Ryan21

You reef the spritsail diagonally in nasty weather so the lower or lee side doesnt drag in the ocean. Its pretty neat, Lady Washington had a tiny spritsail but still had the diagonal reef bands. http://static.squarespace.com/static/52014f90e4b0ebb2d2a8c420/t/52d55166e4b077750334f044/1389711720094/

In the wind condition of your video (approximately Beaufort twelve, above 64 knots) a ship would simply run before the wind and ride it out, or heave to and stop the ship and wait for the system to pass. Unless a wave broke on the stern of your ship the force was much less than what this modern ship is enduring by pounding straight into it with the motor. Wooden ships can take a surprising pounding. As the weather increases and you are sailing close hauled to reach your destination there comes a point where you can no longer make way close hauled and you must turn and run before the wind with as much sail as possible to avoid waves breaking over the stern, this is called scudding. With good sail management and early reefing a stout frigate could survive most beaufort wind conditions, it rarely happened that a ships hull was "destroyed" as they were quite strong, and the timbers actually flexed. Ships would be truly destroyed by rocks or shoals mostly. Sinking in open sea storm conditions was usually cause by downflooding, more water coming in than could be pumped out, or gunports sealing improperly causing flooding. Broaching or capsizing was a huge concern in storms, you couldn't sail on a beam reach in a full storm because you would very soon broach, so provided you can keep the ship running before the sea, or broad reaching at least, these ships stood up to alot. These ships were developed over hundreds of years of trial and error and by this point in history were very strong, and with good sail management could ride out just about any weather condition. So providing you kept your ship upright and pumped more water out than was coming in, you would generally come out of it ok. These ships could also heave to, to stop and ride out severe storms, there were many different tactics, but generally unless a ship was old and rotten it didnt simply fall apart. if your sail management was poor it could have dire consequences, or if a squall hit quickly before you could take in sail, losing masts or mast sections drastically affected your ships stability, and any mast lost doesnt just go away, it hangs in the sea, and the bigger the mast the more drag it will create. Many ships foundered by losing a mast and not cutting it away quick enough, the resultant drag slowed the ship down and made her unmanueverable and she would be swamped by huge following seas. In figure 490 you can see what scudding looks like, this is what would have been done in the video you showed. It was very dangerous, and if you let her get slightly off course you could be brought by the lee, which is what is happening in the top figure. https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/t1/1655862_10153848913120123_2006776638_n.jpg Captain Bligh of the bounty attempting to round Cape Horn experienced the inability to make close hauled progress, in around 30 days he made something in the nature of 80 miles of progress, and there were times where he had to turn and run because the sea became too great to sail close hauled. Check this out.

I think it should be a priority that visibility is severely limited in some storms, there should be different storm types. Some hard gales will happen and it will be clear with good visibility and no moisture in the air. And sometimes in a nasty storm the sea just looks like whipped white smoke with very little visibility, with rain, sleet and snow. Heres a really good example. There should also be increased turbulence in the water around the vessel, more wake, more froth going down the sides, and more spray and bow wave. There are a couple good examples in history of single ships of the line being attacked by frigates usually only in heavier weather, when the ship of the line had to keep it's lower gunports closed and was also a poorer sailor especially in heavy weather where a nimble lighter frigate with her main battery above the waterline could run circles around her and pick away. Look at Captain Sir Edward Pellew's action with the Droits de l'Homme. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_of_13_January_1797

In my mind there should be no reason for these actions in the game to always drift down wind. If the ships can brace the yards as I've seen and can sail on a beam reach, 90 degrees to the wind, and not make unrealisticly large amounts of leeway these engagements should not always end up to leeward. For example the Lee gauge ship merely sails along on a beam reach pounding the ship that is bearing down to windward, and the windward ship either ends up destroyed or passes by trying for a stern shot, and the lee ship becomes the windward ship and starts firing the opposite side. Or both ships could be sailing along on a beam reach or even close hauled next to eachother duking it out broadside to broadside. How much leeway is currently programmed into the game? Even in Empire total war I always endeavor to engage the enemy as close as possible, usually if your running downwind you are either trying to escape or give yourself some room to re adjust your tactics before attacking again. Even though alot of things make no historical sense in empire I have been able to use Nelsonic Era fleet tactics to make an absolute mess of the opposing fleet.

