"Naval Arms Race" mod overhaul. BETA v11.2 - for UAD v1.5.1.3

[o Barão]

BETA v4.0.6 N.A.R. changelog:

• Updated to UAD 1.4.0.9 Opt x4

 

The traditional battle formations will be used.

I will not support two mod versions. But for anyone interested in editing the files, these are the values I was using.

 

#,,Ai Division,,,,,,,
division_ships_from,2,"starting min amount of ships in division (can be less, if not enough ships)",3,,,,,,
division_ships_to,4,starting max amount of ships in division,5,,,,,,
spread_close,0.85,distance between ships range modifier for close spread,0.8,,,,,,
spread_far,1.15,distance between ships range modifier for far spread,2,,,,,,
initial_follow,0,percent of division following flagman at start of battle,0,0,,,,,
initial_scout,0,percent of division scouting flagman at start of battle,15,25,,,,,
initial_screen,0,percent of division screening flagman at start of battle,0,0,,,,,
initial_line,0,chance to have division in line formation (not column as usual),30,30,,,,,
division_following_gap,300,range between ships in same division,100,,,,,,
scout_range,3000,range to ally for scout order,,,,,,,
screen_range,1500,range to ally for scout order,400,,,,,,
follow_range,750,range to ally for follow order,300,,,,,,
ai_independent_range_away,13000,range limit for ai's independent divisions,3000,,,,,,
scout_range_away,6000,limit of range for scouting fleet to go away from ally,,,,,,,
screen_range_away,5000,limit of range for screening fleet to go away from ally,1000,,,,,,
optimal_battle_range_mulitplier,0.999,multiplier for optimal AI battle range when in division,1,,,,,,
max_battle_lines_spread,2000,,,,,,,,
min_battle_lines_spread,1500,,,,,,,,
#,,Ai Ship,,,,,,,
general_retreat_threshold,0.00125,ratio of own fleet's power to enemy to start general fleet retreat (keep lower than battle_avoid_threshold),0.5,,,,,,
division_retreat_threshold,0.1,threshold to start division retreat for division's estimated damage (average median),0.3,,,,,,
torpedo_evade_range,1500,"torpedo spotting range for evasion, half of it is used for torpedo prediction",800,test: 2000 or lower,,,,,
approach_clamp,0.1,Lmit of direction/away approach angle for ship's far away. Must not be >1. The bigger the sharper turns to reach the desired distance.,0.5 [0.3~1],,,,,,
approach_clamp_torpedoes,0.99,Approach logic for ships armed with torpedoes. The bigger the sharper turns to reach the desired distance.,,,,,,,
approach_clamp_no_guns,0.7,"Same, but if too far to shoot guns. The bigger the sharper turns to reach the desired distance.",0.95 [0.3~1],0.17,,,,,
ai_aggressiveness_exp_factor,1,"The bigger the number, the more profound the effect of AI personality. Very big values can bring ships to min or max ranges often. This is a power factor, it must not be a high number or very small number.",,,,,,,
ai_power_exp_factor,1,Ai estimation of power modifier. Modifier that increases the evaluated power of AI. Needs caution for not overflow or values that can be negligible at long distance.,,,,,,,
ai_risk_exp_factor,1,The bigger the value the less confident becomes the AI to approach. Modifier that increases the evaluated power of human. Needs caution for not overflow or values that can be negligible at long distance.,,,,,,,
ai_distance_mod,0.5,Control the optimal engage distance of AI. A modifier which determines the overall desired distance of AI.,,,,,,,
#,,Extra division params,,,,,,,
enemyShipsCollideDistanceModifier,0,Evasion Distance Modifier against Enemy Ships,,,,,,,

 

[BrassBattleship]

33 minutes ago, o Barão said:

Using the AI-Swarm tactics version? That is to be expected. Use the other version or control all your ships.

No, using the other version, not the swarm, because I actually wanted to avoid the mess. But its still a mess. The AI both yours and Enemy goes straight at each other. I dont know if its only for 1895, because the accuracy is garbage.

[o Barão]

1 hour ago, BrassBattleship said:

The AI both yours and Enemy goes straight at each other.

Not really, but I can explain in details what is happening.

 

The modifiers we have available are universal and will be applied in the same way for all eras. It does not matter if it is 1890 or 1950, it is always the same, and this is an issue.

 

The reason for not being possible is the main division in NAR is ordered to have smooth angles of approach to the target the moment it is in range of the main guns, and all the others divisions have limit ranges to how much far away they can sail away from the main division. In NAR this is limited to only 3km for the independent divisions and to a maximum 5km to the screen divisions.

