Nations and Factions

[Lyric]

Hello! I wanted to discuss Factions and Nations in closer detail, and maybe chuck a few ideas around the table. Here are a few:

I think, if anyone has played the game puzzle pirates, they did a really good job of Crews and Flags. Essentially you'd have a crew with the captain [the crew leader] and once you have a strong enough crew, you could join an alliance [a flag] with several other crews, combining resources and power to conquer islands.



Idea 1.

Here is my proposal.

You have a Fleet. Your fleet has a good 30 captains in it and a couple of admirals. You want to create an alliance with 3 other fleets. A faction is born. Each faction has a war council with 8 seats. How many seats each fleet is given, is solely dependent on the strength of the fleet. If you have 2 fleets of 30 and 1 fleet of 10 for example, the stronger fleets get 3 seats, and the smaller fleet gets 2. Similar to how Governments work.

So, you have a fully fledged Faction and you're ready to go. We do not get to have the fun of character creating at the beginning of the game [something I love doing], but we could have a completely unique substitute. You could have a ton of diplomatic options that affect the future of your fleet. An example being
- You could decide whether you wanted to be a Mercenary Faction within a nation.
- You could decide whether you wanted to be an Official Faction within a Nation.

The Pros of being an Official Faction
- Assistance and Protection around National Ports, especially useful in reducing the risk of your convoys being attacked
- Cheaper resupplies and upgrades
- The use of their Nation's Semaphore line, enabling faster news of discovered resources, enemies or battles.
- More spaces available in National Public Docks
The Cons of being an Official Faction
Any Islands Claimed or conquered are taxed by your nation
- The tax rate for your Faction is higher
- Lower rewards for capture or Sinking of enemy ships.


The Pros of being a Mercenary Faction
- Any Islands you Capture are not taxed by your nation
- The Tax rate for your Faction is normal.
- Larger Factions accommodate more Fleets.[Resulting in an even lower tax rate per fleet in the faction].
- Larger rewards for the capture of enemy ships.
The Cons of being a Mercenary Faction
- You will not receive protection from National Ports [higher risk of your convoys coming under attack].
- Higher Priced resupplies
- No use of the Nation's Semaphore line. [Encouraging more players to be explorers].
- Not allowed as many spaces in National Public docks.

Attached is my vision of what the Faction UI is likely to look like.
- CLICK TO ENLARGE

Side note: Semaphore lines are a means of conveying information by means of visual signals from tower to tower. Enabling fast communication across miles of land.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semaphore_line


Idea 2.
Skill points? Nope, Faction Structure!

I'm sure quite a lot of us have played such MMOs as World of Warcraft or SWTOR, and know about the Tank, Healer, Dps, Dps, Dps setup. Why not take the concept and apply it to factions.
Lets say you have 3 types of Fleets.
- Military Fleets
- Explorers Fleets
- Merchant Fleets

NOW lets say if you want to create a British Official Faction, with a limit of 5 fleets. You can employ 2 merchant fleets and 3 military fleets. Why no explorer fleet? As an Official Faction, you already get quick messages through the semaphore lines of new islands and discovered resources. This is a slower option, but can have its benefits.

Or if you want to build a faction that is balanced, and fairly reliant on island control and island resources, you could go for 2 explorer fleets, 2 military fleets and 1 merchant.

The point is, that you can decide what sort of faction you want to be a part of in your Faction Council, which plays a big role in your economic and military strategy. The great thing about this, is that the faction becomes less about individual fleet effort, but more about constant communication between the council. If the merchant fleet needs protection from A, so they can get to B and build ships for their faction, one of the military fleets in the faction would be asked to provide escort duty.


Idea 3.
Faction Diplomacy

On top of managing their Faction, Fleets, finances and what not The Faction Council also should be able to have a range of diplomatic options available to them that they can use with Factions of their Nation. I don't think Faction alliances should be introduced, that should be an unofficial feature. I simply think you should be able to trade, send ships or resources to another faction in return for other thinks. For example, if a pure explorers faction was in close relations with another faction they could receive a lot of money for information etc.

Also I think that instead of having some weird ui for guild finding, you just have to know where the faction is based, in one of the public national ports, or if they are bigger, on one of their own islands somewhere. Once you know where a faction is based, you can send letter and open communication with them.You wouldn't really want to open communication with a fleet/faction that isn't close to you so why display them all? It's an efficient way to filter them!
The same goes for an enemy faction. If you want their islands but want the easy option, you should be able to demand they give it up just avoid casualties from both sides, or you will crush them! If they are weaker They may comply and leave to cut their losses, or they may request assistance from a larger allied faction to hold the island

I'm using bad examples, but I DO believe if possible, diplomatic options should be available.