You can back the headsails during stack if the tack is going really slow and your worried about missing the tack, the Spanker either gets hauled right center or to windward during a tack to really kick the stern around and push the bow through irons.

You could throw guns overboard but you would have too throw them equally off both sides or you run the risk of destabilizing. You certainly never un notch? The masts when sailing, the masts always stay firmly locked in place. The last one is correct though, in some situations she can be pressed down and heeling to much, and not making good way for the wind condition, sail trim is very important. Also throwing things overboard would probably help you more in lighter winds, in a decent wind, with the correct sail set a ship is limited by its hull speed, a displacement hull creates a wave that the ship is always in. The trough of, depending on hull length and bow shape the wave is longer or shorter, so little speedboats go really fast by overcoming their bow wave and climbing onto a plane. Sailing ships can't do that unless they are surfing down large swells in a gale or storm so they will only go as fast as that wave created by their hull, the longer and sleeker the hull the faster they can go. Lady washing tons hull speed is about nine knots, so if I'm going along at 9 knots with all sail set and I start to throw things overboard she won't go any faster, because she is limited by her hull size and shape, Niagaras hull speed is about 15, most decent sized frigates were about. 12 to 14.

On a side note here, check out facebook, Naval action has posted videos! the graphics look amazing!! I'd like to see the yard bracing animation though. And sail setting. This game is going to be phenomenal.

Most sail training ships these days use synthetic running and standing rigging and sails, usually a synthetic that replicates the look and feel of hemp, but lasts 9x longer because it doesnt rot. Most of the sail training tallships are run by non profit organizations and simply would not still be afloat if they had to replace all the ships hemp and manila lines every year. There are a couple exceptions, Niagara has all natural manila running rigging, and the Swedish ship Gotheborg and French frigate Hermione are 100 percent natural fiber rig and sails. the change in material in the sails and lines doesnt affect how the vessels tack, it just prevents rot. all traditional rigging practices are usually followed depending on vessel. What affects tacking is the same as its always been, sail area, sail plan, hull shape, and hull length. It certainly would have been a careful procedure to tack a great whomping first rate, if you called the braces at the wrong time it would be a big screwup because the sails are so huge, you wouldnt get away with a slightly botched tack like you might on a vessel with smaller lighter rig. Also the heavier the weather, the less sail you are carrying, so when tacking, you dont man all the braces as in light weather, if you just have close reefed topsails up, the topsail and course braces are the only ones that need to be manned, the higher yards not in use do not get braced usually they stay square. So you can allocate more men to the difficult job of bringing the topsail and course braces around. Tacking is definately a technical procedure but it was a standard procedure, and should not have ever been a problem under mild to fresh gale circumstances. In the event the ship could no longer make headway close hauled then the ware was the best option, but you also lose a lot of ground in a ware. All of the spars, yards, gaffs and booms, and masts, of the vessels I have sailed on are solid douglas fir spars, made to the correct historical dimensions, the masts are in in three sections in the earlier era, lower, top, and topgallant masts. More popular in later era especially with schooners was just a lower and a topmast. I have lots of pictures of Lady Washingtons rigging, she was rigged almost entirely out of the pages of "the young sea officers sheet anchor" which was a book published in the early 1800's as a guide to the fitting out and rigging of ships of war in the British Navy for young officers. Have a look at my flikr account, look at the detail shots, all rope stropped blocks, that have had the strops wormed, parcelled, and served, standing rigging is line not wire, all sorts of different served rope strops for various purposes. The picture is of a topsail clew block that I made a new strop for, in the traditional manner, wormed, parcelled, and served with strong tarred twine. The stopper knot at the end gets fitted into the bight of sail called the clew. http://www.flickr.com/photos/116121315@N07/12260047774/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/116121315@N07/

Also angle of heel would be a good addition, as a ship close up against the wind will heel noticeably more than a ship sailing off the wind, especially in gnarly weather.

