[J & P Rebalance Mod by JonnyH13 and Pandakraut 05/06/2023 1.28.4]

42 minutes ago, pandakraut said:

In this case, I would definitely recommend using the configs to adjust the difficulty down a bit. The base difficulty in the mod is not tuned around that style of play, so this is exactly the type of situation the configs are great for. With some adjustments I think it will work out just fine though.

Determining when they can't win is very difficult to actually implement unfortunately. Especially combined with the AI not being to retreat off the map(seems like it should be easy to add, but I've gone in circles for months on it) and the way some of the battles are structured. For example, if the player inflicts very high casualties in the initial phase of a battle, should the AI give up even though once the phase ends they would outnumber the player? If you can write something that works in that case, will it work in every other case? This is part of why we added the surrender/shatter at 0 morale system. It's not quite the same, but it does tend to speed up the mop up process of battles quite a bit.

There is also only so much control over the AI decision making that I've been able to figure out. Something as seemingly simple as 'wait for multiple units to regroup before advancing towards the objective again' is completely beyond what I can change at the moment for example.

Early on, it tends to be better to invest in points that let you grow your army rather than preserve it. Politics, econ, or training usually while keeping AO as high as needed.

It's hard to say where exactly the line is between MG and BG with the configs. On BG you tend to need to use something like 1.5 or higher to try and get up to the MG values. BG scaling up will still be easier than MG scaling down either way though. On BG the battle rewards and weapon recovery rates are higher, the AIs weapons worse, and the AI uses a more less aggressive AI. Officers and veterans also cost less on that difficulty.

It sounds like you're doing decently, so I'd lean towards lowering MG a bit rather than scaling up BG.

This all sounds reasonable! Hopefully my input didn't come off as complaining because I do really enjoy the mod, thanks very much for your effort with it

 

[J & P Rebalance Mod by JonnyH13 and Pandakraut 05/06/2023 1.28.4]

@PaulD @pandakraut Thanks for your replies, very much appreciated!

7 hours ago, PaulD said:

Panda can help you with any config suggestions.

Just a few ideas...  This is just how I do it. I'll be posting a video series in a week or so that will include this.  I'm  always envious of the guys that can fight this in a more traditional way, but when I do that I end up with 15k casualties.  This way is at least entertaining for me while reducing casualties.

In all the battles prior to Shiloh you pretty much have all of your units on the field before the heavy action starts.  Take 1st Bull Run as an example. Assuming that you wait for all of your units to be on the field prior to assaulting Matthews Hill, then you have 100% of your forces fighting about 30% of the CSA forces. When the CSA falls back to Henry Hill they get another 30%, but you still out man then 100% to 60%.  They don't get the last 40% of their forces until after you take Henry Hill - and you've probably eliminated nearly all of their troops by then, so it is never really a fair fight.

At Shiloh, everything is reversed. In overall number of troops, you probably have the bigger army (your army plus the allied units). However, you only get about 9 brigades to start while the CSA gets about 40% of their forces, then you get 4 brigades of reinforcements.  When phase two begins the remaining 60% of the CSA take the field and you get another 10 units followed by 4 or 5 reinforcements.  Phase three starts when you are told to fall back to the Hornet's nest - you'll pretty much get the rest of your army along with 3 or 4 allied units, but the balance of the allied force will not arrive until the next day.  So, only about 55% of your total combined force will be facing 100% of the CSA for a substantial time...   add in the fact that the CSA is much more experienced (more stars/perks) and has bigger units, and its a tough fight.

The AIscalingSizeMultiplier can give you some relief, but the AI is still going to deploy all of its forces before you.

I use a "mobile" force strategy here.  Have you noticed which units deploy in each phase?  With some testing you can identify which units are deploying at each phase so you can predict where your units take the field - I can tell you my best guess if it would help. 

I deploy mostly skirmishers and cavalry in the first two phases with infantry in the reinforcement spots. I end up disbanding some skirmishers after this battle because I don't need that many, but they are very useful here. Artillery are slow and unless you know how to micromanage them to get them out of harm, they are not worth having until phase three. CSA charges will run down your artillery with little difficulty.  I use hit and run tactics to slow the CSA down. I also snake my CAV deep into the south to raid enemy supply wagons and artillery - in phase one you can do this easily, but staying to the left of the screen helps. In phase two try to stay to the far right because the CSA force marching north is huge. The CSA infantry tends to get ahead of its arty, so you  will find targets of opportunity.  I do this in both phase one and phase two.  Many players outright refuse to fight phase two and they just immediately pull their units north and to the right to give up the VPs - fighting this phase puts about 60% of the total CSA forces up against 15 of your brigades, its very one sided.

I setup all of my artillery to deploy at the start of phase three, along with the rest of my infantry.  I do NOT, however, attempt to hold the hornet's nest - the CSA can have it and giving it to them will NOT end the phase early. Putting two units in the fortifications can help provide cover for your retreating units moving north. There is no benefit to trying to keep it once everyone is clear. So, I setup a defensive perimeter all along the northern boarder of the map in the wooded areas. Let the CSA come to you and ALL of your arty will be in place to support your infantry. The 3 or 4 allied units are a decent size but have no stars/perks. I use them to backup my infantry and to countercharge the CSA just before they reach my lines as a meat-shield so the CSA doesn't blow through and take out my guns.  