Idea 4.
Paperwork

I've rambled on a lot about the Faction Councils, lets just say they would have their work cut out for them, and it may seem that every captain will want to be a part of that. Which is why you have to introduce a lot of detailed work for the Captains too.
This involves:
- Constant Detailed Reports of their Actions + findings at Sea sent to their Fleets Admiralty [ to be repeated in the F.Council if important]
​- Crew maintenance and conscription
- Ship repair, resupplies and building
- Patrols

Idea 5.
Fleet Dockyards
I think each fleet should have its own ships and its own Treasury which it uses to contribute to the Faction + Island Tax. If a couple of leaders in a Faction have to financially cover for a fleet that just isn't pulling it's weight with their contribution to the faction taxes and what not, they should start to consider finding a replacement for that fleet. I also believe that something in game play mechanics should massively discourage captains to run without a fleet. For a start, making it nearly impossible to gain anything above a medium frigate without the finances of an entire fleet should be implemented.

A lone wolf IS realistically not going to be able to afford a SoL by himself. A fleet of 20 people on the other hand, with 2 islands, constant convoys and a business in a national port, should have no problem maintaining for example:
- 1st rates x1
- 3rd Rates x4
- 4th rates x7
- Frigates x5
- Brig x3


A lot of these ideas aren't great, you may not agree or you may, or you may like the concept of some, or you may not. Either way let me know what you think and feel free to throw more ideas on the table or tweak these! Cheers!

Edited May 6, 2015 by Richard Bolitho

[Comandante Gómez]

Really interesting. 

 

Dimplomacy is what I like most. It's too late here in Spain. I will write some ideas and reflexions one of these days. Need to think of your idea.

 

Thank you, Bolitho.

[Justme]

Some interesting ideas, like them

[Comandante Gómez]

Thinking with attention on your lines I realized that all your ideas have a deep landscape of development. Not only for the complex of the matter of diplomacy ( for example ), but for the human resource it needs, yes.

One of the opinions shared by many of us, players of Naval Action, is that which feels NA will be a great Diplomacy based on game. Diplomacy is a complex art, beautiful for some of us ( I study International Public Law at the University), but really bored for others. It requieres, first of all, the human resources. In the other hand, time to be effective.

The Council War concept you handle is an interting feature, as the head of administration of nations. In my opinion your idea could be very useful, but needs to be less complicated. Not due to its a bad idea (its not), just because the title of the game talks about the action on the seas (Naval Action). People will join this community, in the higher percentage, by the action, not by the diplomacy aspect. Thats why I repeat that an ingame diplomacy feature must be more easy to handle (and faster too).

Anyway, I support your concept of War Councils but with the exception that they should not be based on fleets, because of fleets are the direct product of the national administration respect the war enviroment (in my opinion). There should be based on districts, provinces, sectors or islands. Why? Lets develop this difference:

As all of us know, the people's organization is a hard to reach work. In some points, if each island gives you a certain 'seats' on the War Council, will be more easy to capture an island than organizating a mass of persons. Perhaps we need to develop better the concept of Faction, what is it?, its dimensions? Its limits? Do we must understand it only as the face of a determinated country? (Spanish faction, Sweden faction, French faction, etc) or just an association of people could build a faction with his own perspectives?

As we can analyze from the forum of Naval Action, most of people are joining others to construct a 'faction' wich represents a determinated nation (British, French nation, ..., etc). We dont have to refuse the posibility to see many factions wich look for control the commercial aspect in determinated zones. Anyway, whatever the faction you make or join, it should be based on zones, port, cities, provinces or whatever the game map will be divided.

Perhaps more of the problems about the interaction between countries, clans or factions born from the idea that people think we will control the highest nation organization plane in the game, that there wont be nothing over us about the diplomacy aspect, no one to obey, no higher law to recognize and respect (apartvof ASUL that is an out game codification).

About the lines I have just written, before establishing any concept, we need to establish a scale of powers and organizations. There should be an IA code that decides where to center the war resources and forces, for example, to avoid any problem that my result of the high difference of number between people who will sail for one or other nation or flag. If all players can handle and push the strings of Dimplomacy from their highest position, there will be an indirect discrimination to the small number nation in front the higher ones, that will result in the need of making constantly and permanently alliances between the small number nations to try to establish their hegemony wherever they are.

Thats why, to resume, we need a kind of IA diplomacy concept, followed by the human controlled factions wich move their pieces according to the needs of the IA, followed by the War Councils of each nation, controlled by humans and with the potestas to control the administration of the faction and needs (fleets are whithin these concepts); then, subsidiary system of ports and zones administrated each one by each IA controlled nation (implemented by now I think in the OW), basing the war and the naval action on the battles and wars trying to conquering each enemy port, movements originated and requested, as I said before, by the highes control: the IA nation system.

With this, when we join in the game, a kind of message in the nation menu could say "Spain needs fleets on Santo Domingo coasts to defend the city of the British pretentions. Battle will start at the 22:00 hrs GMT+1. WANT TO JOIN IN?" if you click Yes, for example, you can read in other menu " 1st rate ships slots are occupied by now, choose a ship of lower level". Thats a simple example for a really hard to develop matter.

