LapuLapuStoleMyBoat

USS Constellation 1797 2nd class "36 gun frigate" 28 x 18lb long guns or 28 x 24lb 20 x 32lb carronades Broadside weight of 656 imperial pounds Chappell's plans and drawings can be ordered at the Smithsonian (http://americanhistory.si.edu/about/departments/work-and-industry/ship-plans) Some ship modelers seem to have the full collection in this thread (http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/4840-uss-constellationcongress-plans-1812/) Coined by the French as the "Yankee Race Horse" for her speed she distinguished herself in battle during the Quasi War defeating L'Insurgente and La Vengeance. Captain Pitot of the La Vengeance is sometimes criticized for loosing against the 'lighter Constellation' and for claiming that the lighter Constellation was a heavier American frigate, but upon closer inspection of the battle Pitot's claim was indeed correct, Constellation was up gunned to 24lb long guns and 32 lb carronades, which places the Constellation's broadside above that of the La Vengeance. In comparison to her sister ship the USS Congress had an armament of 28 x 18lb and 12 x 9lb (later up-gunned as the Constellation) her broadside was indeed well above than what was initially expected.

Interesting. I was given the impression that it needed to be stricter than this, pedigree and all. Makes sense it solves a lot of problems, though it might rub the salty dogs the wrong way.

You mean like the Constitution ones.

I prefer it as you do real as they can be, but the devs have compromised in some cases which is fine as at the end of the day it is just a game and inclusion is better than the contrary .

Indeed, and I find it a logical one. Even if it was free-form I still see no reason as to why not have American ships-of-the-line, if they can have Constitution be balanced (and they have balanced it, else' they'd have as good of an immunity to some rounds as a Victory at certain ranges) then I'm pretty sure they can do the same to the Independence. My opinion is that you stop selling yourself short, the United States Navy did have fantastic heavy frigate, very true, but they did also have fantastic ships-of-the-line, though not as numerous as the other nations quality was indeed on their side.

As I've pointed out, a lack of counter for the US Navy in the case of omission of their own ships-of-the-line is an even worse balancing problem, if they are not omitted they can at least be made balanced, whereas it is impossible to have balance in the case of omission. I hope that has made it abundantly clear.

Well, let us analyze your 'reasoning' shall we, I believe some of your 'points' has already been addressed in my previous post, therefor I won't repeat myself (at least I will try not to). "Therefore you are out of the timeframe to be considered without really good reasoning" - Ishigami "Furthermore why extend the timeframe when you only would bring in imbalance?" - Ishigami Nonsense, first of all we already have the USS Lynx (1814), an American schooner launched the same year as the ship-of-the-line the USS Independence (The Independence was actually in action in the Barbary coast in 1814-1815, whilst the Lynx stuck at port/dry-dock) and of course the HMS Trincomalee (1817) very clear precedence that proves you incredibly wrong. Balance is indeed something to be to be considered, if the US is to be a nation in the upcoming open world (by all evidence it seems that it will be, noting the amount of American ships being tested currently.) it would require ships-of-the-line to counter the other nation's, well, ships-of-the-line. As an example given in my previous post "...it would be illogical to see, say, a Victory or the Nelson in the open world blockading US ports without an Independence to carry out defense.", which is a perfectly legitimate concern and a reason good enough (not that it requires any more reasons as it stands, as it is well within the time line the devs seems to be going by, noting the Lynx.) to warrant the inclusion of the Independence. "USS Independence in a historical setup would carry more firepower to the line than many first rates, especially the ones in game atm. Having such a ship would make other options obsolete unless you bring in more modern ships or unrealistic setups. We simply don’t want to open this can of worms." - Ishigami It is indeed a superior ship, so? No one's arguing against the release of the HMS St Lawrence or even the HMS Nelson (1814), though it is still in my opinion that the Independence is the superior vessel, just as the Constitution (1794) is in many ways superior to the Trincomalee and for that matter most if not all frigates it will come across to, it is not a deal breaker, just as it wasn't a deal breaker when they deemed it reasonable to have the Constitution and even the Trincomalee in the game. Note that It is easier to balance a powerful vessel, like the Constitution and/or the Independence through economic ways (cost, time to build ect.), than to try and balance the US Navy in the open world without ships-of-the-line, going by the opinion of some that said vessels would be too bowel inducing for them to face. As previously made clear, it would actually be more imbalanced not to have said American ships-of-the-line for the simple fact that in situations which requires another ship-of-the-line the US Navy would then be SOL (pun intended) and dead on the spot without ships-of-the-line of their own, because one deemed their ships to be 'not worth implementing'. "Then the US SoLs are artistically not very appealing. Yes very practically and strong build but they are wooden bathtubs with their super straight decks and sides, almost not existing decorations, boring sterns and black and white colour scheme." - Ishigami I find them handsome, does that then mean your opinions becomes invalid? Irrelevant points. "You are also wrong about US dominance of technology as mentioned again in this very topic: HMS St Lawrence of 1814. It used similar hull and had a very heavy broadside for its time." - Ishigami Comparable in some cases, I peg the Independence to be better with her uniformed armament and live oak , but she looks like a decent vessel and I have no qualms for such ships to be included as it is well within the timeline. "Last but not least as I already said it is about allocation of resources for Game Labs and I rather have them work on ships that benefit the game right off the bat instead of ones that might at first break it.." - Ishigami It is becoming apparent to me that this has absolutely nothing to do with limited resources, nor what may or may not be beneficial to the game, as I have made it logically clear that the inclusion of American ships-of-the-line is actually important for the overall game balance, thus I again make it profoundly clear that there is absolutely no reasons for them not to be considered by Game Labs.

