Rithal
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Posts posted by Rithal
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The developers have already told us that there are no plans for slave trade at the moment, however, I would like to continue this discussion to show how the points you made are flawed.
The media seems to be ok with games like Grand Theft Auto and Saints Row right?
"Meet Bob. Bob is your average person, living in an apartment in New York. What you might not know about this paper salesman who grew up in Toledo is that he makes a profit by owning and trading African slaves." Main Article: "Bob plays a game called Naval Action, in which, trading in chained African slaves is a lucrative profession. "Sure, you lose a bunch on the crossing, and that cuts into profits" Bob tells us, "but the ones you have left, the ones that aren't too sick at least, more than make up for the cost of the journey. Oh look, here's the Caribbean Mansion I bought with the profits! I can even use the slaves to reduce the cost of the sugarcane I grow to sell to other players...."
Bob also plays a game called Grand Theft Auto 4, where he plays as a veteran of a (presumably Yugoslavian) army that committed war crimes and atrocities during the duration of the conflict. Bob's character now is involved in multiple crime rings in a fictional New York city, where he kills rival gangs, cops, and random civilians at will. Bob also plays a game called Mafia II, where he plays as Vito Scaletta who makes a living working for mobsters killing anyone and everyone he is asked to kill for money. With this money, Bob buys cars clothes, and more weapons to kill even more people.
Virtual slavery isn't any worse than virtual murder. It's just that casual gamers have become "hardened" to games like this. Slavery in a game is just so "edgy" that most people are turned off to the idea for historical value and authenticity.
On second thought, you are right. I kind of feel bad for the virtual slaves....
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No whale hunting. But you can hunt whales in AC Black Flag. WTF. HYPOCRISY ECT. JK
I respect your decision Mr. Developer. -
"but virtual transportation of slaves from Africa to the Americas is not worse than killing virtual people in games like GTA and Call of Duty in my honest opinion."
And there we have it folks. Thank you Rithal for admitting the truth about what you believe to the rest of the forum. As I said, its not about mechanics. You simply want this in the game and don't see any problem with it. That's the reality of the mindset of many of the people here and that was what I wanted to expose all along. The Truth.
Or............. I think slave trading should be in the game due to it's historical significance of this time period, and the fact that entire economies were centered on slave labor during this era. I said "but virtual transportation of slaves from Africa to the Americas is not worse than killing virtual people in games like GTA and Call of Duty in my honest opinion." to try and combat the argument that slaves shouldn't be in the game because IRL slavery is wrong. It doesn't make sense. I'm pretty sure that most people conclude that killing people IRL is wrong, yet their are games centered around killing people. I originally intended on this being purely based on what is best for the game, in terms of how it works, yet it's people like you that have blown it out of proportion, and have gone all keyboard warrior on us. It's just a game. It's not real.
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Slave trading is not a GAME MECHANIC! Trading is a game mechanic. What you trade is not a mechanic. So grow up and realize that your post has nothing to do whatsoever with mechanics.
PS: Some forum mod already deleted that post. So, I'm glad that you re-posted for me.
The goods you trade, how you trade them, and the affects of said trade is definitely a game mechanic. I don't know how else I can explain this. It's not a morale issue. No one cares about playing MW2 where you can play ass terrorists groups in multiplayer and kill virtual U.S marines do they? It's just that slavery has been drilled into our heads so much as children that it's wrong. Yes, slavery is wrong. I don't condone it, but virtual transportation of slaves from Africa to the Americas is not worse than killing virtual people in games like GTA and Call of Duty in my honest opinion.
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I vote for yes, as historically accurate as possible, but you forgot this option...
If you want to question slavery, do not question the slavery represented in a game, question it on your daily life. Think on this, that black man in the building in front of you working as hell, that prostitute in the you paid last night, some food you buy...comes from slave work...and we pay for it without knowing..
so, does a game that represent slavery is an insult? is it unacceptable?
... I don't understand what you are trying to say. Are you equating minimum wage jobs and illegal prostitution to slavery?
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http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/2346-forum-and-sea-trials-rules/
Please read 1,2,3 & 4 before further posts as I believe we are getting a little heated here and out of proportion to the OP's post.
I respect anyones valid and sensible views on these forums but telling me I am a bad person because I would vote to have historical content included is just going to get my back up.
This is a war game, I don't see any posts on behalf of AntiWar do you? Do you know why ? Its because this is not real, its a game, its based on history - some of us won't be offended if unsavoury historical content is in game if it serves to enhance its depth.
Personally I don't mind if slavery is or isn't included, Maybe "Exotic Livestock" will be in game I wonder what that might be a code phrase for.....
What I object to is inflamatory and downright rude posts that imply wanting to be historically correct is going to send me to hell and that I am somehow supporting and promoting modern day slavery.
^ This
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Look at all these statements promoting slavery and attacking me directly because I am speaking against it.
Here we have one member putting words in my mouth stating that I am calling everyone idiots that take their moral teachings from games. Apparently I must educate some members of the forum of the fact that human morality is mostly taken directly from the actions of society. "When in Rome do as the Romans do" is just one such popular phrase that points to this idea. Few have read the words of Maurice Jolly when stating,
"Do you believe that a subject will keep his promises for long when he sees the sovereign betray his? That he will respect the laws when he sees that the law giver has violated them?Do you believe that a subject will hesitate to embark upon the path of violence, corruption, and fraud when he constantly sees walking there those who are charged with leading him?"
