Spartan0536
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Posts posted by Spartan0536
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12 minutes ago, BungeeLemming said:
"representative".. ?
Sorry but the only representative ships of the american navy that we have and should have ingame are: rattle, essex and consti. US SoLs are NOT representive for the time our game is set. Rattle since these corvets harassed the brits immensly during the war. Essex cause that was more of a typical sized us vessel and consti cause.. murica^^ (first noticed big frigate with long 24s)
And looking at this ship its like a Consti with an additional deck and structural additions. Another step towards the economical design of ships in general. Id like to stop bevore the spar deck became adapted.
Ships launched are afloat but they lack planking everywhere but to the first wale. So the question for me is: Was she afloat like I described? Or was she finished and build up for service?
Commissioning within the US Navy means they took possession of her in an official capacity, she was completed on May 30th 1820 and a celebratory launch commenced, she required a refit in 1838 to prepare to sail for the Mediterranean as she was neglected while in "ordinary".
USS Ohio was part of a 7 ship project calling for ships with no less than 74 guns, she was pierced for 104 guns total, armed with 90 at the earliest. -
10 minutes ago, BungeeLemming said:
"representative".. ?
Sorry but the only representative ships of the american navy that we have and should have ingame are: rattle, essex and consti. US SoLs are NOT representive for the time our game is set. Rattle since these corvets harassed the brits immensly during the war. Essex cause that was more of a typical sized us vessel and consti cause.. murica^^ (first noticed big frigate with long 24s)
And looking at this ship its like a Consti with an additional deck and structural additions. Another step towards the economical design of ships in general. Id like to stop bevore the spar deck became adapted.
Why have the Russian Brig Mercury in then? Mercury was launched May 19th 1820, the USS Ohio was launched same year and month as her, just 11 days later.
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1 minute ago, Talos said:
Yes, that dates back to her refit before she's comissioned into service, not from 1820 when she was launched. She wouldn't have been armed in ordinary. The 1845 information comes from a period gunnery manual that goes through the armament of every US Navy ship. It's the one where I finally confirmed USS Macedonian (ii)'s frigate armament of 42-cwt 32-pdrs after several years of looking (it was a toss-up between 42cwt and 46cwt guns. Constellation got them too, she was the only other 2nd-class frigate). It lists Ohio and all the ships of the Delaware class as having the same armament.
The problem being the shell cannons on the 1845 refit, the 1838 armament has cannons that meet the weapon criteria for the games era limitation.
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Just now, Talos said:
The 1820s is when she was commissioned into Ordinary, that is an empty, unrigged hulk.
By 1845 she had 88 guns, including 42-pdrs on the Lower Deck and a few 8" guns on the Lower and Upper Decks, and 22 x 42-pdr carronades on the spar deck.
1838 she was fitted for the following armanet and it's documented....
32 x 42lb Cannon (Lower Gun Deck)
32 x 32lb Cannon (Upper Gun Deck)
24 x 42lb Carronade (Spar Deck)
2 x 32lb Cannon (Fore)
No guns aft.
http://3decks.pbworks.com/w/page/916136/USS Ohio (1820)
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27 minutes ago, Talos said:
I'm not entirely sure Ohio /had/ an armament beyond her rated type as a 74, as she was launched into Ordinary. The earliest armament I've seen dates back to the 1830s when she was refit for service. That's the all-32-pdr armament too.
Hell if that is the best we can go on being all 32lb'er guns I am fine with that, it's still solid armament.
According to the data I have and have placed on here, the earliest she took on guns that is recorded was 1838, where she was fitted with the armament as described prior. UPDATED: she was fitted for 90 guns, not 102/104. 32x42 , 32x32, 24x42 Carronade, 2 x 32 (fore).
While her commissioning was not until 1838, she was and completed was AFLOAT by May 30th 1820.
