Ultimate General Civil War questions

[Saris]

I just got UG CW couple days ago and it is quite a fun strategy game to play and I just need some answers that will improve my game play. What are the best starting perks? How many pet brigades should I have to refill with veterans? Is cavalry worth replacing them with veterans? Are skirmishers worth it or should I just detach them from the infantry brigades? How do you win at Cedar Mountain as the Confederates? Why are howitzers way better than other artillery pieces? If y'all could help me with these it would be nice!

Edited December 31, 2016 by Saris

[Wandering1]

The starting perks are more related to how you want to play your army. While there certainly is a 'meta' build right now for starting perks based on practical usage, the meta build becomes rather obvious once you finish your first campaign. And in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't change too much how you play in the long run.

Re: filling with Veterans for standard infantry brigades. My policy is two per corps, but this will vary depending how many casualties you're taking (and thus, money losing on veterans).

Caveat to the cavalry question, I strictly use melee cavalry because skirmisher cavalry require too much micro to use effectively when I can spend that time microing sniper skirmishers. To me, there's only a small window where replacing cavalry with veterans is worth it. This is where the unit's melee skill is somewhere between 40-70, where replacing them with veterans is comparatively pretty cheap (veteran cost is based on how much veterancy they actually have). Once they start reaching 100 melee skill in each battle easily, I start filling them with recruits until they hit around 80 melee skill. If I need full vet squads for the major battles, I will fill them with vets (grand scheme of things, replacing cavalry with vets is still relatively cheap compared to replacing infantry with vets).

On the topic of sniper skirmishers, it varies depending on the map. A heavily forested map, where most units are in 80-100% cover, sniper skirmishers are useless because they do too little damage. On the more wide-open maps, they kill at around the same pace as artillery for a fraction of supply cost. And replacing sniper skirmishers with veterans is rather cheap if you don't lose too many men.

I forgot which map Cedar Mountain was. A lot of the time though, if you want to win, don't walk in the front door. Take the time to do the long flanks where the enemy isn't expecting you, so you aren't getting creamed by artillery in the open.

Most of the artillery pieces have their niche uses. Rifled artillery tends to do better long range damage, whereas howitzers are more short-medium range. Most important, however, if you're playing CSA, the artillery pieces start shining when you place them behind your infantry where the Union forces tend to throw men by charging at you. The artillery starts firing canister when the enemy gets close, and that's where howitzers start racking up hundreds of kills.

[Aetius]

Politics is the best perk right now, simply because the money can be used on anything, plus it adds additional recruits. Everything else is up to your playstyle. Artillery goes through ammunition like there's no tomorrow, so if you want a lot of artillery go Logistics. Many people swear by Recon because it allows them to see when the AI scaling starts to kick in. If you're looking to equip a lot of specialized units, Economy is helpful - it not only reduces costs, but makes more weapons available.

For infantry / skirmisher unit perks, by default I take whatever boosts Stamina unless I have a very specific reason to do otherwise. Condition is easily spent and relatively difficult to get back, particularly on the attack. For Artillery, I take the ammo perk and then either accuracy or fire rate, depending on their role. For cavalry, shock cavalry should always take +Charge damage - nothing else is really relevant for them. Other cavalry choose along the same lines as skirmishers, for the most part (although I tend to take mounted speed instead of foot speed).

For filling veterans, I like to spread things out. I'll put veterans in the unit up to a certain level, usually based on available money and the number of units, and then top them off with 100-200 recruits. This reduces their abilities by a couple of points, but to me it's worth it, and means I have more experienced units available.

I agree with Wandering1 on vet shock cavalry - they gain Melee experience so fast that you can fill them with recruits and they'll be back up to 100 by the next battle. The only thing to watch there is to make sure you don't drop them down a star, particularly at the two star level, which has a perk that grants an additional +25% charge damage.

The answer to the skirmisher question is "yes". Dedicated skirmishers are definitely worth it in certain circumstances, snipers being the most common one. When you're faced with a battle like Gaines' Mill as the CSA, where attacking frontally is suicide, snipers are one of the most effective units you can have. Detached skirmishers are also useful in a variety of roles, primarily screening your flanks and providing flanking fire. For example, at Shiloh the only units that should enter the Pit (the creek valley on the CSA right flank) are skirmishers - anyone else will just get bogged down.

