Sju Sjösjuka Sjömän
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Posts posted by Sju Sjösjuka Sjömän
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Reading DRUNK motivation, I don't see immediate reason for their unhappiness. Yes they were attacking PvP in danish waters regularly, everyone was used to it. But attacking our ports was uncalled for.
The ammount of hate that we recieve for doing PvP.
That's one of the reasons, and the largest one in my eyes, for our unhappiness.
Regarding the port battle, once again, we attacked after the danish fleet attacked sweden. We thought quickly and returned fire, effectivly.
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Nope. Read my post again.
The great, skilfull, "behind enemy lines" work was performed yesterday by members of KF and HRE.
- Dutch nation is actually at war with Sweden so at least it was "behind ENEMY lines". Every Dutch captain will report them in nation chat and will try to attack them - but they managed to skip our patrols.
- Dutch nation lost a Pavel(sunk) and Victory(capped, which is twice better) and several Frigate class ships - it was useful for RVR. To cap enemy 1st rate and sank a 2nd in a 10-min sail from enemy's Capital - that's a huge success
- It was really skillful and unexpected raid. Most of us were simply not ready for it (Myself was couple-hour sail away in Island Harbour with used TP).
- it actually hurt - each 1st rate counts in this war. In one raid we lost one and enemy acquired one.
Now compare it with what DRUNKs do:
- They are not attacking an enemy. There are no clan tags in OW. I suppose a lot of Danish players just think "We have a peace with Swedes. We shouldn't attack these ships.". At least that's what I do when encounter French or Danish ship.I don't attack every Danish or French ship to check it's clan tag. I don't report them in chat and ignore other platyer's reports about Danish and French ships. So practically DRUNKs are using false flag - typical PIRATE tactic
- They are not hurting Danish in any way. They are hurting only lone mostly PVE people. They haven't sunk any valued Danish SOL(at least I haven't heard of it). But they sank a lot of player traders. So they are going only for an easy prey - again, Pirate tactics.
- Danish aren't in war with Sweden. This means there would be no attack on Swedish ports, no patrols sent. Hence - DRUNK is not benefiting in Sweden RVR in any way. And if your "work behind enemy lines" doesn't benefit your nation in RVR - that's just PIRACY again.
DRUNK members claim they are underappreciated by their nation, but it all comes from the simple fact: they claim to be fighting for the glory of Sweden, but actually their fights are neither glorious nor useful for Sweden nation in RVR.
But DRUNK represent the Pirate faction like it should be implemented in game. Hit and run tactics, easy prey, and pure self-gain motives. So best move for them is just reroll and do all the same things but under their true flag.
You've done it once, maybe twice. Maybe three times.
We go deep into enemy waters every single day with our fleet, multiple times. We go to the danes and battle, then to the south to let the danes cool down and disorient them of our whereabouts, in the south we take down french. Then back up north because of the previously stated reason.
You see it as cowardness.
I see it as playing smart, and if I may quote;
If I were the Swedish council I would want use drunk as a weapon, a group of guys willing to take risks and go where most wouldn't. They don't always win but what a pain in the arse of any enemy they must surely be.
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I wonder if it would be interesting to let players form their own nations. This would make the game more like EVE but might actually be better.
I could simply start "Empire of Slamz". It's my nation. I can let you join it and I can kick you out. The alliances and wars are set by me. Don't like it? Start or join a different nation. Maybe we'll ally up but you have control over your nation and I have control over mine.
I just wonder if this game would work better as "clan based" (more like EVE) rather than "fixed team based" (more like DAOC or ESO). It would certainly solve problems like this. Maybe the "official teams" can still exist but it would give total freedom to any group that really wants to go off and do their own thing. Roleplayers could still form offshoot groups like "West India Squadron" that is a clan-nation that happens to be allied with Britain but the rules of their nation and therefore their ports are totally in their control.
Forcing people into fixed teams -- and then having a bunch of teams on an imbalanced map -- is going to invite a lot of trouble.
Interesting thought, I do not however know if it's the best solution. But it's a good one for sure.
Just a thought, do you believe that we'd need more ports in the map in order to make this happen?
I'm affraid there would be too many port less clans.. but maybe they would be able to use the neutral ports I suppose..?
Nobody would have given a damn if Captain Soandso of the HMS Carebear wanted peace.