 

So I can guarantee to you if you set a custom battle around 1940 with initial starting distances around 25km, it will take some time until the fleets gets close to each other. (both being controlled by the AI)

But in 1890, the initial starting ranges for a battle are way low, but the modifiers values are the same, so now is possible to see divisions fighting each other at close ranges already from the start.

[TheBlackCitadel]

8 hours ago, o Barão said:

Give me the worst example for me to take a look. (screenshot)

Here's an example: The 1890s British Battleship 1 Hull. The typical Pre-Dreadnought. In the first image you can see i've only put on the superstructure and funnels, 16 knot speed, max range, and standard crew quarters, and it's already overweight.

In the second image you can see i've added all of the weaponry. 12 inch main guns, 6 inch and 5 inch casemates, and torpedo tubes. Vastly overweight.

In the third image you can see the armor thickness, which i've trimmed down from how it was generated.

In the 4th image, to get it underweight, I had to lower the range to 6744 km. Even if I put zero armor on the ships aside from the necessary 9 inches of belt armor, I'd have to lower the range to 11600 km to get it to be underweight as show in the 5th and 6th image.

Lowering it to 15 knots doesn't fix it, and that's the lowest possible speed for it. I don't know if the weight rebalance is just bugged or if this is intentional.

[GrantK]

I had a look at the campaign save file looking for a way to temporarily disable a new gun tech.

Its the old issue - you have perfectly good ships and want to fit them with new range finders and maybe eg convert to oil burning.   And then the new guns show up and its impossible.   I even was monitoring the mk4s progress and tried to bump the rangefinders ahead but didnt make it.

So in the campaign save file there is a tech level file.  Where in there can you reset the gun tech level back to Mk3 for a given gun?   And how come all the levels are set to zero in my campaign file?   Odd, usually 0 means 'not' and 1 means 'yes', but the entire secondary gun section is all zero?   

I can probably work out which number is mk4 6 inch, but the 0 1 2 etc applied to these numbers is just inscrutable.   

Im just looking for a workaround for refits, I can live with the mk3s in this case, but not do without the new rangefinders etc.   Any insight would be appreciated.

[o Barão]

22 minutes ago, GrantK said:

I had a look at the campaign save file looking for a way to temporarily disable a new gun tech.

I don't have experience in editing save files. I really have no idea if it is possible to change the ship guns from the save file. Maybe it is, but the issue is to fit the new guns when the refit happens, right? So I don't know how editing the save file could help you anyway.

 

Maybe other user can help you with that.

[BrassBattleship]

Barao, a quick question. Is it possible to create separate eras for the game? Or separate mods with a Pre-Dreadnought era, Dreadnought era and Post/Modern era. Like if you want to have a campaign with the pre-dreadnought era tech and so on

 

[SpardaSon21]

1 hour ago, TheBlackCitadel said:

Here's an example: The 1890s British Battleship 1 Hull. The typical Pre-Dreadnought. In the first image you can see i've only put on the superstructure and funnels, 16 knot speed, max range, and standard crew quarters, and it's already overweight.

In the second image you can see i've added all of the weaponry. 12 inch main guns, 6 inch and 5 inch casemates, and torpedo tubes. Vastly overweight.

In the third image you can see the armor thickness, which i've trimmed down from how it was generated.

In the 4th image, to get it underweight, I had to lower the range to 6744 km. Even if I put zero armor on the ships aside from the necessary 9 inches of belt armor, I'd have to lower the range to 11600 km to get it to be underweight as show in the 5th and 6th image.

Lowering it to 15 knots doesn't fix it, and that's the lowest possible speed for it. I don't know if the weight rebalance is just bugged or if this is intentional.

I found the issue:

Coal weight at max range (13,446 km):

Coal weight at min range(6,783 km):

Even with her ungeared turbines HMS Dreadnought only needed 4,054 tons of mixed coal (2,914 metric tons) and oil (1,140 metric tons) for a cruising range of 12,260km.  The Royal Sovereigns which were initially laid down in 1889 and with the first generation of triple expansion engines used 1,443 metric tons of coal for a cruising range of 8,740 km.

Edited December 16, 2023 by SpardaSon21

[TheBlackCitadel]

Ah, thank you. Such short range for ships will not be good for some nations with colonies that require defending across the seas.

15 minutes ago, SpardaSon21 said:

I found the issue:

Coal weight at max range (13,446 km):

Coal weight at min range(6,783 km):

Even with her ungeared turbines HMS Dreadnought only needed 4,054 tons of mixed coal (2,914 metric tons) and oil (1,140 metric tons) for a cruising range of 12,260km.  The Royal Sovereigns which were initially laid down in 1889 and with the first generation of triple expansion engines used 1,443 metric tons of coal for a cruising range of 8,740 km.

