The Cheap AI Tactic - Turn and Run

[madham82]

Scenario Example: 1 on 1 engagement (but not exclusive)

Issue: In some Naval Academy missions (possibly in custom battles too) where the “enemy will not retreat” flag is not set, the AI after taking “unfavorable” damage will turn and run away.

This would be fine except these mission’s victory conditions require the sinking of the AI ship. This leads to one of two outcomes:

1. You lack the speed to catch the AI ship and most assuredly are unable to sink them
2. You do have the speed to overtake, but the AI will continuously steer in circles to keep stern on to your ship. Thereby minimizing hit chance and (with current damage modeling) and damage dealt. This usually leads to running out of time or shells.

Number 1’s issue I will come back to later. For now, let’s discuss number 2.  In this outcome, the player will be forced to chase the AI in closing circles at some point. The time it takes to do this will largely dependent on the speed advantage you have over the AI. In the end, you must approach to ridiculously close ranges to be able to hit and pen reliably enough to do more damage and slow the AI down. If you are lucky, you will get to destroy their rudder to prevent the circle chase.  If you are unlucky, he nails you while trying to get broadside, damaging you enough to lose all speed advantage.

Number 2’s issue is pretty straight forward. An enemy that retreats is not a victorious one. We aren’t talking a tactical retreat to gain better positioning, the AI simply runs in a straight line away from the player at flank speed. Time expires, resulting in a loss for the player to an enemy that decided to “give up the field of battle”.

 In conclusion, number 1 while realistic would never be considered a victory for the enemy that retreated. Number 2 is a completely unrealistic tactic, but makes sense in terms of the AI trying to protect itself based on the current damage modeling.

Proposed Solutions:

1. I have mentioned this before in other threads, but there should be “retreat” zones on each map (one for each AI and player). Ships entering these zones would be withdrawn from the battle. In a case of being the only ship on the map, that would mean that side is choosing to forfeit the battle. In the context of the scenarios I described at the beginning, this would mean victory for the player if the AI ran. This would also play directly in with the campaign, enabling the very realistic outcome that the enemy is driven off/friendlies able to break contact on the battle map.
2. AI programming needs to be tweaked, or damage model adjusted to make the stern more vulnerable. My thoughts on the damage model would be to make damage to the rudder/engines more likely in shots from this angle. No changes to the hit chance needed. As far as AI programming, if the AI does not possess a speed advantage to escape, it should be forced to fight. No real-world captain would ever think it a viable tactic to keep his weakly protected stern facing the enemy as they closed the range, or steam in circles while an enemy closed in. 

Thoughts/Suggestions?

Edited April 30, 2020 by madham82
updated title

[Shaftoe]

I completely agree. This is a massive problem that prevents fair victories on part of players. If the AI has fled, then player clearly should be considered victorious. Otherwise, there will be stupid purely technical mission failures, which will lead to a lot of frustration and complaints in the future. The game must be fun. Losing due to a timer or some other technicallity when you almost have won is not fun.

[Alcar]

I get the frustration, and the stern damage problem has been thoroughly discussed as a known issue. Certainly needs a fix of some sort.

As for ships fleeing, that is simply part of the challenges of the Academy missions. Some are victories if the enemy flees. Others specifically task you with building a ship that can prevent this.. As I completed all of the missions, I often found that there was a shortcut by simply making ships with minimum range and speed but massive firepower and durability. These ships would have minimal utility in the campaign, so sometimes you need a faster ship!

In real life many engagements ended by one side declining battle and exiting.

[Norbert Sattler]

In real life crews wouldn't stubbornly try to drive away from a ship that they can't beat but can't outrun either. They'd make a last stand and go down swinging or give up either surrendering or denying the enemy the chance to capture the ship or valuable intelligence by sinking their own ship, i.e. scuttling.

It'd be nice if the game represented that by at least having the enemy give up their attempts to flee if they are slower than their chasers or give up the fight by scuttling or surrendering. Especially in the campaign this should be the case.

The capture and prevention of capture of codebooks and coding devices like the Enigma have always played a role in naval warfare, ever since encryption was adopted for warships communications (or ship communications in general), so it'd be nice to have it tied into at least the campaign in some way.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Norbert Sattler

[madham82]

17 hours ago, Alcar said:

I get the frustration, and the stern damage problem has been thoroughly discussed as a known issue. Certainly needs a fix of some sort.

As for ships fleeing, that is simply part of the challenges of the Academy missions. Some are victories if the enemy flees. Others specifically task you with building a ship that can prevent this.. As I completed all of the missions, I often found that there was a shortcut by simply making ships with minimum range and speed but massive firepower and durability. These ships would have minimal utility in the campaign, so sometimes you need a faster ship!

In real life many engagements ended by one side declining battle and exiting.

Yea bow and stern damage models are facing similar issues. I know there are some tweaks coming in the next patch, so will have to revisit. 

I understand trying to make a mission challenging, but at the same time the AI is behaving in a manner not consistent with any naval tactic. I have watched countless times after just a couple of good hits, the AI BB/BC completely turn around and leave the rest of their fleet. The AI is not seriously damaged and still a threat, especially with it's combined fleet. It would be one thing if it was withdrawing to break contact and re-engage at a better time/position. But that isn't the case, it runs the entire time away from the player on map with no boundaries. If there is no retreat zone, what purpose does this behavior serve other than to try and ensure player loses due to time constraints? Can you imagine an admiral telling his entire fleet, "Look that one enemy BB really hit us, so we are out of here. Hope you guys fair better!" That's essentially what the AI is doing in these situations. 

In real life, anyone who declined battle and left the area lost the battle. 

[Alcar]

16 minutes ago, madham82 said:

Yea bow and stern damage models are facing similar issues. I know there are some tweaks coming in the next patch, so will have to revisit. 

I understand trying to make a mission challenging, but at the same time the AI is behaving in a manner not consistent with any naval tactic. I have watched countless times after just a couple of good hits, the AI BB/BC completely turn around and leave the rest of their fleet. The AI is not seriously damaged and still a threat, especially with it's combined fleet. It would be one thing if it was withdrawing to break contact and re-engage at a better time/position. But that isn't the case, it runs the entire time away from the player on map with no boundaries. If there is no retreat zone, what purpose does this behavior serve other than to try and ensure player loses due to time constraints? Can you imagine an admiral telling his entire fleet, "Look that one enemy BB really hit us, so we are out of here. Hope you guys fair better!" That's essentially what the AI is doing in these situations. 

In real life, anyone who declined battle and left the area lost the battle. 

You are right, that AI behavior is pretty odd, leaving the smaller ships behind. Perhaps we can explain it away in that the capital ship is worth so much that the enemy admiral wants to preserve it at all costs. Coincidentally I was just reading last night about the Italian battleship Vittorio Veneto effectively leaving its cruisers behind to be slaughtered by British battleships, but in their defense, they didn't know the strength of the British force.

I'm confident that in a campaign setting that outcome would be a win for the player, forcing the enemy to flee.