Marine/Amphibious Force

[Suribachi]

What are the community's thoughts about being able to train up and use a Marine force, separate from the standing army the nation uses and standard crew pool.  Taking the US Marines as direct inspiration, they would hit a beach via amphibious landings and try to control the port and subsequent coast.  This makes room for the army to come in behind them and then push further inland to occupy a province.  Maybe a new tech tree item to improve their equipment like with submarines as well?

I believe that this would give the player some more control over invasions and lessen frustrations of the naval invasions not always working the way we think they should.  At the very least on provinces on the coast allowing the army a foothold to then push further on its own.

[RNV]

I think it would be an interesting mechanic and it would increase player agency, which is, unfortunately, very lacking at the moment in the game.

In the very far future, once all the current features are working as intended, it would be cool to be able to have a panel like the submarine one where you can recruit the regiments and maybe customise them to a certain extent. Although customisation might be pointless since the only purpose of these units would be to execute the first stage of naval invasions.

[Suribachi]

Just want to expand a bit.  By customization via the tech tree, what I am referring to is unlocking new landing crafts to lessen your casualties, better weapons that are a balance between offence and defense, and maybe better signaling equipment so the marines can better coordinate fire support with the ships increasing enemy casualties. 

I will admit that the idea is extremely rough and needs more fleshing out.

[Lima]

This is extremely necessary along with improved landing mechanics. I want to be able to deploy a certain number of people for a certain operation. Now I'm using hundreds of ships and probably hundreds of thousands of soldiers to capture some island.

Edited January 3, 2023 by Lima

[Spitfire_97]

Just my two cents here but I really don't wanna have to muck about with training infantry in a game about naval strategy. If you want to add a separate crew pool for land warfare... why not just give the player control of the army? The only thing marines would add to the game is control of invasions, and you don't really need an entire crew training mechanic just to give the player control over invasions because control should never have been taken away in the first place.

Adding more detail to amphibious operations kinda runs into the issue that we don't actually get to take part in any such operations. Remember we don't have land modelled anywhere in battle, heck even port raids are in the open ocean. If we had an encounter like "Amphibious Landing" where you had to destroy the harbour defences then keep your troop carrying ships in the harbour zone for a certain time period to offload, that would be cool. But without that you'd just be adding more detail that the player won't ever get to interact or engage with. All the extra crew training and research, to the player would just look like different numbers on the "Land War" page between turns, that's the only difference it would make.

And that there is the crux of the issue. The land war has so much of an impact on what the player does, but it all happens off-screen between turns. We don't get to see it, we just get told the outcome in plain text. No matter how much extra detail gets added, if this issue isn't addressed it will never be enjoyable for the player, marines or no

[HistoricalAccuracyMan]

I like this idea. I would say that the pool of recruits for this marine force should either come directly from it's own "crew pool," or make it to where we have one "total pool" and then split that between "crew pool" and "marine infantry pool." (After all, the US Marines are technically a department of the US Navy).

The basis/context (for those that are concerned about it) is already there when you look at examples, from WWII anyways, such as: the US Marines and US Navy Frog men, Russian Naval Infantry, Kriegsmarine Infantry, and I'm sure the British/Royal Navy had some version of Naval Infantry (or, if you want to be general about it, you could just call them "specialized" infantry in-game). These group's effectiveness in-game would be directly influenced by crew training and any research regarding crew training.

Or, if this idea of a "marine infantry" won't be added...maybe we can go the tech tree route. We would have the "amphibious invasion" or "naval invasion" (whichever you/the devs prefer to call it) branch and it could have the headings "tactics," "communication," "support," and "defense." Similar to how the shipbuilding branch has Destroyer Design, Cruiser Design, Hull Construction, and Hull Design.

Tactics-different strategies/tactics/general training that your troops learn that can increase your chances of successful invasions
Communication-develop better comms equipment for troops so they can communicate with each other and the supporting ships better/easier, increasing success chances
Support-things like gunfire support, landing of additional troops and more supplies to keep the invasion going, eventually special troops (like US Marines)
Defense-helps you develop things that will repel an enemy invasion force like costal/pre-sighted artillery, mines on the beaches, underwater obstacles, partisan/civilian readiness training, etc

Here's just a small sampling of some more specific items under each of these headings (in no particular order or time-era):

Tactics                              Communication                         Support                                              Defense

