Speed is a Problem

[Troianii]

I don't want to knock this game. I really recommend it to friends as one of the best games out there - it's not as exciting as Total War Warhammer, but the UG:CW is rocksteady. The first few hours of games like Warhammer are better, bet they get old quick, and this one doesn't. And I'm just saying this because what I'm about to say sounds like a series of complaints, but I want to know if I'm missing something *or* note these for improvements. This game is great, but with a few changes it could be even better. 

#1. Speed. I've noticed this mostly with cavalry. Infantry have a "run" button, and double-clicking works too. I've had cavalry get charged where I can see the charge coming from beyond their firing range (with some a long-gun, not pistols). But when I click on terrain to get them to get out of there, they move slower than the charging infantry. I've seen this happen time and again, and it is really frustrating. 
    I also recently noticed the problem with skirmishers. I had a unit of skirmishers with sharps rifles - crappy range, but very fast reload. They engaged other skirmishers. The enemy shot, my guys shot, the enemy backed off, the enemy shot, the enemy backed off, the enemy shot, the enemy backed off, the enemy shot.... They fell back and shot again and again, and my guys never got a shot off. This just doesn't make sense - my guys were going so damn slow, and the enemy was so much faster. 
    I've also had this issue with supplies. In the confederate campaign (I go back and forth), during the ambush battle, as soon as I approach the Union supply wagons move east like they're running - my infantry that got past the Union infantry were barely going any faster and couldn't keep up with the wagons. Then I capture them, and they move the same mud-slow speed that my artillery and ammo wagons go. 

#2. I've had a few times where charging doesn't work. The most frustrating is when I double click (for a charge), and my guys will run a short bit towards them and then just exchange fire (even when their morale and condition are high), or they'll back off a long ways, and then do the same. 
    I've also had the issue with cavalry. I'd double click, they wouldn't charge, so then I clicked the charge button, and instead of attacking the unit I previously had them target (which was also still the closest unit), this cavalry unit of about 600 with low-end musketoons charged into an infantry unit of nearly 3000, with two cavalry units with about 700 each. Lame. 
    I've also had issues where I click once and units seem to charge - it's often not really a charge, but they'll just walk into melee. This was particularly annoying when I had one unit do it, Skirmishers with scoped rifles (Whitworths?).
 
#3. This one is kind of a recommendation, but I think that during camp any changes made after the most recent battle should be retractable - so if I refill one infantry unit, then realize I don't have enough to refill 2 units and so would prefer to change the firearm of one and refill the other, so that I can sell off the excess arms, rather than buying some and then selling some of the same gun (which is just $ disappearing). I save a lot in this game because of issues like that, but its frustrating to see when I forgot to save and then need to back up. 

#4. This one is a mix. I've always loved the Henry Rifle, and when I was a kid dreaming about things weird nerds do, I dreamed about what it would have been like for a regiment in the Civil War to fight with those or something similar, repeating. I'd buy them at every chance in game in one campaign, but couldn't ever stock up enough to get an infantry unit armed with them. Does anyone know if in game production will increase later (I've gotten to Gettysburg in game)? Also, I kind of think the "shop" should be more open. Realistically, I imagine the people who ordered weapons for troops would be placing orders for guns to be made, not just seeing what's on market and ready to sell at the moment. And with the amount of time between battles, I figure that those "orders" should have enough time to fill, such that you should (in game) just buy what you need in camp, no maximum.

[Troianii]

I'd also want to add one thing - the Henry Rifle was used as a long range rifle, I'm not sure why it's marked as being a relatively fairly short range rifle, it should probably be up closer to but still below the Hunter rifle in range. 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

11 hours ago, Troianii said:

I don't want to knock this game. I really recommend it to friends as one of the best games out there - it's not as exciting as Total War Warhammer, but the UG:CW is rocksteady. The first few hours of games like Warhammer are better, bet they get old quick, and this one doesn't. And I'm just saying this because what I'm about to say sounds like a series of complaints, but I want to know if I'm missing something *or* note these for improvements. This game is great, but with a few changes it could be even better. 

#1. Speed. I've noticed this mostly with cavalry. Infantry have a "run" button, and double-clicking works too. I've had cavalry get charged where I can see the charge coming from beyond their firing range (with some a long-gun, not pistols). But when I click on terrain to get them to get out of there, they move slower than the charging infantry. I've seen this happen time and again, and it is really frustrating. 
    I also recently noticed the problem with skirmishers. I had a unit of skirmishers with sharps rifles - crappy range, but very fast reload. They engaged other skirmishers. The enemy shot, my guys shot, the enemy backed off, the enemy shot, the enemy backed off, the enemy shot, the enemy backed off, the enemy shot.... They fell back and shot again and again, and my guys never got a shot off. This just doesn't make sense - my guys were going so damn slow, and the enemy was so much faster. 
    I've also had this issue with supplies. In the confederate campaign (I go back and forth), during the ambush battle, as soon as I approach the Union supply wagons move east like they're running - my infantry that got past the Union infantry were barely going any faster and couldn't keep up with the wagons. Then I capture them, and they move the same mud-slow speed that my artillery and ammo wagons go. 