Actually made me laugh, almost spilling my coke.
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Let me resume the situation if I understand it well, Drunks from Sweden want to attack the Dane-mark Norway but the other sweden clan didnt want to and RNoN from Dane-mark Norway want to attack Sweden but the other Dans dont want to either.
Why not let Drunk and RNoN fighting each other as much as they want and bring our popcorn and watch ?
As a DRUNK, I wouldnt have a problem with that. RNON are very humble and polite and I am sure we would have a lot of good and fun fights sinking eachother.
I've never once stated that I want the entire faction of Sweden to goto war with Denmark-Norway. I've simply stated that I want to battle them. Is it really that hard to exclude us from the peace treaty and leave us alone? Just like you said.
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I can tell you how other historical world leaders have "dealt with" minorities...
This is not a game philosophy discussion. This is about power and the "right" to wield it.
Had anyone taken stock of the impact 2 small groups have had? Very little.
"But Grim, they're starting to take ports now! What if they become strong enough to hold them too?".
Power. That's all this is about.
A few "elite" groups trying to maintain a power base - and to have gone so far as to create tribunal threads.
Using fear and bullying.
Abuse in national chats.
Abuse here in forums.
And only because they have a different vision of game play. A compliant should be lodged.
If anything, I should hope that the development team makes a strong statement about the treatment of Drunk and RNON. Overall, very unacceptable by "the majority".
Hear, hear!
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If that is the only thing they want to do then that is one limitation too many. I am not even on your server and I would join Drunk on this principle alone.
Sounds to me Drunk is the most exciting clan to play with on the entire Swede team. Peace deals in general ruin the game. The elimination of PVP of any kind just makes Naval Action boring.
The one thing throughout this entire thread was no-one has even considered that Drunk may be correct. Is it even remotely possible that Drunk's position that you should keep fighting the Danes is the right one? Who cares if you lose, isn't it more fun to fight it out? Sheesh you have so many options if you lose and it isn't like the map dots are all that important anyway.
These lines made me really smile. And yes, I highlighted PvP in the original post because of just that reason. It is a PvP server so let it be just that, a PvP server.
If the Danes on your server aren't smart enough to understand who they have a deal with then your peace deal probably sucks anyway.
Which is also why I questioned the gigantic pressence of danish ships preppared for battle in both the port battle versus a swedish port (this was started before DRUNK attacked the danish port) and swedish waters in general.
Why didn't they instantly contact eachother with their diplomats as shit hit the fan?
Why are the danes being provoked by a, if I sum other comments, "known rogue clan that griefs"?
Why shit hit the fan to begin with was because a random clan less guy attacked the danish port Fort Baai, once again, why wasnt this instantly solved internally between the "kings and leaders" instead of bringing up two tribunal posts against two "known rogue clans that griefs" that hasnt even done anything wrong?
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Everyone, I've added a small paragraph on the very end of the post itself. I hope everyone can read it and honor it.
The solution is a system where the national goal is unified. Where dissent can be dealt with.
What would this system look like? We need details if we are to suggest it to the developers.
Would it be one ruler over a faction? A council of the clans with x ammount of players? A council with one representative from every clan? Faction elections where one player has one vote? Should these votes be majority by 51%? 75%? 99%? 10%? How would people refusing to follow be dealt with? How would loyalty be uphold? Why would your suggestion be good? Why would your suggestion be bad?
Details, so we can discuss and developers can think and see what the community wants.
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The in-game trolls like DRUNK and RNON can be best taken care of by ignoring them. The diplomacy update will take care of them and they will go away then...
And yet again, you do nothing but brand DRUNK and RNON for no reason what so ever. Instead of trying to achieve something better for both of us. You can obviously see that many people agree with our cause and even people who don't who can still respect us, they agree to disagree and move on. So I'll tell you the same thing I told someone else not long ago, would you like to continue this unwanted drama that does nothing but tear Sweden into two fragments or would you like to sit down here in this thread and work for a solution?
Your move.
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What is being discussed here is how to measure the power of one player over the other.
As a GAME is not a political system we must have more imagination with the help of the devs.
Please guys, stop trying to force your laws.
It would be the same as forbidding me to talk to the enemy nation players... it is ridiculous. ( yes it happened but you know me, f... that )
And this is what I've been trying to get across. There is no legit power, hence I can privateer in then name of Sweden for as much as I can.
