Jump to content
Game-Labs Forum
Marx

Players Dropping Like Flies Due to Grind

  

524 members have voted

  1. 1. Is the grind too much?

    • Yes
      204
    • No
      320


Recommended Posts

Do you realize that new players are not the ones getting to frigates in three days? People spending 5-8 hours per day are not what you should be using as a reference point on these kinds of things. So many people in this thread just assume that everyone who plays games can dedicate as much time as they do to a new game. Just because some people are in frigates doesn't negate the thousands that aren't. Jesus Christ it gets so difficult reading some of these things, it's like saying that we just had a blizzard so Global Warming isn't an issue. Please try to think about other peoples situations rather than just your own experience, I know it can be difficult.

I joined the Game Saturday and in three days I can sail a Cerberus. I joined with x5 other people at the same time who also never saw this game play before. We're mostly all lieutenant level for the most part. Now it is true, like you said, I played for probable 5-8 hours a day. But it's not the casual players getting into rate ships fast that are going to swing the regional control of the game. Like it or not it's going to be guys like me and there are a lot of us. And as soon as I get a bigger ship the sooner my clan mates get into bigger ships. The end result of easy leveling is that your going to end up with power player groups running around in rate ships. This is going to happen one way or another. But trust me, you want to stall it off as much as possible. As new and even current playing people are forced to gravitate and join the power player group they with then get shot up in rank as fast as the grind allows. So the more rate ships we get the more rate ships we get. The only thing that will slow it is the grind time. The longer it takes us the less of an early lead the power groups will be able to get.

As the gentleman above mentioned, the lack of tutorial is probably the what's resulting in an extra long grind for the non-number crunchernon-power players. The trick really is in learning not to broadside fire all the time and to strip crew whenever the opportunity arises. Yesterday we sunk a Constitution with x2 Brigs and a cutter. That gets about 200 -300 Xp for just that one kill. The trick is in blowing out the stern, killing crew and reducing its reload time enough to make it manageable. It's not that the game isn't offering enough xp right now. It's that the game is so new the knowledge of how to fight in it isn't common knowledge yet.

Edited by Bach
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please try to think about other peoples situations rather than just your own experience, I know it can be difficult.

 

Isn't that what we're asking, too? We don't want the game to be overrun with "instant gratification" types sailing 1st rates after a week of joining because we foresee what that's going to do to our game experience. I hope to see a game where ships like the Brig, Mercury and Surprise remain valid choices even for very high rank players (especially for heavy PvP players, because higher rated ships cost so much to lose) so I think the rush to high level is actually taking the wrong view of where this game is headed in terms of "average ships". I don't want 1st rates or even 3rd rates to be "average", that every Joe Blow Newbie is sailing around in while other ships are deemed to be worthless junk. (As happened in POTBS, where the ship list was like 10x bigger than this game's ship list but in the end 90% of the ship list consisted of "newbie ships" nobody would sail.)

 

I think new players should spend a good about of time in low end ships just to force them to realize their value. I don't know yet what I'll settle into for long term PvP but it might actually be something like a Snow or a Mercury because based on my experience with them in combat, they might be a good place to live where performance meets cost. Yes, PvPing in a 1st rate would be a more powerful platform but how many of those can I afford to lose versus how many Snows? I'm in no hurry to reach 3rd Rate rank because I'm pretty sure I don't want a 3rd rate for my daily fight ship.

 

Please try to think about other people's situations rather than just your own experience.  :ph34r:

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

as a more casual player i can tell you yes right now the xp grind sucks. pre-wipe we got assist xp for helping to sink ai 3rd rates and smaller and it was common to come out with 300-600 xp when in a large group of friends. this needs to return otherwise yes you will lose players. maybe not right now but as the players realize you dont get sh!t for "helping" a higher ranked player to kill a 3rd rate or constitution or any other ship they will gradually stop play

Earning 600xp a battle is too much. This is an MMO, first and foremost. Its not supposed to be an instant level. No MMO has ever let you level that quickly. The problem isn't the xp reward, its the actual content itself.