#2. I've had a few times where charging doesn't work. The most frustrating is when I double click (for a charge), and my guys will run a short bit towards them and then just exchange fire (even when their morale and condition are high), or they'll back off a long ways, and then do the same. 
    I've also had the issue with cavalry. I'd double click, they wouldn't charge, so then I clicked the charge button, and instead of attacking the unit I previously had them target (which was also still the closest unit), this cavalry unit of about 600 with low-end musketoons charged into an infantry unit of nearly 3000, with two cavalry units with about 700 each. Lame. 
    I've also had issues where I click once and units seem to charge - it's often not really a charge, but they'll just walk into melee. This was particularly annoying when I had one unit do it, Skirmishers with scoped rifles (Whitworths?).
 
#3. This one is kind of a recommendation, but I think that during camp any changes made after the most recent battle should be retractable - so if I refill one infantry unit, then realize I don't have enough to refill 2 units and so would prefer to change the firearm of one and refill the other, so that I can sell off the excess arms, rather than buying some and then selling some of the same gun (which is just $ disappearing). I save a lot in this game because of issues like that, but its frustrating to see when I forgot to save and then need to back up. 

#4. This one is a mix. I've always loved the Henry Rifle, and when I was a kid dreaming about things weird nerds do, I dreamed about what it would have been like for a regiment in the Civil War to fight with those or something similar, repeating. I'd buy them at every chance in game in one campaign, but couldn't ever stock up enough to get an infantry unit armed with them. Does anyone know if in game production will increase later (I've gotten to Gettysburg in game)? Also, I kind of think the "shop" should be more open. Realistically, I imagine the people who ordered weapons for troops would be placing orders for guns to be made, not just seeing what's on market and ready to sell at the moment. And with the amount of time between battles, I figure that those "orders" should have enough time to fill, such that you should (in game) just buy what you need in camp, no maximum.

#1. Welcome to the fine line between historical realism and game balance and playability.  

#2. A 'Charge' is conditional on fatigue and morale. If your troops are physically exhausted, or their morale is shaken, they will not engage in melee. They will perform exactly as you describe, They run up, fire, and then stand there. 

#3. Many people would agree, but unfortunately to go back into the camp may not be feasible at this point. I am only guessing, but to change any of the code in camp would affect almost the entire game. The only solution I can provide is to save your build early and often so you can go back if something doesn't work. Personally, I would love to see a few tweaks to camp, but I'm uncertain it is possible at this point. Just setting your expectations appropriately. 

#4. Very few units were completely equipped with Henry rifles; only about 1,700 were even purchased by any government during the war. They don't really appear in a historical context until Little Bighorn. However, around 7,000 were purchased by individual soldiers or their family to give them the best chance possible of coming home. They were a soldiers 'Jewelry', a prized possession if you could get your hands on one by buying or capturing it, but keeping it equipped with ammunition is another story altogether. 

[Wright29]

Double-clicking charge has a sort of cooldown. Your units may accidentally engage in melee if you 1) give them a normal move order and an enemy lies in the path, 2) right click and enemy unit and sometimes your unit will chase that unit regardless of how far back it moves, or 3) side-stepping in crowded areas and they'll step into an enemy unit. 

The speed thing is a balance issue. Cavalry was capable of wrecking ridiculous amounts of enemy artillery, skirmishers, and supply wagons becaue it's pretty hard to make an AI that recognizes the concept of a reserve to protect vulnerable units.

Detached skirmishers are OP with their increased speed, quick morale and condition regen, and flanking flexibility. Recently due to a patch, they can also take on enemy melee cavalry, which is just plain stupid. 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

17 minutes ago, Wright29 said:

Double-clicking charge has a sort of cooldown. Your units may accidentally engage in melee if you 1) give them a normal move order and an enemy lies in the path, 2) right click and enemy unit and sometimes your unit will chase that unit regardless of how far back it moves, or 3) side-stepping in crowded areas and they'll step into an enemy unit. 

The speed thing is a balance issue. Cavalry was capable of wrecking ridiculous amounts of enemy artillery, skirmishers, and supply wagons becaue it's pretty hard to make an AI that recognizes the concept of a reserve to protect vulnerable units.

Detached skirmishers are OP with their increased speed, quick morale and condition regen, and flanking flexibility. Recently due to a patch, they can also take on enemy melee cavalry, which is just plain stupid. 

I had to turn off 'double click charge'. My trigger finger is too quick, I charged WAAAAAAY more times than I wanted to when I just wanted a unit to turn and fire at another unit. 

[Troianii]

1 hour ago, Andre Bolkonsky said:

#1. Welcome to the fine line between historical realism and game balance and playability.  

#2. A 'Charge' is conditional on fatigue and morale. If your troops are physically exhausted, or their morale is shaken, they will not engage in melee. They will perform exactly as you describe, They run up, fire, and then stand there. 

#3. Many people would agree, but unfortunately to go back into the camp may not be feasible at this point. I am only guessing, but to change any of the code in camp would affect almost the entire game. The only solution I can provide is to save your build early and often so you can go back if something doesn't work. Personally, I would love to see a few tweaks to camp, but I'm uncertain it is possible at this point. Just setting your expectations appropriately. 