Once again, for the 100'th time, official statement granting authority and I will follow. Untill then, no.
What is being discussed here is how to measure the power of one player over the other.
As a GAME is not a political system we must have more imagination with the help of the devs.
Please guys, stop trying to force your laws.
It would be the same as forbidding me to talk to the enemy nation players... it is ridiculous. ( yes it happened but you know me, f... that )
And this is what I've been trying to get across. There is no legit power, hence I can privateer in then name of Sweden for as much as I can.
Once again, for the 100'th time, official statement granting authority and I will follow. Untill then, no.
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I was thinking alliances could be "opt in" -- they do not automatically apply to the whole team.
Example (using made up numbers)
Swedes prime time is typically 100 players.
French prime time is typically 200 players.
The main guilds want to create an alliance.
A treaty is created. It appears in both capitals. "The undersigned agree to a peace treaty between Sweden and France."
In order to come into effect, the treaty requires 50% of the prime time population to sign it, so Sweden needs 50 signatures and France needs 100 signatures and then the treaty goes into effect only for the people who signed it.
Late-comers can sign the treaty at any time. People on the treaty can remove their name from it. They can only do this at the capitals.
If you are not signed, it does not apply to you. Unsigned French see all Swedes as enemies and vice versa.
If you are signed, it does apply to you. Signed French see all signed Swedes as friendlies and vice versa.
Signed French still see unsigned Swedes as enemies -- the treaty only applies when both people are on it.
If there is a Sweden vs France battles, unsigned people can only join their team. Signed people can join either team. This gives a way for treaties to be enforced by their own team -- basically players can police themselves. If we don't want your guild fighting the Swedes, we can follow you around and reinforce Sweden when you attack them. We can also join their side in port battles against you.
Once a treaty falls below half the number of signatures required to originally make it, the treaty is canceled.
If War & Peace is not "opt in", I think it needs to be "NPC driven".
If it's forced and player-driven, I think there will be a lot of issues.
This. This right here.
Seriously buddy, what is your real life adress? I swear to god, I'll send you a chocolate chip cookie.
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@Sju Sjösjuka Sjömän
Explanation what a Privateer is was explained above. You are no Privateers even if you claim that and repeat it over and over again. Better learn that lesson.
If that explenation is to be considered valid because there is no real goverment, then you are not the royal navy either because there is no real king.
You seem to have failed to notice that this thread was made to try and solve things, not throw shit at eachother. Want to help me solve it or continue to fight on the forums and in the global chatt?
Your move.
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When DRUNK plays Swedish privateers... GOVERNMENT pirates, as you call it, who is the current government of Sweden?
The Swedish High Council or the Clan-Leader of DRUNK?
Who is the biggest threat to Sweden currently? Denmark who is leaving us alone or the Dutch attacking our homewaters?
Your points are inconsistent with your actions. €: Thus, you are no more Swedish Privateers as you do not accept the Swedish authority of the majority. You are outlaws, rebels, traitors,... not privateers. In short: You are just pirates.
The Danes is a threat, regardless if you'd like to agree to it or not.
Regarding the Dutch, if my fleet sees a Dutch ship or fleet in Swedish waters, we will engage it. As simple as that.
Also, there is no goverment that we follow because there is none. As said, official statement and we will follow. Atleast I will.
I've said that we are a Swedish Privateer clan because we are Swedish and we are privateers, does that not make us Swedish privateers?
Well if nobody wants to give in, this will never get settled. And this will take until one of both sides gives up realy.
Well, I might be willing to give in. But I havent seen a single comment here offering us something in return.
It has to be a "give and take", not a "take". That's how diplomacy works, the very thing you guys preach.
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Even if the majority hates it, there is no reason to force them to go pirate because their actions are not against the rules. Swedes and Danes should go talk to each other and make a blacklist of swedish players which do not follow the majority so the Danish players know what to expect from this small privateer clan.
+1.
Very good.
I wouldnt mind being branded as a privateer by Denmark and publicly known. Hell, it would actually just be good. In real life, the danish goverment would warn their fleets about known privateer fleets. Their whereabouts, their operations, size, goal.. Everything.
If the larger Swedish clans decide to sell this information and actually kinda become traitors themselves, so be it.
