Ship to Ship Musketry Simulation

[Jan van Santen]

The 68 pdr carronade on the forecastle of the Victory at close range used a grapeshot canister of 500 Musket Balls on top of a cannon ball.

 

https://books.google.de/books?id=Ia2dCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA74&lpg=PA74&dq=68+pdr+carronade+canister&source=bl&ots=7FsMf59Aem&sig=p4uT4CRmE9HniW9S4t_8DIaBQbY&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwinlIXKmLLPAhXFFSwKHSInAWIQ6AEITDAF

 

As grapeshot musket balls -correctly- do a lot of damage to a crew in NA. 

So why do the musket balls of the Marines no damage at close range ?

 

+1 to the suggestion of the OP

Edited September 28, 2016 by Jan van Santen

[akd]

Grapeshot is a cluster of sub-caliber, iron cannonballs, often 9x. So 32pdr grapeshot is typically 9x 3pd shot.

Canister is a container of large numbers of lead musket balls.

[Jan van Santen]

Grapeshot is a cluster of sub-caliber, iron cannonballs, often 9x. So 32pdr grapeshot is typically 9x 3pd shot.

Canister is a container of large numbers of lead musket balls.

 

Not really. The word "Grapeshot " is used in both cases. 

I suggest you read what I quoted......

 

.....During the battle of Trafalgar(1805) HMS Victory loaded her two 68-pdr carronades with grapeshot, and fired them repeatedly through the stern windows of the French warship Bucentaure. As each grapeshot canister contained 500 musket balls, each shot was equivalent to a full volley of a battalion of infantry.

 

Or this:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grapeshot

In artillery, grapeshot is a type of shot that is not one solid element, but a mass of small metal balls or slugs packed tightly into a canvas bag.^[1] It was used both in land and naval warfare.

Edited September 28, 2016 by Jan van Santen

[maturin]

So you base your reasoning on Wikipedia and sloppy nomenclature from an uncited secondary source?

 

The distinction between (naval) grapeshot and canister is not up for debate.

[Jan van Santen]

 sloppy nomenclature from an uncited secondary source?

 

The distinction between (naval) grapeshot and canister is not up for debate.

 

unquoted ? in artillery terms: that just backfired....I suggest you read post #29.

as to "sloppy" adress the author of the -quoted - source pls.

 

this thread -and my posts- btw aren't about semantics but about the effect of musket balls in naval warfare around 1800.

Edited September 28, 2016 by Jan van Santen

[maturin]

 

 

as to "sloppy" adress the author of the -quoted - source pls.

The book is literally titled 'miscellany.'

 

In other words, the author is guaranteed not to be an expert in the vast majority of subjects he's writing about.

 

Slips of the pen in non-definitive texts that conflict with common knowledge do not need to be exhaustively refuted.

 

As with shrapnel vs. fragmentation, grape and canister/case shot are quite different things, but many people don't particularly care. In a non-technical context, confusing these terms is not a grave offense.

[Jan van Santen]

Grapeshot IS different than Canister shot......

I posted pictures in another thread showing the difference.   It is often confused and called one or the other, but it that is incorrect.

 

Right next to my PC there is a piece of oak from HMS Victory which actually was in Trafalgar*....it tells me, that William Wilmot, the bosun of HMS Victory did load a bag with 500 musket balls, available as standard ammo for his 68 pdr carronade (whatever you guys call that type of ammo) on top of a ball and shot that thru the stern windows of Buccentaure at Trafalgar.

 

 

NA has just 3 types of ammo, so we have to assume that bar shot = chain shot  and cannister/ball = grape in this game, same as some authors simplify ammo types.

 

However:  musket balls and other small arms used by marines/seamen in NA only do damage in boarding but not at close range, which historically is incorrect.

Just check what Redoutable did to Victory with small arms at Trafalgar.

 

 

* you could buy them in the 1970's, when I first visited HMS Victory. It's not availabke anymore but you can still buy some naval history books there, which will tell you about the HMS Victory vs Buccentaure and HMS Victory vs Redoutable  

Edited September 28, 2016 by Jan van Santen

[maturin]

Grape is grape and doubleshot is doubleshot.

 

NA does not include such ammo types as canister/case shot, bar shot, star shot, langridge, stone shot, heated shot, exploding shot, etc.

[blakdog]

uhh.. guys?  Wasn't this about ship to ship musketry? 

(admittedly, I love the historic detail.  I never saw grapeshot/cannister shot photos like these pics before  )

Edited October 2, 2016 by blakdog

[Wesreidau]

I authorize discussion of anything to keep this post on the first page. 

 

Am I reading the Admin's post correctly that this has been coded up and tried, but doesn't quite connect in the head? If so, are the effects for musketry fire in, with somewhat directional puffs of sparks in the smoke, sound effects, musket balls whining over the deck, etc? It sounds like this is a problem with effects and sound design, although seeing no footage I can't be certain. Musket balls impacting the deck around you would also telegraph incoming fire. Animated marines at firing points pivoting on their boots and shooting like tin soldiers sounds nice too, but synching them to shots will be hard. A dozen marines constantly working their ramrods at firing points, with puffs of smoke on the game's cue, also works.

 

I think some people are already seeing the tactical advantages of muskets for big ships fighting small, as close-in stern raking becomes hazardous for one's health. Sitting your frigate off a SOL's stern far enough to weather the musketry while still close enough to stay out of the guns will raise the skill needed for this tactic.

 

Others are commenting on how marine stacking becomes even more dangerous, and the sailor to marine proportion is ridiculous. Well, this is true even before these changes. However stacking crews with marines puts more crew on the exposed deck and fighting tops, making them more vulnerable to grapeshot in return. I really wouldn't want to see a boarding prepped ship get its weather deck swept by grape, unless it were French, naturally

 

I hope everyone noticed the OP suggested each musket ball be simulated individually, so the 'RNG' element of this is whatever 'cone of fire' the musket ball deviates in, and what physical obstacles get in the way. I expect to see the masts and various bits of rigging pockmarked to death.

 

Anyone else wish individual grapeshot were plotted, rather than our current eerily coherent shotgun pattern? Blasting grape should foam the waves.

[Wesreidau]

Well the devs have been asking about ship to ship musketry, specifically if we want historical and possibly uninteresting musketry, or effective and possibly broken musketry. I consider this a false dilemma; give us historically effective musketry, see how players manage to upgrade and game it into being effective, and tweak it only if a deliberate musketry build can't be useful.

[Wesreidau]

Average community rating on this thread was a 5/5. Huh.

[Wesreidau]

So there's a widespread spirit of broad and sweeping changes to the game. Will ship to ship musketry be included in these changes?