That is my opinion. Salute!

[Comandante Gómez]

Continuing the scale of power concept, developing it better, from top to the bottom we have:

1. IA partially controlled diplomacy system wich requests help to their factions to keep the control in determinated zones of the map.

2. Cities and ports wich are the base of operation of the factions. These cities can allow an indeterminated number of factions, but only a determinated number of them (the most important) will have the 'diplomacy points', concept we will develop just below of these lines.

3. Factions or Clans, administrated by their War/Administration Councils, where the clan's decitions are taken by the human members of the clan (here, faction and clan are the same thig). For example, in Martinica there are based five factions, A, B, C, D and E. The faction/clan A, C and E are the most important because of a certain war, production, administration and/or commercial aspects that give them some kind of ranking. Only A, C and E have, each one, a certain number of seats. These seats gives them the posibility to use them as voting points for the IA partially controlled decitions that constantly request help about "where to center our forces? On the North or on the West of the map?" For example with this we have certain posibility to control the nations movements.

4. War, merchants and explorer fleets that works together to keep the control, repart the resources between the controlled cities and ports, and to look for and discover new resources fonts as gold or silver mines for the faction, city and nation.

What do you think?

[scepo]

I assume by IA you mean AI, appologies if I am missing something english is not my first language.

I disagree that nations should be artificially balanced, in my view ai nations should have controll of a limited safe zone that can not be conquered. Outside of this zones players should be defacto rulers. For historical accuracy some sort of colonial province lingo could be used since colonies had some independance that should be exagarated in the game to add to gameplay and eliminate the need for complicated ai diplomacy systems. Player colonies should be able to ally with each other within the same mother nation with perhaps ability to change their allegiance or even becoming independent through rebellion. AI should not have a say in what a player colony does because AI is by its very nature predictably procedural unless devs can spend millions on it.

Main profit should come from investing in player ports that are conquerable. there needs to be a need to transfer goods to other ports to trade. That will limit the passive profit by the ammount of goods that players can transport while making controlling to much space impractical making space for smaller player groups to control some territories of their own. Announced random resource spawns would make for ever shifting borders and wars for the most profitable ports. Most expensive ports would be shipyards in which 1st rate sols could be produced.

Players do what they are rewarded for and virtual property is what keeps them in the game provided game is actually fun and NA is definitively fun. This for me would be the image of a open world sandbox in which i would stay for years.

I will make another post soon to touch on fleets.

Edited May 5, 2015 by scepo

[Comandante Gómez]

Agree with you. 

[Lyric]

Absolutely agree with your points. They are a great build on the idea.

 

1. Gomez - Instead of Fleet size dictating how many seats on the Faction Council Fleets get, how many islands dictates it. Great. A Much better, and more efficient idea.

2. Scepo - Invulnerable Nation regions with players controlling outside of this.  Also agree with this.  I think you can incorporate that into Gomez's idea of the AI run nation sending your faction missions based on where your faction is based.

 

For instance, If your Faction island is based in Province A and any islands in province A come under attack, you will receive letter from the AI Nation's Admiralty requesting your aid there.  There is no point sending you ships a million miles away for a mission which leaves your own islands/provinces vulnerable, unless of course the reward is quite substantial from a combined armada of fleets.

 

 

 

Gomez - Factions or Clans, administrated by their War/Administration Councils, where the clan's decitions are taken by the human members of the clan (here, faction and clan are the same thig). For example, in Martinica there are based five factions, A, B, C, D and E. The faction/clan A, C and E are the most important because of a certain war, production, administration and/or commercial aspects that give them some kind of ranking. Only A, C and E have, each one, a certain number of seats. These seats gives them the posibility to use them as voting points for the IA partially controlled decitions that constantly request help about "where to center our forces? On the North or on the West of the map?" For example with this we have certain posibility to control the nations movements.

 

This is one thing I slightly disagree with. I think you were good in originally suggesting seats are gained by amount of Islands, but I don't believe voting points for key matters should be implemented. That I believe needs to be simple co-ordination between the Faction Leaders. It can be unofficial and still work.  If a fleet realizes they have seats but they are being heard, they always have the option to find another faction.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Richard Bolitho

[scepo]

I assume you are talking about quests. I believe that quests should be limited to safe area, players concerned with territory will most likely be to busy patrolling and fighting other players to grind npc-s, at least i hope. There is no real need to have nation dictate where players should go since strategic decisions of what to defend and what to attack will be highly confidential and planned weeks in advance.

[Lyric]

Would be interested to get admin's opinion on this.

[Inkompetent]

One thing that I think is quite pivotal for this is: What is considered a "fleet"? Can a fleet be one person? Can it be 100? Should it be limited to 25 (i.e. maximum size of a fairly matched battle)?

 

Overall I think the idea looks nice, but since I don't know what a fleet is in this context it makes it hard to judge each idea.