We are Swedish privateers, we will privateer in the name of Sweden.
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OK let go, you want a right autority ? 10 devs, take 1 by nation and make them Kings, let them nominate 1 diplomate or governor in player base. Now you have one guy with the authority ! Will you follow him and the politic he'll draw for your nation ? Answer is simply NO, because you aren't playing as national and for a nation, but only as egocentric players unable to accept any authority. Stop hypocrisy mate.
I've stated it multiple times, if there is a official announcement that gives authority to one or multiple players or clans and that you are bound to follow them if you do not seek punishment, I will follow them.
But there is no authority like that for the time being, so why would I be obliged to follow them?
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And here lies the problem. What is more important to the community of Naval Action? Your personal desire to attack a Danish ship flying Swedish colors or the desire of 600 other players to play the RvR game differently and fight Britain instead of Denmark? I would argue that it is MUCH easier for you to turn pirate and fight the Danes under the black than it is for 600 other players to stop doing what they doing just because it does not suit your personal desire....
It might be the easier way to solve it, yes. But I don't seek to become a pirate nor does many members of DRUNK. We wish to be a Swedish Privateer Group.
Now, I don't know what type of diplomatic attempts have been made from Kungliga Flottans side (I keep writing Kungliga Flottan because they are the one with the most influence) to try and use us as a tool instead.
We have obviously done a very good job to damage, raid and pilage danish traders, fleets and gankers. To my understanding, I might be wrong however, there has been to attempts to ask us to do joint operations versus the targets who Kungliga Flottan see as valid ones. I would almost, note almost, happily run Privateer missions on behalf of Kungliga Flottan but I will not stop doing it to the threats that I see real because of that.
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People should not and could not care less if you go out and attack Danish ships playing the role of "Swedish privateers". But you should not expect any love for doing so and you certainly should not attack Danish ports and mess up the RvR game for the majority of your nation's citizenry using the "we just want to play the game" argument. Simple as that.
And this comes from a Dutch player that should be (ingame character) happy to see any internal conflicht within the Swedish nation.
The attack on the Danish port was launched after the attack on the Swedish port. It was a counter attack.
And I've already stated that I do not seek anyones love, agree or approval. All I seek is mutual respect. Nothing more, nothing less.
My TL;DR on the main post sums it up very very well to be honest. I don't believe that I'll become friends with everyone and that everyone will love me and share my thoughts. But I damn well believe that I am worth mutual respect, human beings alike.
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The fact you managed to upset a whole nation in 5 days of gameplay makes me wonder if the nation is the problem or if you are not so good at verbaly handling situations my friend? Seems to me you only want to fight the danes, because it upsets the people who called you a spy and have put a bounty on your head.
So what in the end however?
I want to battle danes because I like history and I live in the region where Denmark and Sweden fought countless brutal battles for control. Ofcourse I want to sail a blue and yellow flag and sink ships with a red and white flag..?!
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To who it may concern,
I am writing this response as a player not as the ingame character Hugo van Grojt, just to be clear. I am, personally, fascinated by the majority of posts in this thread and the frequent lack of logic. So let's do a proper analysis of the dilemma, trying to be as objective as possible:
The main argument presented by DRUNK and their supporters is essentially the following:
"Any player should be allowed to play the game as they see fit. Nobody should be allowed to dictate how these players play the game."
So, before we go into my argument, let's define and establish some core elements.
Let's look at the various primary ways, a player may want to play the game:
1. you want to play as a trader/crafter
2. you want to play PVE (mission running and such)
3. you want to engage in small scale open world PvP (raiding, ganking, et cetera)
4. you want to engage in port battles and SOL fighting
5. you want to participate in the RvR aspect of the game (national wars)
Additionally, let us briefly look at what the role of a clan is within the current game mechanics. By joining an ingame clan you, as a player:
1. get a clan tag in front of your name
2. get access to a clan chat and clan mail
That is it, as far as the game is concerned. Nothing more.
But what does joining a clan mean for most players? (my personal assumption!) By joining a clan,
1. you join a group of players that most likely share your interests and goals in the game
2. you give authority to the leaders/officials that the clan members elect to lead.
3. you accept that these clan leaders speak on your behalf during RvR negotiations or national council meetings - for lack of a better system.