#4. Very few units were completely equipped with Henry rifles; only about 1,700 were even purchased by any government during the war. They don't really appear in a historical context until Little Bighorn. However, around 7,000 were purchased by individual soldiers or their family to give them the best chance possible of coming home. They were a soldiers 'Jewelry', a prized possession if you could get your hands on one by buying or capturing it, but keeping it equipped with ammunition is another story altogether. 

#1: thanks?
#2. I wrote, " (even when their morale and condition are high) ". It's possible they just charged such a distance that that had changed and I wasn't paying as close attention to how far their morale/condition dropped, but I didn't think it'd drop that far. 
#3. I don't know coding, but I figured that wouldn't be too complicated a thing to do - for those who actually know how to do it. If I'm wrong, well, then I'm wrong and that's just too bad. 
#4. Sure, I'm aware. But JEB Stuart wasn't an infantry commander, the Union didn't win Bull Run, etc. - part of the fun of the game is changing history. And I think this one makes sense - if the Union army wanted a thousand Henry Rifles, they would have gotten a thousand Henry Rifles, but they chose not to buy them because they were expensive. I think that same thing would keep players from getting too many of them (they're around $100 if I remember right, in game). Really, with the amount of money players get, is it likely a player would get 10,000 Henry Rifles in their army? I really doubt it. 

But really, I'm impressed with this game even as it is as a work in progress. It's been hard to find something modern to fit the feel of CWG&CWG2, or Sid Meier's Gettysburg. I'd love to see them move on to another era after this with the same engine - could do a Napoleonic Wars kind of thing, or something similar. 

[Troianii]

42 minutes ago, Andre Bolkonsky said:

I had to turn off 'double click charge'. My trigger finger is too quick, I charged WAAAAAAY more times than I wanted to when I just wanted a unit to turn and fire at another unit. 

I've had that happen before, and the cooldown makes it pretty frustrating. You've got to time those charges pretty well, and if you can't charge that makes it difficult.

[Troianii]

1 hour ago, Wright29 said:

Double-clicking charge has a sort of cooldown. Your units may accidentally engage in melee if you 1) give them a normal move order and an enemy lies in the path, 2) right click and enemy unit and sometimes your unit will chase that unit regardless of how far back it moves, or 3) side-stepping in crowded areas and they'll step into an enemy unit. 

The speed thing is a balance issue. Cavalry was capable of wrecking ridiculous amounts of enemy artillery, skirmishers, and supply wagons becaue it's pretty hard to make an AI that recognizes the concept of a reserve to protect vulnerable units.

Detached skirmishers are OP with their increased speed, quick morale and condition regen, and flanking flexibility. Recently due to a patch, they can also take on enemy melee cavalry, which is just plain stupid. 

the normal move order might be a different problem I've been having. I think what I've had happens is that I click right on the enemy unit but it doesn't register the enemy unit, so my guys slow-walk into melee. Had that happen with scoped rifles... was pretty frustrating when those rifles cost so much. 

Maybe it's the difficulty level, but I've noticed the ai doing a pretty good job of protecting its vulnerable units, the only real exception being the ambush, but that's just because the ai only has 2 brigades at its disposal to start the battle. 

I agree that skirmishers are OP. I've noticed, in one of the early battles where the Confederates are attacked and have fences to defend, one of my units defending a fence that is roughly L-shaped gets attacked from multiple sides by a few skirmisher units and their morale breaks like nothing. 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

46 minutes ago, Troianii said:

#1: thanks?
#2. I wrote, " (even when their morale and condition are high) ". It's possible they just charged such a distance that that had changed and I wasn't paying as close attention to how far their morale/condition dropped, but I didn't think it'd drop that far. 
#3. I don't know coding, but I figured that wouldn't be too complicated a thing to do - for those who actually know how to do it. If I'm wrong, well, then I'm wrong and that's just too bad. 
#4. Sure, I'm aware. But JEB Stuart wasn't an infantry commander, the Union didn't win Bull Run, etc. - part of the fun of the game is changing history. And I think this one makes sense - if the Union army wanted a thousand Henry Rifles, they would have gotten a thousand Henry Rifles, but they chose not to buy them because they were expensive. I think that same thing would keep players from getting too many of them (they're around $100 if I remember right, in game). Really, with the amount of money players get, is it likely a player would get 10,000 Henry Rifles in their army? I really doubt it. 

But really, I'm impressed with this game even as it is as a work in progress. It's been hard to find something modern to fit the feel of CWG&CWG2, or Sid Meier's Gettysburg. I'd love to see them move on to another era after this with the same engine - could do a Napoleonic Wars kind of thing, or something similar. 

#2 If you want a quick punch, order the unit to hold fire, then charge. The units will almost always -- assuming a round is in the chamber, just in real life since the advent of linear tactics -- close and volley fire before engaging with bayonet. 

Personally, I time my charge for right after the last volley is fired. If possible. The morale shock helps charge tremendously.