Look at whats available to players. Trading, though very rewarding in terms of cash earns you no experience. PVP is great fun and always entertaining and always teaches you something and is the best aspect of the game, can be very random and more often than not, not rewarding at all. The missions both educating and rewarding for new players is the best way of leveling...but they're tedious and repetitive. Hunt and kill. The xp reward amount I think is ok, perhaps could need a slight increase but I'm happy with it. What needs to be changed is, as I said, the content itself. There is a multitude of missions that could be implemented.

An escort mission, your zoned into the battle instance and have to escort a trader across the instance, protecting it from an attacking enemy ship/ships.

A rescue mission, a ship has suffered damage that is irreparable during a battle. They defeated the enemy ship but need to be towed back to port. There is the possibility of encountering enemy ships attempting to locate this lost ship due to failure to arrive at port at the expected date. This could be a mission that not only requires you to collect the ship from the battle instance and tow it for an x amount of time during the instance all while the possibility of attack is present in the instance but once leaving the instance to still tow this back to a designated port of repair. While on route to port the chance of attack is still possible.

For the current missions they could do with tweaking. Rather than having a designated exact zone marking the instance, have a 'roaming ai ship'. Have a circle marking the approximate area of the ship/ships and have it named so the player knows which ship to target.

There are other alternatives, but due to time constraints I can't list them.

The mundane activity has to be broken up. There a huge list of missions that could be implemented to broaden the players experience. Once the content itself has been changed I believe the argument that there isn't enough xp rewarded will soon be forgotten. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I joined the Game Saturday and in three days I can sail a Cerberus. I joined with x5 other people at the same time who also never saw this game play before. We're mostly all lieutenant level for the most part. Now it is true, like you said, I played for probable 5-8 hours a day. But it's not the casual players getting into rate ships fast that are going to swing the regional control of the game. Like it or not it's going to be guys like me and there are a lot of us. And as soon as I get a bigger ship the sooner my clan mates get into bigger ships. The end result of easy leveling is that your going to end up with power player groups running around in rate ships. This is going to happen one way or another. But trust me, you want to stall it off as much as possible. As new and even current playing people are forced to gravitate and join the power player group they with then get shot up in rank as fast as the grind allows. So the more rate ships we get the more rate ships we get. The only thing that will slow it is the grind time. The longer it takes us the less of an early lead the power groups will be able to get.

 

 

I always thought that the longer the grind gets the more advantage power groups have because they are separated from the main player base by a heavier time/grind commitment.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Earning 600xp a battle is too much. This is an MMO, first and foremost. Its not supposed to be an instant level. No MMO has ever let you level that quickly. The problem isn't the xp reward, its the actual content itself.

Look at whats available to players. Trading, though very rewarding in terms of cash earns you no experience. PVP is great fun and always entertaining and always teaches you something and is the best aspect of the game, can be very random and more often than not, not rewarding at all. The missions both educating and rewarding for new players is the best way of leveling...but they're tedious and repetitive.

 

Well, you look at this game as a themepark MMO, this kind indead separate their levelling content and their endgame content into different bascets. In this MMOs it's very important how you level up because levelling is a big part of the game. NA however is a sandbox MMO. A good sandbox (not all of them, admitted) aspires to treat the whole of it's content as the endgame. I.e. there should be no special, separate just-bite-your-way through experience leading to the actual game, the actual game should start on the first hour of playing. So ideally we shouldn't just invent new mission types to make the grinding sweeter, we should invent them to be a useful "sandbox tool" that will be attractive for you to do even in three month or twelve months. And of course in MMOs, sandbox or not, things should take time, because instant gratification kills motivation in a fortnight. So we should think of reasons where you would gladly do missions in a year. Or sail a Mercury in a year. Or bring a frigate to a port battle in a year. Or participate in shallow water battles as well as runing your Santi. But does it really matter if people reach Santissimas in 2 weeks or 2 months? What matters is how fun the game stays after 6 months. If the game still gives you enough incentive to keep playing in a year and not just do it in one fashion (chain-conquering ports on Santis) but giving you incentives to enjoy all facets of it. How long the initial grind is, is absolutely irrelevant to this larger question. There are the mechanics that really matter, that should take time as well as provide fun. Not the grind.