Howitzers aren't the way better than other artillery. As Wandering1 noted, they are best at defensive short range canister fire, which is valuable because it's one of the ways to quickly defeat mass charges and keep your other units alive and fighting. The 12 pound howitzers are mediocre, while the 24 pound howitzers are excellent. 6 pounders and Napoleons are the "medium" artillery, decent at short range and ... not completely useless at long range. The various rifled guns are primarily for long-range counter-battery fire, to destroy the enemy howitzers before you run your infantry in front of them.

[Bill the Bold]

Medicine is a good one too because they keep their weapons, handy for CSA if you're on short supply of proper rifles.  Problem is it takes a lot of points to seem worthwhile but i guess once you're getting 20% of your veterans back with their weapons it will pay off.  For union I put more into politics though.

 I try to refill with as many veterans as i can afford for any unit with a star or more and i dont fill a 2 star unit with veterans (or any unit really) if it means 1 star and no star units go half strength.

Depends how you want to use your cavalry. 

3 hours ago, Aetius said:

The answer to the skirmisher question is "yes".

Klingon guile?

The 12pdr howitzers under perform frankly, the 24pdrs are vicious but not many around.  I'd take the napoleons over 12pdrs every time and I suspect that 6pdrs are more cost effective than 12pdrs.

 

 

 

 

[A. P. Hill]

2 hours ago, Bill the Bold said:

... The 12pdr howitzers under perform frankly, the 24pdrs are vicious but not many around.  I'd take the napoleons over 12pdrs every time and I suspect that 6pdrs are more cost effective than 12pdrs.

Now there's a informed statement.  Not sure where you get your opinion that 12lb howitzers under perform?  Howitzers were designed to be a short range with an arching trajectory. When not used as designed and used as big ass shotguns, 12lb howitzers do a fine job.  As for the 24lb howitzers, same function as 12lb but with a heavier round and a slightly larger powder charge.  Thus their range when used as big assed shotguns tend to send canister a bit farther so yeah, they might do more damage.

Also for the record, the Napoleons are 12lb guns.  In the time they were called many things.  They were designed to basically take the place of the standard Model 1841 12lb gun. This gun was 85 inches long with a 4.62 bore, (smooth,) and a weight of around 1600 - 1800 pounds depending on tube material.  The Napoleon, as it came to be called, is officially the Model 1857 Light 12lb Gun - Howitzer. (Essentially trying to fill two roles.)  The Napoleon was 72.5 inches long with a 4.62 bore, (smooth,) and a weight of approx. 1220 pounds.  The Model 1841 12lb came to be called the Model 1841 12lb Heavy, while the Model 1857 came to be called the Model 1857 12lb Light Gun - Howitzer.  Where the Model 1841 12lb Howitzer was 58.5 inches long with a 4.62 bore, (smooth,) and a weight of around 695 - 796 pounds depending on tube material.  (Materials were Bronze, or Cast Iron for all three tubes.)

The federal government did not use 6lb guns after 1st Manassas/Bull Run. The Federal Military called them obsolete. With the manufacturing capabilities they had they started mass producing the bronze Model 1857 12lb Light Gun Howitzer, and it superseded the 6.  The Confederacy on the other hand were hard up for weaponry and used a variety of tubes, and the 6lb gun was in abundance in their batteries during the early war. Most all the 6lb guns made from bronze however were eventually all shipped to Tredegar in Richmond, VA where the Confederate government dictated that they all be recast into Model 1862 CSA style 12lb Light Gun - Howitzers.

The difference between the three guns, 12lb Heavy Model 1841, 12lb Light Gun - Howitzer Model 1857, and the 12lb Howitzer were obvious based on powder charges.  The Model 1841 12lb Howitzer used at maximum a 1 pound charge. The Model 1857 12lb Gun-Howitzer used a maximum 2.5 pound charge, and the Model 1841 12lb Heavy also used a 2.5 pound charge.   With those charges, and a 1 degree elevation to the tube, each gun could fire a shell 539 yards, 615 yards, and 662 yards respectively down range.

For my comparison of the 12lb Howitzer vs the 24lb Howitzer, see my comment in the 24 Pound Howitzer Thread.