Speed of the ship needs to be proportional to wind force, that's the most important thing, it affects maneuvers in a huge way, realistic ship speeds also adversely affect fighting tactics. This is why empire basically feels like a motorboat game. You can sail directly against the wind, albeit slowly, and there are no defined points of sail, I try to put a ship on a beam reach which is 90 degrees to the wind, the square sails get pulled in for some reason and I slow down?? The same when close hauled. And under sail the ships look like they are travelling at 45 mph, these are the main issues. Graphics while cool are not that important to me, I would be happy if someone made a game with empire graphics and accurate wind, ship speed and proper maneuvers. Because currently no game on the market actually even begins to simulate actual sailing combat.

On a smaller brig like lady in moderate wind we usually tack in under a minute, as already pointed out bigger ships can take longer depending on wind, mostly depends on the wind. In 25 knots a frigate should not take a long time to tack. The star of India video is very good! Very very light winds!

thanks Brigand, haha, I took these clips so everyone could enjoy sailing ships Seriously though that Tres Hombres in the last video, is a sweet little ship, She delivers rum and chocolate on the old Atlantic trade route to south America and the Caribbean and she has no engine at all, they call it carbon free transport! Im trying to get a job on her for next year!

Your guy who was "foaming at the mouth" arguing that sailing ships don't make any wake, has no idea what he's talking about and has clearly never sailed on one, Big ship charging through the water at 10 knots creates a lot of turbulence around it, simple as that, doesn't matter whats pushing it. That's whats so funny about the internet. People will argue you to the death on a topic that they have no idea about, never experienced, and never actually studied. This is probably one of the main reasons alot of the age of sail games are such utter failures. Being at sea without the internet is such a relief sometimes.. I will say that the animated bow wave on the ship on the previous page is the wrong shape, to me it looks like a tug boat bow wave.

Still dont believe me? Heres a cargo running Brigantine called Tres Hombres that has absolutely NO Engine and is doing about 10 knots

This is what a sailing ship wake looks like. If you really don't believe me I have no reason to be on this forum. You can see a little bit of a trail in the middle, this is from the non moving propeller creating drag through the water, engines off. Doing 10+ knots, there is wake, and there is usually major bow wave. Lynx, Niagara, and the Swift are fast as all hell.

Of course I am sure, this is what I did for over a year!!! None of these vessels had their engine on in these videos!! Seriously... Why would I even post them.. We sail the hell out of these ships. I would never take a video up aloft to watch us MOTOR There is a wake, but it doesnt really create large waves like the animation, its just a long smooth patch behind the ship with foam on the edges. Read some more about these ships in heavy weather and you will find descriptions from Captains talking about the ship throwing up a frothing 10-15 foot bow wave and sending foam flying back aft as far as the quarterdeck. Sailing these vessels is a matter of pride for us, we do not try to fake sailing, all of the vessels I have shown are capable at travelling at higher speeds under sail in the right conditions than under motor. Lady Washington will only motor about 7 knots in a flat calm, but she has been sailed well over 11 in a gale, Niagara Regularily cruises under sail averaging 6-10 knots, and has a hull speed of 14-15 knots. I aplogize in advance for being so prickly about this but we get people coming on tours of the ship all the time that say things like "you dont actually sail this thing right" or "you always have the engine on right" or my personal favourite.. " you guys dont actually take that thing out on the ocean do you? I thought it was just a tourist attraction for people at the dock" I'm going to let you in on something. In the modern world, the most magical part of sailing a tallship is when you get sail set and the captain turns the motor off, all the noise stops at once, and its just the sea, just the wind, just that hissing of water down the side. 200 tons of wood being propelled by nothing but the wind! Heaven for me!

