Crew cost is obviously too expensive or...

[Fargo]

2 hours ago, The Spud said:

What we should do as a better comparison, i'll try to do it myself too, is for the next 20 battles write down your crew loss and the money you made. Preferably not 20 missions, just PvP, screening and PvE combined (maybe not PB's), the battles you would normaly do. And then at the end make a comparison. If we take crew lost x 500 and compare to your earnings, we'll get a better average of how many money you can make from doing PvP.

Obviously if you focus on making money like capping traders AI or player your profits should be nice.

Use npc medkits right now and its only x 72. With player crafted prices it was x 300 some time ago. Why not use med kits? I guess buying crew in harbours is ment as a last resort in case there are no medkits availiable.

The problem is if you balance general crew cost, medkits will become imbalanced, not worth to craft. Players crafting stuff drives economy, players buying npc crew does nothing.

 

"180363-143500=36.863 For spending 50 mins, with 5 kills made and 1.5k damage etc...  "

What would be a fair reward?! Nobody can answer this right away. You have to see this in relation to prices etc., how much time it takes to buy a new ship of your rank, the actual numbers cant say much. And talking about new players we should test with lower ranked missions. 

Your example using player crafted medkits would result in 95k profit. A new Bucket would be about 2mio, about 17 hours of pure pve in your case. With labour hours you could make 200k profit/day in addition. When you play about 4 hours/day its 8 days for a new bucket. This could be discussed for example.

And it wont make sense to adjust mission rewards to actual inflation prices, this should be done with the economy update and asset wipe.

Edited January 16, 2017 by Fargo

[The Spud]

3 minutes ago, Fargo said:

Use npc medkits right now and its only x 72. With player crafted prices it was x 300 some time ago. Why not use med kits? I guess buying crew in harbours is ment as a last resort in case there are no medkits availiable.

The problem is if you balance general crew cost, medkits will become imbalanced, not worth to craft. Players crafting stuff drives economy, players buying npc crew does nothing.

 

"180363-143500=36.863 For spending 50 mins, with 5 kills made and 1.5k damage etc...  "

What would be a fair reward?! Nobody can answer this right away. You have to see this in relation to prices etc., how much time it takes to buy a new ship of your rank, the actual numbers cant say much. And talking about new players we should test with lower ranked missions. 

Your example using player crafted medkits would result in 95k profit. A new Bucket would be about 2mio, about 17 hours of pure pve in your case. With labour hours you could make 200k profit/day in addition. When you play about 4 hours/day its 8 days for a new bucket. This could be discussed for example.

And it wont make sense to adjust mission rewards to actual inflation prices, this should be done with the economy update and asset wipe.

I consider 1 crew loss = 500 gold as being the core mechanic of the game, and I see medkits and perks as a way to reduce the effect of this core mechanic. We must see if by the regular way PvP is profitable. If we see its not and people have to use perks/medkits to make it profitable, then I think the core mechanic is not working as intended.

Thats why it would be interesting to see how much money you actualy made after 20 battles, cause battles is what this game is mostly about. If you would concentrate purely on making money, then you wouldn't be doing missions you would be out doing trade runs, crafting or capping trader AI's (which can land you +-60k each time for 5 minutes of "battle".)

So to speak, if someone with a total disinterest for crafting, trading or AI trader capping would play this game could he make a decent profit doing so.

As a side note, at this moment, with the lack of tutorials, I have found that new players will just hire crew at 500 gold each. As they don't know about officer perks or medkits. They'll hire an officer but don't know how to use the perks or how to reset them.

 

[The Spud]

11 minutes ago, Hodo said:

I still stand by my original point on crew costs.  They are fine as is.  500g per man is pretty reasonable.  When you factor in crew was hands down THE most expensive thing on a ship.   Why?  Because able body seamen were not something that just fell off of trees.  They had to be trained, and maintained.   With the cheapest perk you can get, Doctor, you can cut your overhead on crew losses by 70%, which is HUGE!   If you then use medkits, even the cheapest small medkits are still less than 25% of the cost per unit than any 10 men.   Which means you can cut costs even more.  

Not to mention it also forces you to look at your sailing habits a little closer.  If you just sit there and hammer broadside after broadside at another ship you can expect to have an expensive fight.  But if you use tactics, try and minimize your exposure to return fire, while maximizing your damage output, you can also reduce your crew expense.  

While I dont sail a 2nd rate, not that I cant, I just dont like them.  I do use 3rd and 4th rates.   You can avoid or deflect a lot of shots off of your hull if you sail a bit more defensive, and perhaps at the end of the battle 1 out of 3 of every man on your ship wont be dead or wounded.  