As I have said she pushes the limits, no doubt there.-
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8 hours ago, Fluffy Fishy said:
Only 5 Nations frequently made 100+ gun ships Britain, France, Spain, Ottomans and Russia during the period. Sweden had a single 100 gun Konung Karl between 1725-71 while the Dutch had Eendracht between 1703-12. The Ottoman ships were pretty poorly made, so wouldnt be fun to sail, although it might be fun to tweak accuracy and put one in because they made some pretty goliath monsters. While the game is pretty set for 1st rates it could do with a more typical Spanish first rate such as Principe de Asturias (112) or San Jose (114) and an upper end Russian ship most likely the Ches'ma class like Rostislav
The US 100+ gun projects were never completed in the time frame, over budget, sluggish to react and fairly horrible outside of a straight line, they were also plagued with major issues of rot and maintenance cost, its best to avoid them. They also don't really offer anything new to the game. Their history isn't as notable and and their structure is less advanced than the Seppings method, their style of heavy armament is also preceded by British and French designs such as the Caledonia class.The claims made in the OP seem quite far fetched, the handling like a frigate seems very difficult when comparing her length and width, at least mathematically she would have performed pretty horribly in the water, as she has quite a poor ratio, even if she was pretty fast, although 12kn isn't as fast as some other first rates, looking at her hull shape further makes this an unlikely claim, much more probably just propaganda. Lets also be honest here, those US historians need their eyes testing if they consider her beautiful, she looks like a bath tub with gun ports, probably sailed like one too, there are far more beautiful ships in the US fleet both in terms of look and performance, let alone across the world, then again maybe that's a personal thing.
The USS Ohio was launched as a 74 too, not to the 102 guns specified on this thread, she gained more guns during a remodel that brought her more in line with naval thought of the period, her original armament if I remember correctly was 32 x 32lb on her main + 32 x 32lb on her upper and 10 x 32 on her quarterdeck, these guns were cast to different lengths so as to bring her in line with European naval practise of the time. She was later upgraded with more and more guns being put on the upper deck, the waist being filled in and having her main gun deck having a shorter 42lb gun replace the longer 32lb whilst adding more guns on her weatherdeck.Thank you for the post but I think the community is fed up of US ships now, there really needs to be more attention paid to the larger more potent European navies that have had no love yet, the Dutch, Portuguese, Venetians and Danish, dare I say it, even the Ottomans too.
I am interested in your claim that Commodore Isaac Hull is incorrect about the USS Ohio's capabilities as he is the first captain of that ship and it served as his flagship for 2 years in the Mediterranean. You should really read his memoirs and journals, I have provided the links for that in my 4th post on this thread. If you think you know more about sailing a ship that was made before your great great grandfather was in diapers vs a captain that sailed her and wrote his feelings on it, then by all means I am all ears.
Calling it "propaganda" is easy, hell I can call half of what that Russian Federation has in their military as "propaganda" based on how crappy their BMP's are designed or at least their export models to Iraq.
As for the armament issues, if you or anyone else can provide actual historical documentation of what her armament was at launch then I would be happy to accommodate that into the build.
As for the timeline it is 1820, and this is set by the MERCURY that is in the game... the Russian Brig Mercury was launched May 19th of 1820, the USS Ohio was launched 11 DAYS after her, same month, same year.-
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20 minutes ago, George Washington said:
Is that a model you are working on for the USS Ohio?
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I just found this interested oil on canvas art piece on the internet by Joe Duncan Gleason (1884 - 1959).
This oil on canvas is depicting the USS Ohio leaving San Pedro in 1849.
Source Link
Here is another excellent link showing historical pictures of the USS Ohio, very well documented.
USS Ohio Historical Pictures
Original Historical Sketch of the USS Ohio
Another Ultra rare preserved photograph copy of the USS Ohio
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Most of the information that was used to build that 1/72 scale model of the USS Ohio by Stephen Myatt was derived from this fantastic book that highlights how the Ohio was built.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1568522223?ie=UTF8&tag=navalhistofou-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=1789&creativeASIN=1568522223
This is also another important book, these are the papers and memoirs of Commodore Isaac Hull, the USS Ohio's first commander when she was the flagship of the US Mediterranean Fleet. Yes this is the same Isaac Hull that captained the USS Constitution, the same commander, a legendary US Naval commander, he loved both the USS Constitution and the USS Ohio.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000H7CY0U?ie=UTF8&tag=navalhistofou-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=1789&creativeASIN=B000H7CY0U
Many naval historians have said the USS Ohio is like a larger, heavier armed version of the USS Constitution, especially with her superb sailing characteristics.-
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As far as the issue of power creep goes...
WASA - That ship is nuts, the firepower is literally on par with a 3rd rate, damn fine ship though.
1st Rates: With ships like the Santisima Trinidad, Victory, and L'Ocean the Ohio while packing some serious 32lb'er and 42lb'er firepower does not have nearly as many guns as the others.