 

Edited by Nathaniel
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree completely with Nathaniel. There appears to be a lot wanting instant 1st rates. I am in a BellePoule, and to be honest, I'd be happy to stay in that ship. Going through the "grind" makes me savour and enjoy each part of the sailing aspect of the game thus far! This isn't because I have been playing for a long time, this isn't because I sail with others that have, it is because I enjoy the sailing aspect and the tactics of battle and the way the ships are represented in the models they have provided. I think what they have done represents well as to what a MMO sandbox is. If they catered to a POTBS-esque leveling up system I would be out in a heartbeat. 

I think the game should be more harsh towards the grind, but I know a lot of those 'faint of heart' would want instant gratification. 

Edited by Admaa

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I always thought that the longer the grind gets the more advantage power groups have because they are separated from the main player base by a heavier time/grind commitment.

There are all kinds of power players and power Guilds.

You have the methodical puzzle solver type. They will accept a long grind and it will also endear them to that team. They may become organizers and helpers of others or they may not.

You also have lazy instant gratification power groups. These are the guys you always see camping spawn points with gear and equipment you can't hope to survive. Their patients is shorter. Give them max content weaponry in short order and you'll be spawn camped by it within the week. Then when everyone starts to avoid them they will change names and switch nations. Why not? Within one week they can have max level equipment again for camping they're old team mates. The ones that stick with the game become team hoppers for the best short term advantages. Again, if you can level max in a week why not? The little longer grind protects the game from this effect.

Edited by Bach

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dunno. For all I care peeps could reach top level in a week. SOL creep is possibly already dampened by 1 dura and crafting system brickwall limiter, though Tommy and baltic could very well make me eat those words.

The issue for me is that the grind is picking on bots. It's just not inspiring. If I could fight players I almost wouldn't notice the grind.

Saying that we're able to just go OW hunting and PVP'ing to eventually gain rank is like one of those useless inspirational quotes on Facebook, for many reasons: xp/time deficit > constantly being at disadvantage to bot grinders, lack of 1 minute timers > most battles devolving into complete clusterfucks, running, counter tagging, fear of loss > general PVP aversion and/or ganks.

PVP is life, PVP is love. But my baby is fighting for her life.

I'm still a dreamer, though.

Wait! I should go put that up on Facebook.

 

I agree with this.  I don't care about the grind, it's the fact that playing VS AI is just not my thing.  The PVP combat is where this game shines.  Make PVP the ultimate goal.  Right now everyone is scared to fight and be sunk in their precious ship, so they all go PVE grind.

 

Small PVP battles would be cool, but its all cutters and the larger ships just leave because they are afraid to get sunk.

 

Personally I really like the concept of OW and what it could eventually offer, but the fun of this game is truly PVP combat,

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I joined the Game Saturday and in three days I can sail a Cerberus. I joined with x5 other people at the same time who also never saw this game play before. We're mostly all lieutenant level for the most part. Now it is true, like you said, I played for probable 5-8 hours a day. But it's not the casual players getting into rate ships fast that are going to swing the regional control of the game. Like it or not it's going to be guys like me and there are a lot of us.

 So we should talk about the idea of rested experience. It helps the casual players more than the hardcore people out there.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 So we should talk about the idea of rested experience. It helps the casual players more than the hardcore people out there.

Or those people who expect to get the same results for far less effort should perhaps lower there expectations as to what they can achieve in far less time invested. If you do not have the time then that is your problem (or not) and the game should never be lowered to the lowest level players.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree that the game plank shouldn't be lowered to accomodate players that just don't want to find time to engage with it. I find it ironic however that the amount of hundreds NPCs killed in a mission over and over is used as a valid criterion of "achievement".

Edited by Nathaniel
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm of the general opinion that the grind is okay in number of XP required terms, I think there just needs to be more to do mission wise for players that are in cutters. The missions are fun for a bit but get repetitive quickly and are forcing you to do combat in a ship that's a bit awkward to fight with sometimes. Being able to do do combat missions, trade missions, exploration missions, escort missions and so forth would real ease the feeling of grind IMO.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Small PVP battles would be cool, but its all cutters and the larger ships just leave because they are afraid to get sunk.