She still has 4 carronades onboard, her ballast would be different with the full load of carronades, but she wouldn't become a slug, it would hamper her a bit but she still has a clipper bow and huge sail area to hull ratio, her bow type was not characteristic of her time period at all. She would have easily outsailed any vessel of similar size with the typical bluff bow of the period in light to moderate wind. Also, consider this. The modern Niagara Has Twin caterpillar diesel engines, gearboxes, two large propeller shafts, Thick watertight non removable bulkheads with heavy steel watertight doors, freezer, Radar, GPS, over 60 neoprene immersion suits stored in the hammock rails, over 60 lifejackets, man overboard recovery equipment.. The list goes on, and on top of all the extra weight provided by these things the two large propeller shafts create drag when the ship is under sail. So to be honest, the original Niagara with all of her guns probably performed almost exactly like the modern one.

Niagara is an absolute GEM, and honestly she should be in this game. Her sailing qualities absolutely shocked me. In a barely noticeable wind she wind still make way, with scarcely a ripple on the water, and about 15 knots of wind gusting to 18 she will tear along at 8-10 knots, close hauled! She scarcely seems to lose any speed closed hauled. She has a very sharp bow, and a HUGE rig for her hull size. Exceptional performer in lighter weather, tacks in the blink of an eye, I cannot stress how sweet a sailor she is enough. And with 18 32 pounder carronades an 2 12 pound long guns she packed more weight in Iron than most 6th rate frigates, and in close action she could give just about anything a swift pounding. She is truly a beautiful Vessel in every aspect. She is 198' sparred 30' beam over 120' tall total sail area is approximately 14000 square feet I will never forget my time serving in her.

This is true, they were often undermanned, not always, but it was a problem. But sailing stations were still only abandoned in the gravest of situations because of the strategic importance of maneuvering the ship. If the ship lost its ability to sail, the battle was usually won in short order.

I have seen Niagara point as high as 55 degrees and make excellent way with her clipper bow, and lady usually points about 65 I believe the average for ships of that era was between 65 and 70. Tacking and waring in succesion was common practice, mostly on blockade but also in combat, of course individual handling characteristics needed to be taken into account, some ships would have to slow down there maneuver to allow others time to catch up. There are many examples of this in david steeles theory and practice of seamanship and Naval tactics. Of course as vessels would be dismasted and take damage the line would become imperfect but that is the natural course of battle. As long as the wind is fair and the ships are decently manned, squadron maneuvers are an excellent way to focus your broadside into an enemy line, or to break his line with yours. As far as im concerned the wind is supreme lord and dictator to every sailing ship on the sea, I know that may not be the case in the game, but its realism really should be the defining factor of the game, otherwise we are just playing WW2 battleships with less sophisticated projectiles and pretty sails. His Majesties Royal Navy were very well practiced at squadron maneuvering because of there many years of blockade duty. They had real experience maneuvering their ships in formation, because they did it regularly. The Franco Spanish fleet at Trafalgar was in a much poorer state of practice because they were simply bottled up in the harbor while Nelson's squadrons tacked and wore back and forth, waiting for them to come out. No sea time for practice for the French and Spanish in that instance. Once and a while a gale would blow up and blow the RN off station and a ship or two would escape but for the most part that fleet was seriously hampered by the Brits, unable to practice live gun drill too, major factor in the battle.