(Britain) Victory has:
32 x 42lb cannon (Bottom Gun Deck)
30 x 24lb cannon (Middle Gun Deck)
30 x 12lb cannon (Top Gun Deck)
14 x 12lb cannon / 42lb carronade (Weather Deck)
4 x 12lb cannon / 68lb carronade (Fore)
2 x 68lb carronade (aft)
Total guns - 106
(France) L'Ocean has:
32 x 42lb cannon (Bottom Gun Deck)
34 x 24lb cannon (Middle Gun Deck)
34 x 12lb cannon (Top Gun Deck)
18 x 9lb cannon / 42lb carronade (Weather Deck)
4 x 12lb cannon / 68lb carronade (Fore)
4 x 9lb cannon / 68lb carronade (Aft)
Total guns - 114
(Spain) Santisima Trinidad has:
34 x 42lb cannon (Bottom Gun Deck)
34 x 24lb cannon (Middle Gun Deck)
36 x 12lb cannon (Top Gun Deck)
34 x 9lb cannon / 42lb carronade (Weather Deck)
2 x 12lb cannon / 68lb carronade (Fore)
4 x 9lb cannon / 68lb carronade (Aft)
Total guns - 138
(United States) USS Ohio has: (Circa 1st documented fitting)
32 x 42lb Cannons (Lower Gun Deck)
32 x 32lb Cannons (Top Gun Deck)
24 x 42lb Carronades (Spar Deck)
2 x 32lb Cannons (Fore)
No guns on the rear, only windows for the captains quarters
Total guns - 90
*Would recommend this ship to be placed as a 2nd Rate SoL.
As you can tell the USS Ohio has some impressive firepower but it's not "OP", she packs the same amount of 42lb cannons as the Santisima, is the only 1st rate with 32lb'ers making her unique and adding to her overall firepower, and on her spar deck only carries carronades which are good out to usually 200m and only at very flat angles (I know this as I am a Constitution captain that uses 42lb carronades, I even have the carronade master perk). She has no rear guns, and is one of the few ships in the game that is not armed in the rear, and is the only lineship so far to have no guns in the rear. Her fore armament while powerful with 32lb cannons is only complemented by 2 fore guns, much like the Constitution.
She is not some behemoth that has no rival, in fact some may not even like her due to the low amount of guns she possesses despite packing 42 & 32lb cannons for ranged shots, many prefer the quicker reload of smaller guns to continuously fire on a target by firing by deck and rank. What the USS Ohio is good at, and is better than any other 1st rate in the game is sailing, while having a longer reload time than most other ships due to her massive cannons, she is also better able to use her maneuverability to gain an advantageous position for her next shot.
I remember when people were complaining about the Constitution being in the game and that it was "OP", now we have the Wasa. I think the Ohio fits a position in Naval Action that makes people decide if they want more firepower over maneuverability. The Ohio is only a 3 deck ship, not a 4 deck like the 3 other 1st rates, she is unique.-
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Hello Naval Action Captains,
I am proposing adding in the USS Ohio circa 1820 which from what has been agreed on is the cutoff year for Naval Action with the addition of the Mercury.
The USS Ohio has quite a service history for the United States as a SoL (Ship of the Line) and quite honestly is likely the single best SoL the United States ever made.
USS Ohio History:Laid Down - 1817 @ New York Naval Yard
Launched - May 30th 1820
Spent her early years in "ordinary""refitted" for service in 1838 when she was needed, and served as the US Flagship to the Mediterranean for 2 years
Went back to Boston for "ordinary" in 1840
Recommissioned in 1846 in the US - Mexico war assisting in the Siege of Vera Cruz, her guns were deployed and 336 of her crew were sent on the Tuxpan River Expedition.
Shortly after the war with Mexico she was sent to the Pacific to keep order off California during the gold rush.
She returned to Boston one last time in 1850, and served as a receiving ship until 1875.
She was placed in "ordinary" for the last time in 1883, and was sold off.
During her "breaking up" she refused to die, she broke from her mooring during a storm and became stranded. She was subsequently burned to the waterline and portions of her hull remain scattered and buried underneath the mud to this day (the shipwreck site is well documented).
