heavy while others are gun-heavy, and some nations put torpedoes on every class while other reserve them for DDs and CLs

custom battles are random designs.

 

besides: if you fight in 1930, you will end up with alot of torps even if you don't focus on them.

[T_the_ferret]

You telling me both Britain and Germany historically slapped a shitton of torpedoes on every ship class? Because i got that even in campaign

Edited December 9, 2021 by T_the_ferret

[SiWi]

you always play with "historical AI" On?

Besides, torps were a pretty common weapon even on BB's. Tirpitz was even retrofit with torps (which I find a bewildering choice given the time) Come to think of it, many german BB's in the 1930's/40s had torps.

So ironically a historical AI for  Germany would probably "need" torps on BB's.

[T_the_ferret]

I do play on historical on yeah, wanted to see if it made any difference from custom battle and honestly in my opinion it doesn't. I see about the same amount of torpedo spam for both nations with UK regularly fielding torps on heavy cruisers or BBs as well

[Littorio]

45 minutes ago, T_the_ferret said:

I do play on historical on yeah, wanted to see if it made any difference from custom battle and honestly in my opinion it doesn't. I see about the same amount of torpedo spam for both nations with UK regularly fielding torps on heavy cruisers or BBs as well

To be fair I think most British BBs and CAs had torps, it's just that they were rarely if ever used. DDs and CLs were obviously faster and had an easier time getting into position to try. The larger ships were less often in a position where launching torps made sense.

[T_the_ferret]

I dunno about the historical side but i just find it really boring that no matter what happens AI just goes for torp spam because its "the most efficient" and i haven't seen any example of this "national historical AI" tbh

[SiWi]

3 hours ago, T_the_ferret said:

I dunno about the historical side but i just find it really boring that no matter what happens AI just goes for torp spam because its "the most efficient" and i haven't seen any example of this "national historical AI" tbh

I have notice some, in terms of using cordite or having BC with strong guns but bad protection.

Thou maybe I'm imaging things and it was random that those ships had them.

[DougToss]

Were any ships even hit with torpedoes during Jutland, let alone sunk with them? I can't remember, but I'm leaning towards none, which means that torpedoes were not nearly as efficient or effective  as they are in game at the moment, and it's skewing tactics accordingly. 
 

e: Corrected by @Littorio below!

Edited December 10, 2021 by DougToss

[Littorio]

43 minutes ago, DougToss said:

Were any ships even hit with torpedoes during Jutland, let alone sunk with them? I can't remember, but I'm leaning towards none, which means that torpedoes were not nearly as efficient or effective  as they are in game at the moment, and it's skewing tactics accordingly. 

SMS Seydlitz (BC) was hit by HMS Petard (DD)  but kept speed. Petard also sank the V29 (TB) with her torpedoes. HMS Marlborough (BB) was hit by a German torpedo of unknown origin, possibly fired by the randomly drifting and disabled SMS Wiesbaden (CL) and had to reduce her speed.  HMS Shark was sunk torpedoes fired by by S54 (DD). SMS Frauenlob (CL) was torpedoed and sunk by HMS Southhampton (CL).

SMS Rostock (CL) and the pre-dreadnought battleship SMS Pommern were also sunk by massed torpedo attacks from a variety of British destroyer flotillas at the cost of five of their number. The Germans scuttled Lutzow (BC) with torpedoes from G38 (DD). It's also possible that the TB V4 was hit by  submarine torpedo but this was never determined and could have been a mine strike.

So altogether eight vessels from both sides were hit by enemy torpedoes, with five sinking, a ninth being scuttled by their own side, and a possible tenth from a submarine. Still torpedoes had a large impact on the battle because both sides had to dodge volleys several times, and the presence of a possible torpedo attack influenced the commanders accordingly.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Littorio

[DougToss]

8 hours ago, Littorio said:

So altogether eight vessels from both sides were hit by enemy torpedoes, with five sinking, a ninth being scuttled by their own side, and a possible tenth from a submarine. Still torpedoes had a large impact on the battle because both sides had to dodge volleys several times, and the presence of a possible torpedo attack influenced the commanders accordingly.

I stand corrected! I was off by quite a bit, those are better results than I had thought. Thank you for catching that, I appreciate it.
 

I was thinking of that illustration of the use of screens and torpedoes in theory versus practice and must have been a bit too pessimistic. 

 

[SiWi]

I somehow remember a line of a Drachinfiel video where he roughly said (it was about alternatives for the battle samar)

"In one war game the US Destroyers came up and fire their 250+ torpedoes at the Japanese Battleline with the words "dodge this"".

[T_the_ferret]

And then they did because the AI literally turns their ships like tanks

[SiWi]