I noticed a couple blatantly false statements near the beginning of this thread that really need to be clarified. For one thing, in the manning of ships of war, there were enough men on board to man every gun and every sailing station PLUS a percentage of men that varied by ship that were idler's or landsmen, that could be brought to haul a line or replace a fallen man at a gun immediately. Look at the complement of a first rate, 950+ men! for instance, on the US Brig Niagara, the modern crew is comprised of 50 because the ship is just sailed, not fought, 50 men to sail her, her original complement was upwards of 100, so that each gun, pump, and sail station could be manned at once + a compliment of marines. A ship like Victory could be sailed by a fraction of her 950+ compliment. The notion that ships did not tack or maneuver during battle is absolutely false. Entire squadrons could tack and ware ship IN LINE and maintain their position, in blockade and during action depending on how the action was fought. On a warship gun crews were assigned, and every sailor on board who was not manning a gun had a sailing station to man during any sail maneuvers during battle and otherwise. Also, there is no need for any seaman to go aloft during Maneuvers of any kind, tacking included. All evolutions except furling and loosing sail are carried out from deck, by braces and other lines. Let me clarify, when sails are furled it means they have been clewed and bunted up by there gear, and the seaman manually furl the sail tightly and tie it with lines called gaskets, this is not done in battle. Without furling the sails, windage can be very quickly reduced by clewing a sail up by its gear, this is not proper sail dousing procedure for everyday practice but in battle any square can be partially taken in by casting off its sheets and hauling clewlines and buntlines, nearly completely spilling the wind from it. If anyone needs any evidence of this just look at my youtube page, scroll through the videos, there are a couple that feature tacking. No men were removed from there sail stations to work the guns unless the ships were close alongside and in a hammering match, broadside to broadside, as men would die they would need to be replaced at the guns. But during manuevering men never left there sail stations under normal conditions. Some of the greatest frigate actions in history were very well documented. All you have to do is look them up. Johny has already referenced a couple. Also, the Lee gauge, as opposed to the weather gage actually had some excellent advantages, which in some situations but not all could turn the tide of the battle against the ship with the weather behind him. One of these being sailing on a beam reach, with the wind 90 degrees to the ship, your entire broadside is presented to the ship to windward, while only his chasers can fire. So if your gunnery is determined you can wreck him or dismast him from a relatively stable sailing position with perfect firing angle for your main battery of guns as he is sailing towards you to engage. Winning these ship engagements was not determined by a formula of X+Y=defeat, it was determined by brave steadfast officers and men who were well practiced in maneuvering their ship and firing their guns at a higher rate and more accurately than the opposing vessel. One more thing, tacking if a skilled crew is onboard is not an unreliable process, the 200 foot US Brig Niagara tacks like a ferrari takes a corner on a road course. We never missed stays, not a single time. On Niagara and Lady Washington, in a variety of weather conditions. And Lady Washington has a very Blunt bow, never seen her fail a tack, and we have tacked her through 35 knots. To understand this process in detail refer to seamanship in the age of sail, the rudder is simply nudging the ship in the right direction, the sails being full and then thrown aback provide the rotational power to bring her through stays. The hardest tacking is at both ends of the spectrum, extremely light wind and extreme sea state.

Yes that was the first trip of the season. Niagara gets meticulously down rigged every season down to lower mast sections, and every one of her mast sections, yards, boom, gaff, sails, comes down.. Everything is organized carefully in the erie maritime museum rigging shop, labeled, put on pallets, and the spars on racks, and tucked away to be ready for next season. Some of the spars get worked on in the shop during the winter as well as various articles of rigging. It is a very large undertaking and its completion in a timely manner each year is a feat of seamanship seldom seen in the modern world.

That is phenomenal. Sailing ships can have very large bow waves. Especially if they are being pushed hard and have a less than modern bow shape. Here are a couple of going fast. Niagara especially throws out quite a bow wave when shes flying, both the Swift and Niagara in this video are doing 9-10 knots. In fact Niagara has a very sharp clipper bow, most of the warships from this era had a much more round bow and threw out more bow wave because of the blunt mass smashing through the sea at 10-14 knots. The animation itself is good but the shape of the bow wave is a little off base for sailing ships, it sort of makes it look to much like a solid mass.

Even if the animation is not detailed at all, there should be consequences for carrying too much sail, every time I play Empire total war it frustrates me especially because of this. Will increased wind speed affect ship speed at all base on sail set? I know its not going to be a simulation but I think many people would agree with me that if you can just set everything to the sky and sail through a gale with no repercussions the game would lose much of it's appeal.