 

Isn't it strange that with the use of surgion, doctor and medkits your 40k profit turns into roughly a 160k profit. Wouldn't it be much more balanced if your initial profit would be 80-100k and the perks/medkits make it a 160k profit? It would still be worth putting them on, but it wouldn't become on of the standard officer perks like frigate master (etc.), double shot and double charge.

I don't mean they should increase the mission rewards, just reduce the crewcost.

[Fargo]

29 minutes ago, The Spud said:

I consider 1 crew loss = 500 gold as being the core mechanic of the game, and I see medkits and perks as a way to reduce the effect of this core mechanic. We must see if by the regular way PvP is profitable. If we see its not and people have to use perks/medkits to make it profitable, then I think the core mechanic is not working as intended.

Thats why it would be interesting to see how much money you actualy made after 20 battles, cause battles is what this game is mostly about. If you would concentrate purely on making money, then you wouldn't be doing missions you would be out doing trade runs, crafting or capping trader AI's (which can land you +-60k each time for 5 minutes of "battle".)

So to speak, if someone with a total disinterest for crafting, trading or AI trader capping would play this game could he make a decent profit doing so.

As a side note, at this moment, with the lack of tutorials, I have found that new players will just hire crew at 500 gold each. As they don't know about officer perks or medkits. They'll hire an officer but don't know how to use the perks or how to reset them.

 

What im asking for is the definition of "profitable" and "decent profit", thats the point. 

If they dont know how to find med kits, they will get to know that, its not that hidden. The majority is using med kits and the reason for crew cost was to make running larger ships expensive. If you balance npc crew to achieve this, med kits will negate the effect or end useless. Its pointless to have med kits when you dont treat them as a core mechanic. 

If low rank rewards are too low, change the fixed mission rewards. Crew cost needs to be related to high rank combat.

[Ned Loe]

39 minutes ago, Fargo said:

What im asking for is the definition of "profitable" and "decent profit", thats the point. 

If they dont know how to find med kits, they will get to know that, its not that hidden. The majority is using med kits and the reason for crew cost was to make running larger ships expensive. If you balance npc crew to achieve this, med kits will negate the effect or end useless. Its pointless to have med kits when you dont treat them as a core mechanic. 

If low rank rewards are too low, change the fixed mission rewards. Crew cost needs to be related to high rank combat.

This can fix only half of the problem and info is hidden. Everything in Naval Action is hidden for new guys. Note that.  

I would suggest Devs to add a warning window that would show players what they are missing before they set sail into the Open Sea. This can take care of major mistakes new players make and rage for no reason causing Naval Action huge damages in reviews.

For Example -

--------------------------------------------------------------

Are you sure you want to leave XXXX Port?

Yes/No

You have

130/250 Crew BUY

25/25 repair kits, BUY

0/25 Med kits, BUY

0/1000 Ammo, BUY

Suggested Officer Perks

Doctor - Strongly Recommended, Learn

Surgeon - Strongly Recommended, Learn

(in case they add it in future and I see no problem with limited ammo(weight in tons), I only see more Econ possibilities and more players). 

etc..

--------------------------------------------------------------

Now this simple message will make sure new players are ready to go into the wild. In addition, Gold rewards or Officer skill gain for 1st - 2 ranks must be boosted significantly. This not only benefit Nation switch for balance purposes let's say on monthly base after map Reset, but also make starting path easier and more understandable. 

[The Spud]

I think I just fail in getting my point across here, I don't disagree with you guys.

I just think that its stupid to have one option that makes the crew cost 500 a piece and then you can buy a large medkit as low as 7500 gold, making it 50 a piece for crew with just a little more effort. Those are like way too far apart, that just doesn't make any sence at all, the default offered solution to hire crew is basicaly a scam.

[Fargo]

1 hour ago, The Spud said:

I think I just fail in getting my point across here, I don't disagree with you guys.

I just think that its stupid to have one option that makes the crew cost 500 a piece and then you can buy a large medkit as low as 7500 gold, making it 50 a piece for crew with just a little more effort. Those are like way too far apart, that just doesn't make any sence at all, the default offered solution to hire crew is basicaly a scam.

I would assume its a mistake. When i played last you could buy/sell for 40-50k. The npc price was 75k i think, so no reduction at all. Maybe somebody just forgot a 0?!

3 hours ago, Wind said:

This can fix only half of the problem and info is hidden. Everything in Naval Action is hidden for new guys. Note that.  

I would suggest Devs to add a warning window that would show players what they are missing before they set sail into the Open Sea. This can take care of major mistakes new players make and rage for no reason causing Naval Action huge damages in reviews.