Okay, now we have established a baseline and the core assumptions. Now, let us explore the original argument using the ingame faction Sweden and Denmark as example:
- The majority of players for each nation (organised in the biggest clans, that share a common vision) have agreed not to attack the ports of the opposing faction.
- Some smaller clans disagree with that majority decision and attack ports of the opposing faction using the argument "We just want to play the game as we see fit!"
How does the peace decision by the majority of players of each nation prohibit you from playing the game as you want?
1. you want to play as a trader/crafter - you can still do so within the confines of the ports your nation owns
2. you want to play PVE (mission running and such) - you can still do so within the confines of the territory your nation owns
3. you want to engage in small scale open world PvP (raiding, ganking, et cetera) - you can still do so, seeking out enemies that your nation is actually at war with - plenty of opportunities to be had there
4. you want to engage in port battles and SOL fighting - you can still do so, your clan or group of players is free to organise and independent attack on a port of the nation that your nation is at war with. For example, nobody will likely stop DRUNK from attacking a British port.
5. you want to participate in the RvR aspect of the game (national wars) - this is the ONLY part of the game where you are limited. If you absolutely want to wage war against the Danish/Swedish, you actually need to convince the majority of players playing the RvR game that this is the right way to go by increasing your clan member numbers or gaining support from other clans.
So, by using some logic, we have established that majority decisions concerning national wars DO NOT prevent players from playing the game as they want. Even if the majority of citizens of a nation agree on having peace between Denmark and Sweden, the players of DRUNK and other small clans still have PLENTY of opportunities to trade, PVE, small scale PvP, do port battles to their hearts' content . The only limit that DRUNK have, is that they should not attack ports that belong to the Danish nation. That is the only limitation of their gameplay experience.
My personal opinion in this case is that the interest of the many outweigh the interest of the few in this regard. National wars are a huge community effort that the majority of the citizens of each nation participate in. The enjoyment of the RvR aspect of the game by the MANY should not be nullified by the FEW using the liberty argument.
Or to use a real life example: If you absolutely feel that you can only be free if you run around outside naked, you can do so by moving to the countryside and run around in the forest all you like. But if you do that it in a city you should expect to be arrested because the majority of the city dwellers do not want to have to look at your naked ass. If you defend the right to run around naked in a city because of "freedom" or "liberty" - you are just a troll.
TL:DR
Given the assumptions above, it is my strong belief that DRUNK and their supporters do not defend the right to play the game as they want, but rather the right to troll the majority of their nation's playerbase in the RvR aspect of the game. Therefore, a backlash by that majority of players is understandable and I am personally in full support of the majority here, because that is how communities work.
Edit: spelling
A very good and mature comment.
I did read it multiple times, actually trying to completely understand and analyze your thoughts and I feel safe to say that I truely understand your points.
However, I feel the need to say that regardless of the majority vote or not in some kind of council or vote, why would the players who are against have to follow the players who are for?
One thing that many in this thread has failed to realize is that DRUNK is a privateer clan of Sweden. We are supposed to be "Swedish pirates", because that is what a Swedish privateer is... Govermental pirate.
And who would they target? Ofcourse they would target the largest threats in a attempt to demoralize, damage and slow down the enemy or/and threat.
This is exactly what DRUNK is doing, so what is truely the problem? Yes, the Peace treaty.. but again.. this treaty is founded by a false authority, so it's not relevant at all really..?
I havent spoken to anyone of my fellow captains from DRUNK since the port battle last night so I might be going out of my League now, but I would happily sit down with anyone and discuss politics. We are privateers yes, but we have still done a lot of diplomacy with the ones who have shown us mutual respect, note that I said mutual because I'm tired of people twisting words, and even seized fire upon certain Clans to my understanding.
Note though, I am not a officer of DRUNK so I cannot make any calls on my own. But I would happily listen and take it up with my leaders. Anyone from americans to privates, from danes to spanish. Whoever wants to speak, I'll listen.
Edit: I'd also like to thank you. Why? "A very good and mature comment.". And you actually try to move forward in the discussion and perhaps solve something. That was my intentions for this thread.
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I have been playing online games since they first came into existence and I can tell you from experience, most but not all guild or clan leaders have inflated egos and many are drama queens, the worst are those that name a guild or clan after themselves.
As for the division in your own nation, its down to you guys to sort out not the devs.