In the meantime, my CAV and most of my skirmishers should actually be behind enemy lines - the units from phase one coming in from the left, and the units from phase two coming in from the right.  Again, taking out targets of opportunity.  You can use skirmishers to bait CSA infantry units to come back south to engage your skirmishers - If you can get 4 or 5 (or more) skirmishers firing into one enemy infantry brigade you will cause morale damage even though you are not killing a lot.  Once you get them to route your CAV may be able to force a shatter or surrender before they need to disengage.  Basically, my southern force is just harassing the CSA main body because every brigade I cause to move back south is one less attacking my defensive perimeter and every gun I destroy is one less shooting at my guys.

Do not take back any of the VPs with your CAV and skirmishers during this phase because it may just prolong the timer.  Once this phase ends Pittsburgh landing will open up. Now, I have won the battle here without falling back to Pittsburgh Landing, but I don't advise it for two reasons. One, you'll likely take more casualties than if you strategically fall back to the landing - send back your most damaged units first, then get your arty moving, then your infantry. Once CSA realizes you are falling back the AI can get pretty "chargy" so once your arty is limbered and seems out of harms way you can get all of your infantry moving back at once.  Obviously, put your healthiest units into the fortifications and rotate in units as needed.  Two, if you end the battle early - so that the other allied forces never arrive - then you don't get any of their weapons after the battle.  They have to take the field for you to get a percentage of their weapons after the battle.

My last bit of advice - when running down arty and supply wagons with your CAV, keep an eye on the little strategic map in the lower right corner. I've found that very often enemy units will appear on the strategic map before you can see them on the battlefield.  It sucks when your CAV just get to a target only to get flanked by a force you couldn't see, then take a bunch of damage before you can get them to disengage. Sometimes the strategic map can save you some heartache.

Shiloh has actually gotten to be a pretty fun battle for me playing this way.  It's MG - you are going to take damage and may even lose some gun batteries or have units shatter - but it is manageable and the better you get at it the more fun it becomes. Good luck

These are very sound tactical suggestions! Unfortunately they clash with my playstyle, since I try to avoid making decisions based on foreknowledge of the historical context. That precludes things like specializing the troop mix for particular phases of the upcoming battle - each of my divisions attempts to be relatively balanced (1 battery, 1 skirmisher/cav, the rest infantry). I also avoid "mopping up" AI troops trapped at map borders, etc, because that's just an artificial construct of the game (and isn't fun).

So in Shiloh, the most I allow myself to do is hold position until it's clear that the enemy force is overwhelming, then fall back to a more defensive position. Unfortunately the game limits this since the map is severely restricted for a number of hours - an engagement is forced where 3-star 4k brigades of confederates are able to charge a marathon distance through woods and streams and rout at least one brigade, even under double flanking fire and close range artillery - the followup attack is basically unmanageable. I feel like that initial effort is unrealistic, even for the best of troops. Can only imagine what Pickett's charge would be like later on...

 

3 hours ago, pandakraut said:

We've added some logic to encourage the AI to be more likely to charge multiple units when it does decide to charge. It doesn't always work, but it's a bit more consistent at least. This logic can also take some time to really get going, so it works better on higher difficulties where it's harder to quickly break the first charger.

Part of the issue here is that we can make it more common, but we want to avoid the early days of beta where the AI just always charged every time, which tends to enforce specific playstyles.

The config modifiers you proposed are probably a good starting point, though .75 for size might be a bit much. But give it a try and you can always tweak the values as you go.

Here is another campaign you can check out for tips as well

 

IIRC the main issue is when, IMO, the AI should know it can't win and should just stop attacking. E.G. in the very first battle, 2nd phase, once the confederates' fancy train is pushed back and the initial bonzai charge has failed, idk how it thinks a second attack in exactly the same manner has a chance of working since they've fewer soldiers and artillery. I saw the same issue at river crossing and logan's crossroads... repeated attacks in the same place and manner as the initial one, but with fewer troops, artillery, and cohesion. EDIT2: Some of these followup attacks are truly baffling, since only one or two brigades are sent forward, and slaughtered - this is what I was referring to in the original post.

Noted on the modifier, I'll start out with .85 for both size and experience scaling, I think. I guess that will land me somewhere between BG and MG? I'll also give that video a watch for tips, perhaps I'm putting my career points in the wrong places? I started out getting myself over the "basic" recon hump and then splitting points between medicine and army organization to slowly grow the army and retain veterans, but I've consistently got a lot of leftover manpower.

Thanks again!

EDIT: Maybe what I should be doing is playing on MG and increasing the scaling a bit?

[J & P Rebalance Mod by JonnyH13 and Pandakraut 05/06/2023 1.28.4]

Question for @pandakraut and others with experience, trying to tailor my experience a bit:

I'm getting my ass handed to me on MG. I'm hopelessly outnumbered and out-experienced at Shiloh... it's all I can do to continually retreat and form solid double battle lines but confederate units charge marathon distances to wipe out my brigades, even when under fire from both flanks and getting smashed by napoleons at close range.

On BG, though, the game was far too easy... AI continually attacks my lines with one or two brigades and gets slaughtered (this actually happens on MG, too, but they have so many men that they actually grind out wins, taking 50-100% more casualties than me).

I see that there are config files I can tweak, though, and am looking for a nice middle ground. Specifically, I'd like to make the following two changes:

1. Encourage the AI not to continually do piecemeal bonzai charges against my strong positions (maybe once or twice if they're being aggressive is fine, but preferably they'd do it in force so as to have a chance for success)
2. Limit the extreme size/experience advantage of the confederates

I might be able to solve #2 with the following settings, wdyt?

AIscalingSizeMultiplier, 0.75
AIscalingExperienceMultiplier, 0.85

No idea what to do about #1 though - any tips appreciated, thanks!

And of course, thanks for this great mod! Love the UI improvements, game pace changes