 

If this really is a known problem, why is there no simple solution yet?

Hints in the loading screen, simple Information windows when you click something the first time. Some basic starting suggestions linked in the sign in window, just something?!

Edited January 16, 2017 by Fargo

[The Spud]

PvP1 KPR, i buy my medkits at 10k (that is 10.000) or below, I haven't even seen them for sale for 40-50k. I bought 50 a couple weeks ago, haven't checked since. If they would be 40-50k, i would start making them myself. But I could probably get some of them from my clan too if the cost would realy be that high. Might very well be they're priced allot higher elsewhere, but I wouldn't know. Will check later.

[Fargo]

5 hours ago, The Spud said:

PvP1 KPR, i buy my medkits at 10k (that is 10.000) or below, I haven't even seen them for sale for 40-50k. I bought 50 a couple weeks ago, haven't checked since. If they would be 40-50k, i would start making them myself. But I could probably get some of them from my clan too if the cost would realy be that high. Might very well be they're priced allot higher elsewhere, but I wouldn't know. Will check later.

2-3 month ago before 9.97 you had to craft or buy them from players. 40-50k was a good price for both sides btw.

[OlFson]

On 16.1.2017 at 10:10 AM, Fletch67 said:

Run smaller mission, the one just before the Comadore mission is great for a bucc, you loose less crew and get most the kills in a fleet mission. Taking a mission the same level as yourself will always result in a lot of crew lost, always go one or two below.

Might add a few thoughts. I started the last weekend, crew while leveling is no problem if you handle it like Fletch hinted. I always take the missions 1 lvl below my actuall lvl along with a ship that I can man with free crew. Meaning I could man a surprise atm, but been driving around in a cerberus so far due to the fact that crew cost me that much in the beginning. (and I still have to buy 5 crewman to get to 100%)

No, I deliberatly didnt read the forum before I started playing since we get a reset I can find out a lot of stuff for myself. And now I am contradicting myself since I made it to the forum today

And no, so far I havent heard about medi kits in game. Therefor I havent activly been looking for them. Got one in a mission though. Will try to include them in the future.

[The Spud]

I can't remeber I ever payed that much money for a medkit, but I might be wrong. I think I crafted them myself once or twice maybe, cause non were for sale I think. But as of the last couple of months I have had cheap crew replacement.

I said I was going to write down the exact numbers but I kinda forgot to, so I don't have them down to a crew member exactly but yesterday i had the following situation. Screening at Bridgetown, got in a fight lost 125 crew, Port Battle at Salamanca lost 200 crew, screening at Castries (got fireshipped) lost 450 on my pavel (ouch). I do know I made 280k gold combined, at 500 gold a crew that would have been 387,5k gold, so a 100k loss. Luckily it only costed me like 50k of med kits to replace. Now a fireship is not something you'll experience every day, I think my losses would probably have been around the 50 mark on that last battle without it, so it still would have been a nice profit even at 500 gold a crew.

[DeRuyter]

On ‎1‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 10:05 AM, Wind said:

This can fix only half of the problem and info is hidden. Everything in Naval Action is hidden for new guys. Note that.  

I would suggest Devs to add a warning window that would show players what they are missing before they set sail into the Open Sea. This can take care of major mistakes new players make and rage for no reason causing Naval Action huge damages in reviews.

For Example -

--------------------------------------------------------------

Are you sure you want to leave XXXX Port?

Yes/No

You have

130/250 Crew BUY

25/25 repair kits, BUY

0/25 Med kits, BUY

0/1000 Ammo, BUY

Suggested Officer Perks

Doctor - Strongly Recommended, Learn

Surgeon - Strongly Recommended, Learn

(in case they add it in future and I see no problem with limited ammo(weight in tons), I only see more Econ possibilities and more players). 

etc..

--------------------------------------------------------------

Now this simple message will make sure new players are ready to go into the wild. In addition, Gold rewards or Officer skill gain for 1st - 2 ranks must be boosted significantly. This not only benefit Nation switch for balance purposes let's say on monthly base after map Reset, but also make starting path easier and more understandable. 

This goes along with a tutorial which could also explain these things and help new players. It could explain the crew system noting that after the basic 40-60 crew. Unfortunately a tutorial like this would be last on the priority list before release along with the revamped UI.

[DeRuyter]

Here is a crew loss example from PVP:

Lineship PB - Victory with 850 crew (gold hammocks) - got raked (did successfully use brace once ) lost over 200 crew in battle. 630ish at the end. With doctor perk recovered almost to 750 - one Med medkit back to full (Commodore) crew.