Armament as best replicated:
90 guns total
2 x 32lb Cannons Fore
No guns Aft (Only windows)
24 x 42lb Carronades (Spar Deck)
32 x 32lb Cannons (Gun Deck)
32 x 42lb Cannons (Lower Deck)
Standard Crew Compliment:
840 Men & Officers
Why the USS Ohio (1820) aka Ohio II?
The USS Ohio is regarded by many US Naval Historians as one of the most beautiful sailing warships ever afloat at the time of her launching. On top of that naval records and journals indicate she was an absolutely superb ship to sail constantly doing better than 12 knots and handling very much like a frigate, this information is extremely well documented. While she was built along side her sister ships she was designed slightly differently and to date is still regarded as the best SoL the United States had ever built, despite not seeing much action, even though she did see action in the Mexican-American war. Her armament is quite impressive to say the least, that is a LOT of 32 and 42lb guns, and for her sailing characteristics this makes her a very very formidable ship despite being on 104 guns when compared to the larger ships like the HMS Victory and the Santisima Trinidad's ridiculous amount of guns.
Strong Armor, excellent sailing characteristics, powerful armament, this is what makes a good SoL, and I believe she has a place in Naval Action as there are no US SoL's and not many can either fit the timeline or were just poor performers.
Historical Pictures:
Artist Rendition of USS Ohio SoL (1820)
"2 old salts" on the USS Ohio circa 1870
USS Ohio as a receiving ship in Boston circa 1870
USS Ohio (far right) in Boston photo circa 1870's
Original Cedar "Hercules" figurehead from the USS Ohio on display today
Stephen Myatts near 100% accurate (painstakingly recreated from historical documentation) model of the SoL USS Ohio (Left Side)
Stephen Myatts near 100% accurate (painstakingly recreated from historical documentation) model of the SoL USS Ohio (Fore)
Documented Sources:
Naval Historical Foundation
Nav Source Online (historical photos only)
3 Decks Naval Warfare History
Wikipedia USS Ohio 1820 (GENERAL HISTORICAL INFORMATION ONLY)
*NOTE:
I would like to point out that the original naval register for her initial gun complement has yet to surface on the internet, I have heard that the US Navy does have some historical documents that can be requested at a cost (unsure of the cost) however this information has not been entirely verified. The gun compliment while being based on the 1837 public register does fit with the period that Naval Action is in, there are NO EXPLODING SHELL CANNONS on her as of 1837, these were traditional round shot cannons, the documentation is there to prove it.
"NOPE IT'S OUT OF DATE" - Then remove the Mercury, this launched on the same year, month and within 11 DAYS of the launch of the Russian Brig Mercury, your arguement is invalid.
"Can't fit 1837 guns on a 1820's ship, it's out of the timeline" - as long as they are the same guns that are limited in Naval Action and are the front loading, and fire only traditional round shot you can, and circa 1837 she was fitted for exactly that, and ONLY that. The only reason she has no earlier documentation is that she was in "ordinary" until she was needed to be sailed. Again argument invalid.
Yes she pushes the limits of the timeline, no argument there, however she does meet all the requirements and in my honest opinion she would make an excellent addition to the game.-
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I am going to necro the living daylights out of this thread instead of making a new one.
I 100% support the USS Independence.
It fits the 1820 cutoff, and we now have ships that never saw combat in the game, so that argument is null and void.
Gotta love that 90 x 32 lb cannon array of death.... yes us Americans love our guns.-
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I believe the first map showing the border including the Florida Key's may be in error, otherwise this is all news to me.
US Ship of the Line USS Ohio (1820)
in Ships of the line
Posted · Edited by Spartan0536
Mercury did not defeat an SoL, she fought her way out of battle to live another day, still quite a feat, but she did not sink an SoL.
I was making a general comment which is quite popular with many on the forums about "cutoff dates", I have heard everything from 1800, to 1810, and 1820. Using the Mercury as the latest ship year, this allows the USS Ohio to fit within the timeline, it makes it incredibly hard to argue from a date standpoint.
BTW the USS Ohio also fought in combat during the Mexican - American war firing her guns and shots landed on target during a siege. She also did anti-piracy operations in the Mediterranean under the direct command of Commodore Isaac Hull. While not as decorated and especially not as well known as the USS Constitution, the USS Ohio did partake in combat meeting that "requirement".
Also during her time off the coast of africa she partook in operations against slave trade.
She is considered by many US Naval historians as the first successful SoL for the US Navy, she is important and meets the criteria, if only barely.