The split will damage your nation over time and eventually both sides will realise it and come to an arrangement one way or the other.
It seems to me everyone on that side of the world is scared of the Danes, might be these Drunk guys simply have more balls than the rest of the nation or they really are drunk lol.
Danes are a threat, yes. And I play as a Privateer of Sweden and DRUNK is a Privateer clan of Sweden. Who are we to target if not the threat? In a attempt to make them weaker, even by the slightest?
And yes, some of actually play drunk. Not even kidding. We had one drunk guy fall asleep mid combat versus a french fleet a few Days ago, almost sunk a friendly ship because his hand pressured the mouse resulting in his ship non-stop firing broadsides.We could also hear him snoar on TeamSpeak.
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"History nerd" not knowing who Horatio Nelson is? Like really?
I mostly studied older history, from the third dynasty to the begining of the medieval aera. I've studied a lot about the second world war too, but nothing else. No need to be rude about me being slow on one name from a period I havent read nor studied much about.
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Oooooooooh. The royal british navy officer.....Sorry friend but, Nelson who? Either way.. o7
I feel stupid now..... ;_;
In my defence, I don't know much about british naval history actually. The little I do know is World War II only..
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Sorry friend but, Nelson who? Either way.. o7Nelson Salutes you...
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Eklipz, please..lol whats this shit. Writing an essay about them being complete assholes and people reacting to it. Amazing what kids do for attention these days.
Not once did I call anyone a "complete asshole", or anything even remotely close to it. I'll politely ask you to either stop commenting or change your tone, for the sake of a good and mature discussion and hopefully a change because of it.
Thank you.
You seem to actually be one of few who understands why I mentioned World of Warcraft and my history with it. Actually made me happy as I started to worry I wrote it in a bad way to connect it to Naval Action.The level of hate and propoganda directed against the 'dissenters' in an organised campaign is pretty sad and disturbing. Will you all just take a step back and remember that you are all equals playing a game? none of you are the king of Sweden and these guys broke no rules. they aren't griefing they are doing what they want to do for fun. you say they are ruining your fun just by doing what they want but you don't care at all about ruining their game experience, about bullying them in game and even misusing the forums to bully them further?
Get a grip people, this is a game. its not surprising to me at all that idiots ended up commiting real world crimes over WoW. this is the sort of nonsense that starts it, organized hate campaigns against people just because you don't like their choices.
I was part of a clan in Britain that went against the wishes of a bigger clan because we decided it was important to us. there was no nonsense on the forums and all this hatred. we disagreed and settled it through talking. now we work together on common goals.
Its not that hard, behaving like this just because people wont listen to you is pathetic. grow up.
But yes, your comment is very very true friend,
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I'm not sure why one clan going against the grain is even causing forum drama at all. A while back some British clans picked fights against the wishes of most of the other clans. A short time ago RAE went to war against Britain in breach of the peace agreed by the rest of their faction, then STARS did it too. Now Sweden does it and we have Herminator making a tribunal post wanting that clan forcibly switched to Pirate? Comical.
Our clan and a danish-norweigan one, yes. RNON is their name, both threads is in the Nation News if you want more reading buddy.
Open letter to Game Labs regarding RNoN and DRUNK.
in National news
Posted · Edited by Sju Sjösjuka Sjömän
Sorry but where did I insult you?
All things I've stated in my thread I have legit proof to back it up with. If you feel hurt because of my words then I'd like to start of by saying; How do you think I feel when all I do is being nice towards everyone, even my enemies that attacks me alone with 6 ships, and I get called a idiot in the sweden chatt for saying that I want to battle the danes? How do you think I feel when I see the flame festival that starts in the global swedish chatt as soon as any known member of DRUNK says a single word that even midly goes against yours?
I honestly don't hate my nationa teammates, I do however feel extreamly misstreated by them which have resulted in a quite bad habit of feeling anger whenever I see certain names writing about DRUNK. Do you even remotely understand what a large group of the swedish player base does towards DRUNK? Are you even remotely able to understand how much the game is being ruined for us because of that, atleast for me?
But fine, if I somehow insulted you by writing a open letter where I expressed my feelings regarding the national political climate and the community itself, I am sorry.
EDIT; Mods, I'm truely sorry that I'm so bad on responding to multiple posts in one comment. Please don't hate me.