Submarines are a blight on this game

[theonlymaverick]

Can we have an adult discussion about submarine balancing? 

The latest patch improves ASW to try and counter the submarine menace, but it really isn't enough.

A basic tier 1 coastal submarine can still mythically survive 4 hunter killer fleets with sonar and the best ASW around, only to then be able to sink a battleship in a fifth fleet. I understand submarines are meant to be stealthy and a bane for surface ships, but this keeps happening with such disturbing regularity that it gets incredibly frustrating when a 200 ton technologically inept submarine sinks a 30000 ton battleship... It is akin to a Type IX U-boat sinking a modern carrier.

Why can't the base game be amended to strengthen submarines over time? Or turn submarines into a transport killing part of the game similar to the German U-Boat wolf packs? Or factor in a fleets ASW capabilities more, so as to encourage ships to travel with more destroyers/light cruisers?

It really is sapping my enjoyment of what is a really fun game...

 

 

Edited November 3, 2023 by theonlymaverick

[Lucinator]

welcome to reality.  This is how subs really were.  The actual problem is the lack of aircraft which were the actual bane of subs in real life.  Would love to see patrol planes implemented.

[Lima]

49 minutes ago, Lucinator said:

welcome to reality.  This is how subs really were.  The actual problem is the lack of aircraft which were the actual bane of subs in real life.  Would love to see patrol planes implemented.

What kind of reality are we talking about? In our reality, what was described in the first post could only end with the sinking of a submarine, especially since 200t is practically a floating coffin.

The subs preceding the Type XXI were just raiders who were *sometimes* submerged. When meeting with a specialized ASW group, this subs were massacred. It was impossible to use subs for a confident attack on a task force if there were a sufficient number of escort ships with modern ASW equipment. The thing is that there are always not enough of escorts, but in the game you can make sure that there are enough of them.

Subs could succeed if the enemy was distracted or didn't have enough escort ships. But in this game you see the subs vs TF without involving anyone else. That is, the ships are not distracted, they are busy with the task of destroying subs. In such a situation and with a sufficient number of escort ships, subs should only think about saving their lives.

[Alistair the Wretched]

I have 1,500 hours in this game, and while I do still enjoy it, I have to agree with the OP.  Submarines are a blight on UA:DN.  They are the one overall mechanic added since I first started playing that I legitimately think made the game worse on the whole.

An example from my own current experiences:  I am currently playing a campaign as Italy where, due to a single British SSC lurking in the Adriatic, I constructed a dozen modern destroyers equipped with the best ASW tech possible, and deployed them right on top of it.  This is one of the first submarines fielded by any power in this campaign, so likely the most basic coastal type.  Yet not only did it sink a new armored cruiser in spite of level three torpedo protection and it being equipped with hydrophones and depth charges, it has also damaged at least one destroyer of those earlier models sent to hunt it in varying degrees for several turns, and now continues to damage or sink one of my more modern ones each turn.  Early on I spotted the trend and acted against it, but it is still ongoing.  One basic coastal submarine is repeatedly damaging and killing destroyers in large groups specifically designed to hunt it, when the reality would go something like this:

Submarine captain feels plucky, fires a shot at hunter-killer group.  One destroyer is damaged, possibly sunk -- and that only assuming the submarine does not miss entirely and that the torpedo is not a dud.  All of the other destroyers now note the direction of the shot and begin using hydrophones to swarm the general area, launching depth charges in a spread over the area where the submarine is suspected to be.  If there is no immediate response or evidence of a damaged submarine, such as debris or an oil slick, they linger, waiting and listening.  If they hear the submarine moving on the hydrophones, trying to escape, they approach and launch more depth charges, eventually destroying it just due to volume of fire.  If it does not move, trying to lay on the bottom or stay submerged, they linger until it is forced to surface due to its batteries needing a charge and/or running low on breathable air, upon which it will be obliterated on the surface by gunfire.  Otherwise, it stays submerged until its crew succumbs to carbon monoxide poisoning.

In short, there's simply no way that this one coastal submarine would have survived over a year now with a dozen modern (for their era) ASW destroyers hunting it.  Also, I just noticed that its supply port (for its operations in the Adriatic) is supposed to be Dover.  How?  It is a coastal model, and in this campaign, I currently control both Gibraltar and the Suez Canal.  Not that a supply ship could go from Dover around Africa and through the Suez in any timely fashion, but I wan't to point out that it wouldn't be an option if it could.  Do you expect me to believe that some intrepid supply ship is repeatedly sneaking past my patrols at Gibraltar every month to continue resupplying this submarine with not only food, but also the torpedoes it is using month after month to damage and sink my ASW group?  At sea?  Without being seen and sunk by said-same ASW group?  That is preposterous on every level.  It would be borderline impossible to rearm with torpedoes at sea on a submarine of this era, and the period required on the surface for even a basic resupply of food would have both the submarine and supply ship spotted and sunk with the number of ships I have deployed in the area.

Worse than all that: other than port bombardment or assaults on unescorted transports, submarines are the only type of engagement that we as players absolutely cannot control or direct outside of an auto resolve.  In other words, this is the only warship-to-warship combat that we cannot actively control when we play the game, completely removing any ability for us circumvent the clearly broken RNG by simply outplaying the AI.  So even if you mean to make the case that they are historically accurate, which frankly they are not, submarine engagements ruin the gameplay.  There are far more blatant historical problems, such as arbitrary limits on armor thickness, recently imposed in the name of balance, than would be represented by either nerfing submarines or enhancing ASW effectiveness.  Both of these, I will add, would not even represent a compromise of historical accuracy, but would bring the game closer to reality while *also* enhancing balance.

Worst of all is this: the game's best mechanic is warship design, and the player has no say in the design of their submarines because they are nothing more interesting or engaging than a bit of poorly-balanced random number generation, each new "class" being nothing more than a box on a tech tree.  It makes them so boring compared to literally every other type of ship that can be designed that I wonder why they were even included.  If there are no aircraft or aircraft carriers because they would ruin the game's balance and simply not be enjoyable, why must there be submarines which share precisely those same two faults?

Edited December 1, 2023 by Alistair the Wretched

[Lastreaumont]

In my fight againt submarines I chose the path of specialized and optimized ships for that and for that only. The main goal for these designs is to maximize ASW and detection scores for a reduced cost. Of course the design is dependant of current accessible technologies, but I identified some common rules. 
- CL can reach higher scores than DD.
- Smallest size for a given hull.
- Very high speed, up to 40-42 when possible, and not too expensive.
- Very long range to be able to follow the rest of the fleet, even with terrible engine efficiency.
- Beam and draught to minimum.
- 1 smallest available funnel, heavier funnels reduce ASW score. Don't care of engine efficiency. 
- Highest main tower.
- Lowest secondary tower.
- 1 smallest possible gun, with smallest gun length, few ammo.
- No armor.
- No rangefinder. 
- Highest radar available, up to 2, radar 3 gives smaller scores. 
- Highest sonar available.
- RDF if available.
- highest anti sub weapons.
With Radar 2 and sonar 3, you can reach ASW scores higher than 10000. 
I use 1 of these ships for each BB and BC in my fleets. 
Theses ships are useless in battle, and very fragile, this is not their job, order them to retreat directly when battle starts. 

Additional Tip: to identify these ships easily in ships lists, I rename them with the same name, followed by a number.
Examples:
- US, GB: Escort 1, Escort 2, Escort 3,...
- France: Escorteur 1, Escorteur 2, Escorteur 3,...
- Japan: Goei 1, Goei 2, Goei 3,...
etc. 

Hope I helped.