Thank you. Such short range will be trouble for any country with a lot of colonies far from their mainland

[o Barão]

24 minutes ago, SpardaSon21 said:

Even with her ungeared turbines HMS Dreadnought only needed 4,054 tons of mixed coal (2,914 metric tons) and oil (1,140 metric tons) for a cruising range of 12,260km.  The Royal Sovereigns which were initially laid down in 1889 and with the first generation of triple expansion engines used 1,443 metric tons of coal for a cruising range of 8,740 km.

I need a link I can read about that, to be used as a reference. By the way, the values I applied are using the data from the Bismarck as a reference, and that is a modern BB. To compare one engine to another old one running on coal can lead to some issues. Will never be perfect.

 

The data from the Bismarck is available on the mod description (pdf)

Also, not only the coal, but the weight of the boiler feedwater stored is important.

[o Barão]

19 minutes ago, TheBlackCitadel said:

Ah, thank you. Such short range for ships will not be good for some nations with colonies that require defending across the seas.

Thank you. Such short range will be trouble for any country with a lot of colonies far from their mainland

Good enough?

[TheBlackCitadel]

1 hour ago, o Barão said:

Good enough?

I think so

[o Barão]

2 hours ago, BrassBattleship said:

Barao, a quick question. Is it possible to create separate eras for the game? Or separate mods with a Pre-Dreadnought era, Dreadnought era and Post/Modern era. Like if you want to have a campaign with the pre-dreadnought era tech and so on

 

You are asking if it is possible to limit the campaign years? I don't think so. But you can always choose when to start and when to end. Most of my campaigns are always around 1890-1920. My favorite time period.

[RektitRekt]

Hello.
I've been following NAR's development for about a week now since I first found it. I just want to thank you for trying to improve the game, this is definitely what I needed to fully enjoy UAD. I have a few questions for you,  if you have the time and it's possible to do so. 

>Is it possible to add new sound effects for cannon fire above 6 inch (152mm) and above? (I don't ask for the ones currently available to be removed, I just want to have more sound effects for each gun)
>Is it possible to remove the tracers from the shells? 
>Is it possible to increase the time it takes for the smoke from the guns after they shoot to disappear?
>Is it possible to add sound effects for incoming shells midair? 
>Is it possible to edit the flags of the nations to be more historically accurate? (and for custom flags too)

These may be meh requests, however I believe it would be a pretty cool and welcome addition if I say so myself. By the way I support the current Traditional Battle AI you have here, they don't charge anymore like maniacs to my fleet lol.


English is not my native language (I speak Spanish) so I hope you can understand what i'm trying to say here. 
 

[SpardaSon21]

9 hours ago, o Barão said:

I need a link I can read about that, to be used as a reference. By the way, the values I applied are using the data from the Bismarck as a reference, and that is a modern BB. To compare one engine to another old one running on coal can lead to some issues. Will never be perfect.

 

The data from the Bismarck is available on the mod description (pdf)

Also, not only the coal, but the weight of the boiler feedwater stored is important.

I got those numbers from Wikipedia.  Not sure about feedwater for Dreadnought, but Royal Sovereign predated the use of small-tube boilers by a great deal and so used salt water drawn from the ocean as boiling water.

[o Barão]

34 minutes ago, SpardaSon21 said:

I got those numbers from Wikipedia.  Not sure about feedwater for Dreadnought, but Royal Sovereign predated the use of small-tube boilers by a great deal and so used salt water drawn from the ocean as boiling water.

Ok. I will lower the fuel weight around 20%. Let's see how it goes

[o Barão]

BETA v4.0.7 N.A.R. changelog:

• Fuel weight adjustments. -20%

[BrassBattleship]

13 hours ago, o Barão said:

You are asking if it is possible to limit the campaign years? I don't think so. But you can always choose when to start and when to end. Most of my campaigns are always around 1890-1920. My favorite time period.

I meant if its possible to lock techs probably so the game is stuck in certain era. Like a Pre-Dreadnought era, where your campaign doesnt advance technologically past a certain point and you play the campaign within that era. Or You start with a Dreadnought Era and dont advance into the modern era, something like that. Just an Idea/thought

[GrantK]

9 hours ago, o Barão said:

I don't have experience in editing save files. I really have no idea if it is possible to change the ship guns from the save file. Maybe it is, but the issue is to fit the new guns when the refit happens, right? So I don't know how editing the save file could help you anyway.

 

Maybe other user can help you with that.

OK

Yes the issue is to be able to NOT fit the new guns.   Since the issue has been brought up many many times, and the developer has not the resources, or possibly the will, to fix, I thought a workaround would be to reset the gun research so the MK4 is 'not researched yet'.   The campaign file must contain tech research progress, and in fact there is a table in the JSON which points at these.   I just need a 'translator' for the numeric codes and how to set to 'not researched yet'.   Then refit the ships, and set it back to researched and carry on.