[Bill the Bold]

13 hours ago, A. P. Hill said:

For my comparison of the 12lb Howitzer vs the 24lb Howitzer, see my comment in the 24 Pound Howitzer Thread.

I did read your comparison in the 24pdr howitzer thread and I found it to be like your comment in this thread, confused in conception and entirely irrelevant. While somewhat interesting from a historic view point I fail to see how the bore diameters differences between the real life weapons that this game models has any bearing on actual game play.  Given the information you posted in this thread what advice would you give the OP?   How does any of that help him?  

The fact, as you so eloquently present, that the CSA melted down their bronze 6pdrs to make "Model 1862 CSA style 12lb Light Gun" would seem to indicate that in real life 12pdr howitzers were noticeably superior to 6pdr cannons.  My experience in game is that 12pdrs are not "noticeably" superior to a similar sized battery of 6pdrs and given that you can afford larger batteries of 6pdrs it seems to me the 6pdrs are more cost effective.  Perhaps then, in the game called "Ultimate General: Civil War" 12pdr howitzers under perform compared to their historical counterparts.  

Since you're obviously the most well informed expert on all matters artillery I was wondering if you could answer a question that's been bothering me?  Ok, given that the Model 1841 12lb Howitzer was 58.5 inches long with a 4.62 bore, (smooth,) and a weight of around 695 - 796 pounds depending on tube material, at what range will my napoleon batteries start firing canister?  

 

[KaleRaven]

FYI what they called a "12lb Light Gun" is a Napoleon-type gun, not a 'howitzer'. Napoleons were preferred over the 12lb howitzer whenever available. I find the 12 lb howitzer to be noticeably more effective than the 6lb field gun at close range. Neither gun is effective beyond a few hundred yards anyway, so the 6 lb gun's advantage there is of marginal utility.

Edited January 1, 2017 by KaleRaven

[Bill the Bold]

1 hour ago, KaleRaven said:

FYI what they called a "12lb Light Gun" is a Napoleon-type gun, not a 'howitzer'. 

I most respectfully beg to differ good sir, the field piece to which I refer in my last post, the "Model 1862 CSA style 12lb Light Gun" was described by A.P Hill as, and is therefore most assuredly, a howitzer.

16 hours ago, A. P. Hill said:

Model 1862 CSA style 12lb Light Gun - Howitzers.

In all seriousness though, I am interested to hear your thoughts on 12pdr howitzers vs 6pdrs.  As union I always had plenty of napoleons around so I've never had more than a battery of 12pdrs way down in the battle order.  What I'm curious to know is which of those two weapons makes for a superior battery overall, taking into account factors like cost, availability and battlefield effectiveness.  If one 12pdr is better than one 6pdr then what about eight 12pdrs vs twelve 6pdrs? 

[KaleRaven]

Napoleons were also called "gun-howitzers" because they demonstrated characteristics which theretofore had been considered those of a gun as well as those of a howitzer.

Edited January 1, 2017 by KaleRaven

[Bill the Bold]

Oh ok, they're "gun-howitzers" now.  That makes perfect sense.  I guess you and Hill have a lot to discuss then because he seems to think that the Model 1862 CSA style 12lb Light Gun is a howitzer.   I honestly couldn't care less about the true historical classifications, specifications or indeed the true performance of an actual real life weapon.  What matters is how it works in game. 

So if you could take a battery of eight 12pdrs or twelve 6pdrs which one would you take?  

[Hitorishizuka]

53 minutes ago, Bill the Bold said:

 

So if you could take a battery of eight 12pdrs or twelve 6pdrs which one would you take?

Eight 12pdrs for two reasons:

1) Instant burst shock damage from the 12pdrs is most important for getting units to break

2) Auto-scaling means it's better to bring smaller elite batteries instead of bigger ones with worse guns to prevent the AI from getting more free guns

Honestly I wouldn't ever use 6pdrs, even if you're dirt poor there's always something better to be using. 10pdr Ordnance is actually a good choice for training up rookie Artillery on because of its accuracy, then promote them to Napoleons or Howitzers or something later.

[Wandering1]

13 minutes ago, Hitorishizuka said:

Eight 12pdrs for two reasons:

1) Instant burst shock damage from the 12pdrs is most important for getting units to break

2) Auto-scaling means it's better to bring smaller elite batteries instead of bigger ones with worse guns to prevent the AI from getting more free guns

Honestly I wouldn't ever use 6pdrs, even if you're dirt poor there's always something better to be using. 10pdr Ordnance is actually a good choice for training up rookie Artillery on because of its accuracy, then promote them to Napoleons or Howitzers or something later.

