Call to focus test "ships turning in circles" bug

[Hangar18]

Hey guys we all know about the bug where ships turn in circles at this point, but I think I noticed when and why it happens. However I'm just one guy, so some help trying to reproduce this bug would be appreciated. Especially those who enjoy the earlier time frames, which I have little experience with.

It seems to happen when ships think their spacing is off. So for instance when in formation and changing from tight to loose, the gap between ships needs to grow, and so the ai wants the ships to turn out to create that space, when that turn is initiated, it creates an issue for the ship behind it because now those are also too close.

The lead ship seems to want to correct the error by driving back towards the ships that have already turned out. But it's also at the same time trying to return to it's course whenever it finishes a loop. If it loops back, then the gap could be too close, which causes the ship behind it to redo it's loop, where the process starts over 

I suspect this happens with ships of a higher speed more often because the fastest way to fix the gap would be to turn out, along with the speed bled in turns, which could cause the second ship in line to become to close. Slower ships see that it would take them forever and so they just attempt to slow down.

This could be why large formations tend to explode when the game starts too.

Try slow, and fast ships, changing from tight to loose formation. Separately try turning hard enough to bleed (possibly tightening the formation at the same time).

 

Try to note mobility stats.

Top speed, decel, Accel, turn rate, turn radius, so on

Edited July 29, 2020 by Hangar18

[draconins]

I would test this on weekend, however I rarely changing from tight to loose or vice versa. And I can see this happen without changing tight to loose, and often this is on a "detached" ship, does not always to be in formation.

[Hangar18]

2 hours ago, draconins said:

I would test this on weekend, however I rarely changing from tight to loose or vice versa. And I can see this happen without changing tight to loose, and often this is on a "detached" ship, does not always to be in formation.

It doesnt need to be in formation if the ship is set to screen, which is iirc default. You dont need to have formation changes either, as i said, its the gap that seems to matter, which means a decel in a turn could also cause it. Changing formations just seemed to cause it to happen often on my end.

[Nick Thomadis]

This is a very well known issue, which we will definitely address.

[Hangar18]

7 hours ago, Nick Thomadis said:

This is a very well known issue, which we will definitely address.

I'm aware that you know of it, but i thought it wasn't known when or why it happens.

Do you know the cause? do i/we need to be testing to find the issue? or should our efforts be spent elsewhere.

[Nick Thomadis]

20 hours ago, Hangar18 said:

I'm aware that you know of it, but i thought it wasn't known when or why it happens.

Do you know the cause? do i/we need to be testing to find the issue? or should our efforts be spent elsewhere.

1) We already know that the evasion logic is not optimized, causing ships to come in small proximity to each other, and eventually create a chain reaction of repeated avoid maneuvers.

2) There is also the problem of the lead ship in a division becoming damaged and, in its effort to switch place in the formation, it makes a wide circle around the line, which can cause the evasion issue.

These two are considered the main reasons of the formation bugs. Anything else found, can be helpful.

 

[SturmGewehr]

The issue is line-astern formation is reactive, not predictive. This is a real problem, because every other formation type is based upon it.

You can get the same from a division of 5 fast DD's moving at flank. Just turn the lead DD left or right 90 degrees. What will happen?

DD2 will start closing on DD1, due to his turn. So, he slows down without changing course. Only when the range is correct again, will he speed up and change course, being dragged onto the new course by DD1 and now moving too slowly to ever catch up to him. This is reactive, not predictive.

DD3 will close rapidly on DD2 and, unable to avoid collision, will start turning circles. DD4 will do the same as DD3. DD5 may go into circles or he may actually just come to a complete stop.

Does this sound familiar?

With a predictive formation, you could turn DD1 at flank, and every DD behind would fall right into place, never breaking stride, like a lazy cat's tail.

And the change is so simple. Instead of waiting for the proper range to come to you (like slowing down), attack the proper range. So, in the case of DD1 and DD2, DD1 suddenly turns 90 degrees. DD2 is closing on DD1. For every meter that he is too close, he needs to aim his ship that many meters up the dotted line that connects the two. DD2 will start turning towards DD1 immediately. The closer DD2 gets, the farther up that line he will aim and the harder his turn will get. At some point, DD1 will be getting away from him again and DD2 will start reducing his turn, still aiming at the point on that line as it is now getting closer to him, until the point is his own bow. You will see that DD2 will follow DD1 perfectly and end up at the proper range while never reducing speed. Every DD behind him will do the same. It will be beautiful. Believe me.

You will need this if you ever want any formation control to work properly. I could help you with those too, but you have to do this one first.

[SturmGewehr]

Hi Nick.

Have you guys had a chance to try out Predictive Line-Astern Rule 1: What to do if too close to your lead ship (above)? I know it sounded counter-intuitive, but it really works. Did you like it?

If so, I can tell you about Rule 2: What to do if you are too far behind your lead ship. I can show you some interesting formation moves on that one.

Then you top that off with Rule 3: Speed Differential Modifiers, and line-astern will be really, really good.

Maybe too good. You might have to add a Difficulty Slider. 😄

Anyway, the game is gorgeous. Just gotta fix a few things. Once line-astern is fixed, I can show you how to do a lead ship change without telling him to actually turn 180. And that way, he can fit himself back into formation at the proper spot, without losing whatever speed he has left.

Cheers!

Edited August 7, 2020 by SturmGewehr