As well, any study of ethics and morality will educate one on the ideas of tribal or collective morality as mentioned in any ethics textbook and of course Wikipedia on "Morality" Link here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality
"By contrast, tribal morality is prescriptive, imposing the norms of the collective on the individual. These norms will be arbitrary, culturally dependent and ‘flexible’, whereas territorial morality aims at rules which are universal and absolute, such as Kant’s ‘categorical imperative’ and Geisler's graded absolutism."
As well, no one is "pretending slavery didn't exist". Instead, I was one of the only members who mentioned that slavery still exists today. Whereas those who are promoting the slave trade in this game are the ones who only mention slavery as a fact of ancient history with no mention at all that it is a current problem today. Perhaps the members that promote slavery in this game should be marked by the developers as the first categorized slaves of the world, free to be captured by anyone and their game freedoms permanently terminated.
Once again, attacking my integrity directly as if the world does not distinguish combat under nations flags as separate from piracy, slavery, and other criminal acts. Attempting to use my own signature image against me only marks yourself as a childish antagonist with no apparent logic in his mindset.
Morality, as linked earlier in this post, is taken directly from the influence of peers and social groups online or otherwise. To even claim the opposite shows a lack of ethics and morality education for all who have studied this subject or even bothers to research it will see the many theories about collective morality associations.
It is also plainly clear that many members of this game want to promote slaver and will illogically, childishly, and foolishly attempt to shame anyone else who stands against slavery. It reminds me of the uneducated south in the American civil war arguing so pointedly from a lack of any research or education on the matter that they alone convince many to go against them through their personal grudges and childish attacks against others. Notice well the mindset that these individuals have and tell me that this is the kind of immorality, personal attacks, and peer pressure that you want to promote in this game.
You are really taking this a little too far... This isn't a college ethics and morality class. This is an internet forum. I don't think including slavery in the game is at all condoning it. But yeah, you are seriously going overboard here. You suggest that those who would like the ability to trade slaves to be included (Myself) should be "categorized as slaves" and should be "free to be captured by anyone and have their game freedoms terminated." I'm trying to figure out if you are the best troll on the internet or if you are just insane. You go on to say that we remind you of the uneducated south. This in itself is very offensive to southern people, implying that just because they had slaves once upon a time, ALONG WITH THE REST OF THE CIVILIZED WORLD, they are uneducated. Do yourself a favor and stop.
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The slave trade cannot be represented by players at all unless players attack and report all slave trade and free them.
1. If you allow players to trade in slaves it gives a nod that on some level it is OK because it is profitable.
2. It devalues the sanctity of human life and you cannot allow players to develop this attitude.
3. It is still going on today and allowing trade in this manner may actually subject the game to unfair press regardless of historical accuracy.
4. same effect of transporting humans can be has by transporting prisoners of war instead of slaves.
So, you cannot allow players to trade in slaves in this game first and foremost because of the mindset in the player that you create. The predominant mindset of the time was that half the world were savages that needed to be controlled and were barely human. It was because of this mindset that much of the world suffered. Allowing players to trade in slaves will create a continuance of this mindset that anything is OK as long as it is profitable. What comes next is the perishable goods factor being applied to human cargo. The trader would get a report saying that 10 slaves died in transport. Is that what you really want in this game? Is that the mindset that we want to create? Hell no. The developers have made no mention that slave trading will be put into this game, only other players have wondered this. I for one hope that they never include slave trading on any form or fashion except to attack anyone who trades in slaves and to free them. There are still slaves today. There is still a slave trade today in many parts of the world. It can never be allowed, even in a game, to profit in any way from slavery.
I don't think developers should be worried about the players "developing and attitude that devalues human life" from a video game. Have you ever played Grand Theft Auto? Hehe. You also mentioned "unfair press". Underline unfair. Any bad press that this game gets for keeping historical accuracy is unfair and should be held in high regard when developing a critique of the game imo. There are slaves in all sorts of games. Rome Total War 2 features the ability to enslave entire populations, yet it definitely has its repercussions. This is not any different.
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Seeing that my last thread about the slave trade presented a large variety of opinions, I think it would be appropriate to poll the community to get an overall preference.
Link to my original thread on slave trading. There are some good points brought up here. http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/3106-triangle-trade/
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I was thinking that if the game takes place after Britain's Slave Trade Act of 1807, then players can take jobs to deliver a set amount of slaves to a port or something in America by a given date. It's high risk due to British ships (both AI and players in the British army) but also high reward. I was also wondering what could be done in regards of AI randomly inspecting your ship looking for smuggles cargo or other things like slaves. I was also wondering what the community thought in terms of taking goods that were due to be delivered and selling them on some sort of black market. This can make you some quick dough but also can tarnish your reputation and can decrease cargo amounts and payments in the future. What do you guys think?
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I see both of your points, but I think it could be fine if the developers handled it properly. Then again, I'm not sure. Maybe make it have a much higher payout but increase the chance that you will be attacked on the voyage or something like that. I mean, it is history :/ The game is meant to be as historical as possible.
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I was wondering what kind of influence the triangle trade will have on the trade patterns of the open world. I was also wondering whether slaves will be available to transport to the Americas. I know it's a touchy subject but it is historical. What do you think?
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I respect your decision Mr. Developer.
Triangle Trade
in Current Feature Improvement Suggestions
Posted
Slavery is in all of our backgrounds for the most part. Not just those whose great great great great great grandparents were slaves, but also those who grew up where slavery existed. It haunts us just as much as those who had slaves farther up their family tree.