Well... for 1st Bull Run, I don't think you really have a choice in the matter with regards to using 6 pdrs, unless you blow all your starting cash on different cannons rather than guns for your men.

It's just fortunate that you can redirect the two NPC artillery brigades to the bridge to help canister Sherman and Keyes' brigades to make sure that front doesn't crack.

[A. P. Hill]

Bill, First, allow me to offer my apologies, I didn’t realize that the provision of actual historical data would be so unappreciated, but I see where that’s possible now.

But before I make a promise to never post any more historically factual information that you might read, let me at least attempt again to enlighten your misconceptions with regard to the 12lb ‘Napoleon’, a.k.a., 12lb Light Gun-Howitzer.

 

While we’re discussing this topic, might I ask if you know what the differences are between Howitzers and Guns? Aside from being a much shorter tube/bore length Howitzers had a smaller powder chamber in the breech of the tube, thus Howitzers tended to have lower muzzle velocities than Guns which had powder chambers the same size as the bore. Again, Howitzers primary purpose was to lob in high trajectory their shell or case rounds, in order to clear fortification walls and burst behind them, and as we all know, they can be used in Gun fashion to hurl canister. Guns on the other hand were used in what is called ‘Direct fire’, or low trajectory.

 

The original design of the 12lb Gun-Howitzer, a.k.a. ‘The Napoleon’ Gun was conceived in France, not by Napoleon Bonaparte, but rather by his nephew Prince Charles Louis Napoleon Bonaparte, who became in later life, Emperor Napoleon III. But before then, Prince Charley, was an avid student of artillery and conceived this Gun to replace, or make obsolete, the mixed 6lb Gun / 12lb Howitzer batteries of the French artillery, reducing many things in the process. (Need for multiple ammunitions, multiple carriages, etc.) That being said, the official French name given this Gun by Prince Charley, was “Canon-Obusier de 12”. Now if you’re unfamiliar with French you may want to take that to an online translation program.

 

This 12lb Gun-Howitzer, a.k.a., 12lb ‘Napoleon’ was adopted by both English and American militaries shortly after its appearance on the world scene, where upon both militaries called it the 12lb Light Gun-Howitzer.

As mentioned Prince Charley’s intent was to outdate the 6lb Gun and the 12lb Howitzers, and the U.S. military conceded to this effort after the Mexican-American War. For confirmation of this, you might want to read some of the following references:

• U.S. War Department, Ordnance Department, Regulations for the Government of the Ordnance Department (1839,) page 7
• John Gibbon, The Artillerist’s Manual, appendix, pages 27, & 41-42
• The Field Manual for the use of the Officers on Ordnance Duty, (1862) prepared by the C.S.A. Ordnance Bureau, pages 55, 76, & 114-116
• The Ordnance Manual for the use of the Officers of the United States Army, 3rd Edition, (1861,) pages 34, 384-386
• The Ordnance Manual for the use of the Officers of the Confederate States Army, (1863,) pages 29, 367-369
• For General Lee’s directive about recasting all the bronze 6lb Guns, 12lb Howitzers, as well as any other miscellaneous bronze tubes into CSA manufactured 12lb ‘‘Napoleon’’ Gun-Howitzers, please see The Official Records of The Rebellion, Series 1, volume 21, page 1046

One last question then I’m done.

You said ...

Quote

... I honestly couldn't care less about the true historical classifications, specifications or indeed the true performance of an actual real life weapon.  What matters is how it works in game. ...

Seriously? … Where do you suppose the developers get their information to make sure that the Guns are as playable to the real thing if not from historical data of the type that I present here?

 

I’m not saying I know for a certainty that the developers of UG-CW use this information, I’d like to think they do, but there are other developers of software who go to great lengths to collect this information to assure their products are as accurate and true to the real thing as they can be.

 

I know you probably don’t care as it’s not related to the game play, but, I’ve studied the American Civil War as actual history for a very long time now, and long before I ever played any representation of it on a computer game. There is abundant documentation to be had about every aspect of this historical event. All you have to do is pick up a book and start reading.