Suppressive Fire              Flags/Signal Lamps                   Small Caliber Gunfire Support          Defensive Trench Network
Diversion Tactics             Morse Code Transmitter           Large Caliber Gunfire Support         Fortifications
Advanced Training I        One-way radios                         Specialized Infantry I                         Costal Artillery
Leap-Frog Advance        Forward Command Post           Logistics/Resupply Landings I           Underwater Obstacles I
Advanced Training II       Two-way radios                         Specialized Infantry II                        Pre-sighted artillery I
Night Landings                Improved radio cables              Trauma Center I                                  Landmines I
Mass Attack I                   Portable Radios                         Advanced Recon                                Pre-sighted artillery II

 

**Pre-sighted artillery I would be small stuff like mortars and gradually work it's way up in size, Underwater Obstacles I would be like those wooden posts you see in D-Day photos, and subsequent upgrades would be things like steel hedgehogs and underwater mines**

Again, just a small sampling of possible ideas in no particular order, but if you don't want to directly manage the fleet and the troops hitting the beaches...this allows you to at least try and increase your success chances in a naval invasion.

[Suribachi]

4 hours ago, Spitfire_97 said:

Just my two cents here but I really don't wanna have to muck about with training infantry in a game about naval strategy. If you want to add a separate crew pool for land warfare... why not just give the player control of the army? The only thing marines would add to the game is control of invasions, and you don't really need an entire crew training mechanic just to give the player control over invasions because control should never have been taken away in the first place.

Adding more detail to amphibious operations kinda runs into the issue that we don't actually get to take part in any such operations. Remember we don't have land modelled anywhere in battle, heck even port raids are in the open ocean. If we had an encounter like "Amphibious Landing" where you had to destroy the harbour defences then keep your troop carrying ships in the harbour zone for a certain time period to offload, that would be cool. But without that you'd just be adding more detail that the player won't ever get to interact or engage with. All the extra crew training and research, to the player would just look like different numbers on the "Land War" page between turns, that's the only difference it would make.

And that there is the crux of the issue. The land war has so much of an impact on what the player does, but it all happens off-screen between turns. We don't get to see it, we just get told the outcome in plain text. No matter how much extra detail gets added, if this issue isn't addressed it will never be enjoyable for the player, marines or no

Sorry, I am not good at initially pitching the ideas in my head to somebody else.  I meant for it to be something like what we already see in the Naval Invasion mechanic.  Instead of the army trying to take the coastal province, your marines do.  Once you have control, your Marines are called back to the ships and the army then occupies the region.  From then on, the army does what the army does.

The point was to give the player control over the initial assault, or in the case of islands, total control because they control how good their troops are.

 

 

2 hours ago, HistoricalAccuracyMan said:

I like this idea. I would say that the pool of recruits for this marine force should either come directly from it's own "crew pool," or make it to where we have one "total pool" and then split that between "crew pool" and "marine infantry pool." (After all, the US Marines are technically a department of the US Navy).

Yes we are, just we jarheads love to remind the squids we are the Men's Department of the Navy, even if we need to be fed crayons   (Don't take this too serious, US Marines and US Navy have been poking fun at each other like this since inception)

[popcap200]

Yeah, I guess the basic idea would be adding an "add marines" button next to the "add crew" button on the fleet page.  They restock at port.  More ships up your chance of winning an invasion because you have more Marines to land.  Better tech gives better stats for them.  Overall I like the concept.  To start the marine training could be combined under naval training.

 

I definitely feel as though naval invasions and land battles feel very random and uninteractive in the current version.

[Abuse_Claws]

I think managing actual troops, their gear and tactics is a bit much for a naval strategy game. However, landing crafts are a part of every Navy and definitely under control of the admiral.

I would very much like a 'Landing Crafts' tab similar to the 'Submarines'  tab, along with a matching tech tree:

• Hulls: troop capacity, operational range, speed, mine resistance
• Armament (Guns & ASW equipment)
• Landing tactics: fire support efficiency (including not just LCs, but also fleet ships), max number of LCs in a fleet group

LC groups could be attached to regular TFs or moved independently. If intercepted by an enemy TF or subs, a 'Protect convoy' (if there are any actual fleet ships protecting the LCs) or 'Submarine defence' mission would be initiated, and those would actually have high stakes for the player, as the success of the invasion is very much dependent on how many troops actually make it to the landing zone

Also, LCs could take part in port strikes, where a small number of troops could be deployed to sabotage port infrastructure and provide intel for naval gunners, thus greatly improving damage to the port