This issue has been hashed before many a time in these forums, steam reddit etc.   IRL many heavy ships never changed main guns at all.  Common for BBs, and many others.  Consider even DDs would go their service life with the original guns as often as not.

Of course the whole refit thing is implemented pretty 'loose', I mean casually changing length and beam?   Or swapping in turbines where 4 deck high piston engines were, or changing all the armor!   I may run a campaign with no radar before say 1935 and minimize refits to what is actually reasonable, see what happens.   But thats all off topic. 

My point is: with all the wild stuff you can do or not do in a refit, yet somehow the guns and some other stuff MUST be changed.   Just looking for a workaround. 

Just tonight had a predread in 1915 and the new guns once again just upended the ship.   End up having to downsize guns, then up the replacements to *.9 and length to 15% and other such nonsense, just to keep firepower equivalent.  Or many cases cant be done at all.  And destroyers just impossible in vanilla, the gunhouses for all these hideous MK4s look like some blast protection oddity for a BB or somesuch, those weird little domes for the Japanese 4 and 5 inch when you hit MK4 for example, never saw THOSE on a DD.   I think they come from the secondary fits on the Yamato?   So you have to wait for twin barrel gunhouses for DDs before you can ship the new torpedoes, or lose gun mountings......  etc etc etc.    

I posted this in this particular thread because it seems to have the most traffic by far.   Not because I expect our host to fix it, but as he said, maybe somebody knows?

 

 

[BrassBattleship]

"Collision Avoidance Mechanic" in action. Every single battle the same thing. Been playing this game for 2 days and it makes me want to uninstall it. This game doesnt work. Like nothing naval battle and ship path finding wise works in here.

[o Barão]

34 minutes ago, BrassBattleship said:

"Collision Avoidance Mechanic" in action. Every single battle the same thing. Been playing this game for 2 days and it makes me want to uninstall it. This game doesnt work. Like nothing naval battle and ship path finding wise works in here.

The collision avoid mechanic is the same as vanilla in relation to friendly ships. I suggest you to play the vanilla game for a while to know how it plays, just so you understand what are my limits.

 

You are using AI divisions. I understand why some players do this, but I never use them, and I prefer to control everything. This way I prevent any possible issues with divisions movements.

[BrassBattleship]

44 minutes ago, o Barão said:

The collision avoid mechanic is the same as vanilla in relation to friendly ships. I suggest you to play the vanilla game for a while to know how it plays, just so you understand what are my limits.

 

You are using AI divisions. I understand why some players do this, but I never use them, and I prefer to control everything. This way I prevent any possible issues with divisions movements.

Im not blaming you mate, Im just posting the marvels of AI of this game. 5/6 years of development and this game is barely in Alpha/Beta stage... Thats appalling at best.

As far as your mod or not, but the Light Cruisers behaving like BB`s... They approach enemy line, drop the speed to nearly 7-9 knots and engage in fire fight at close range. They not using the speed and manuverability to their advantage. is there a way to fix this?

[o Barão]

28 minutes ago, BrassBattleship said:

They approach enemy line, drop the speed to nearly 7-9 knots and engage in fire fight at close range. They not using the speed and manuverability to their advantage. is there a way to fix this?

Patches ago, maybe one year already? The devs implemented a change where the AI ships would imitate the target speed and form battle lines. Now this is very good if we are talking about BB vs BB, the issue is like most AI parameters in game, this one is also universal and applied to all ships, so when you see that happening you already know why.

 

And yes, I mention this issue sometimes already to the devs.

[BrassBattleship]

5 minutes ago, o Barão said:

Patches ago, maybe one year already? The devs implemented a change where the AI ships would imitate the target speed and form battle lines. Now this is very good if we are talking about BB vs BB, the issue is like most AI parameters in game, this one is also universal and applied to all ships, so when you see that happening you already know why.

 

And yes, I mention this issue sometimes already to the devs.

Every ship class should have had its own behavior pattern, instead of a universal. I like to manage BB`s, and let the LC and DD do their own thing, but those just suicide into enemy line and ram into your own ships. Its a massive mess instead of a naval warfare. Will try swarm tactics, see if anything changes.

 

Thanks for the quick updates on the mod btw.

[o Barão]

17 hours ago, RektitRekt said:

English is not my native language (I speak Spanish) so I hope you can understand what i'm trying to say here.

I understand perfectly, and I am Portuguese, so if you speak in Spanish most likely I also understand. The things you are asking it can be possible to edit with the right tools, digging the resource assets. I am just editing the text base files, so I am not the right man for the job.