Pardon? As stated: The time line gives way to all Independence class vessels, and most Delaware class vessels the only ship that this leaves out is the Pennsylvania, in practicality most American SoL are indeed compatible with 1820 +/- 5 hard cap of 1830.

One does not have to go beyond logic to justify the existence of American ships-of-the-line, if the United States Navy is to be represented and represented well in the open world within the time lines given of xxxx -1820/1830 +/- 5, which by all evidence seems that this be the case. Then it would be simply logical to see ships-of-the-line of the United States Navy within those given time lines. If the wishes of the community and the goal of NA is to be as comprehensive as possible then it would be prudent that the United States Navy of that time, be at the very least given the ships that they had for historical and even game balance purposes as it would be illogical to see, say, a Victory or the Nelson in the open world blockading US ports without an Independence to carry out defense. To say that American ships-of-the-line did absolutely nothing and were not distinguished enough to be given even a glance is reprehensible (one should do more research). For one they were important deterrence against the British in the post 1812 world and they were very successful in just doing that. Also, the propensity for excellence building ships with thicker hulls, bigger guns and better sailing qualities gave the fledgling nation a great amount of renown, and more importantly a culture of naval excellence that carries to this very day. All that said I do actually look forward more for the lighter American ships like the Constellation, an excellent little frigate that carried a similar load out to the Constitution, and I do whole heartily agree that American frigates be given priorities over SoLs. However, I also believe that it is intellectually reprehensible to insinuate 'ignoring' one or more vessels in the American fleet during the time line given for seemingly arbitrary reasons, which were very few ships in comparison to begin with. Yes, It is OK to want Danish and Swedish ships in the game, it is not however OK to insinuate cutting a whole class of American vessels in favour of, say, Danish vessels, with ignorant, half-baked reasoning that leaves much to be desired.

As far as ships-of-the-line I'd like to see Independence both razeed and non razeed, USS North Carolina 1820 (Sister ship of the Ohio, I'm not totally sure but I believe she had more 42lbers) (Also, if searching for Ohio/NC plans search for "Delaware class ship of the line") They are all within the time frame in a game with an established precedence of releasing ships that were never used in battle. Frankly, the reasons given as to why not have these ships be available in-game ranges from not at all objective to totally arbitrary, which is amusing, but not surprising, but I do believe people should be more honest and simply admit that these American ships, which were typically better armed, better built in comparison to their contemporaries are a thorn on the sides of the established notion of 'British naval supremacy', which is very much true in the grand scale, but fails to hold up in a smaller skirmish environment, in a world where ships like the Constitution, Constellation and Delaware Class ship-of-the-line exists. If arguments were to be made along those lines then perhaps, as a community, the discussion can move forward. At any rate, before ship of the lines, I'd like to first see the other smaller vessels of the United States like the USS United States heavy frigate (42lbers) and the USS Constellation (A smaller, lighter, faster Constitution with similar armaments of 24s and 32lbers), which were of course the bread and butter of the United States Navy.