 

I don't even want to take my Snow into a small battle because of this, perhaps you could have OW durability (5) and LB/SB durability (10) or something, when you run out of the LB/SB durability then it eats into your OW durability.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem is the only reliable way to get XP is to grind out missions. 

PvP (Small Battles/Large Battles) is too long and too tedious for the amount XP it gives. I can do two missions by the time a PvP battle is over.

Why attack random enemy fleets when you can do a mission?  

Port Battles give good XP, but they happen once/twice a day.

 

There needs to be something other than missions, otherwise it just gets so fucking tedious.

Or atleast other mission types to break up the monotony, sailing to point A from B to kill 1-2 ships in an instance gets old fast.  Take a page from other sandboxes and add some more mission types.  Escorts, patrols, courier and delivery, maybe even a POTBS style bounty where you get bonus xp for killing a set number of enemy players.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The grind isn't necessarily too much, but the repetition is a problem. The repetition could be dealt with by adding content to increase game-play and entertainment value.

 

I understand there are a lot of players in this game that believe all game features should be historical first and foremost, but that isn't going to appeal to a mainstream game-playing audience. There needs to be a balance of historical influence with practical game-play development that emphasizes the entertainment value of NA. The current repetitious grind illustrates beyond a doubt that the game is lacking in content in its current state. Honestly though, I expected this to be the case and have told everyone I know that recently purchased the game that they need to be patient. NA has a lot of potential, but still has a long way to go. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2Wilberforce and especially Grottski:

This more content, more mission diversity approach would mean a tonn of expensive "themepark" content to produce to just achieve some filler that will delay players reaching the endgame for a week or two or even a month. But it wouldn't change anything in how you play the game after that (i.e. hopefully most of your time). Either the game keeps you motivated for months or it doesn't, the amount of grind you spent before it doesn't determine this in any way.

 

So i actually tend to agree with Azio more - the current sandbox IS the start- as well as endgame, some (more fun) activities should be "buffed" XP-wise, some, more tedious but profitable, should be "nerfed". There is no reason it should be linear either, i would be happy with a state of the game that gives you access to ships of the line a lot faster than now, but actually provide more incentives to spend time with smaller ships later on (the shallow areas are a step in the right direction and should become more important with time). Anyway, there is certainly no need to create an artificial two-week-to-to-months grinding missions-rip off, that would be different (and by definition, worse) than the actual sandbox we have.

Edited by Nathaniel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seems to work for Eve (although no xp there).  I'm not talking theme parks, just simple quests in addition to the ONE we have now which is something 90% of mmo sandboxes have.  And as for endgame, what endgame?  It supposed to be an open ended experience.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2Wilberforce and especially Grottski:

This more content, more mission diversity approach would mean a tonn of expensive "themepark" content to produce to just achieve some filler that will delay players reaching the endgame for a week or two or even a month. But it wouldn't change anything in how you play the game after that (i.e. hopefully most of your time). Either the game keeps you motivated for months or it doesn't, the amount of grind you spent before it doesn't determine this in any way.

 

EvE doesn't have massive themepark content type missions, but there is diversity between the missions that serves a purpose.

 

Currently, every mission in NA is the same, exactly the same. Sometime you fight 2 ships other times you fight 1 ship, but otherwise there is no story or goal to any of the missions. You may consider this "filler", but I suspect most people would consider this type of content the meat of a game. RvR is very basic currently and while PvP is fun it is nowhere near as efficient to gain XP as doing the same missions over and over again. To me, a game should be developed in such a way that it keeps people motivated and engaged. Simply accepting players lost because they haven't kept themselves motivated and engaged is really a preposterous argument to make when the purpose of video games is to engage and entertain.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The leveling system is about right as it is.. maybe a little more xp given for mission rewards or slight xp increase for sinking ships perhaps but overall it is pretty on par.  However they do need to add variety to the missions.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm good with how it is currently. I actually focus on doing other things and find myself gaining xp at an acceptable rate. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The post was made at request of my group and friends from PotBS that are desperately trying to stay interested that started playing last week, those are who I am the spokesperson for.

 

According to the poll, Currently 40% of the people are not enjoying the currently lower level grind, or are looking for a change in current practices.

 

And if games are being sold for a profit, even in early access, they are open to review/ critique.

 

The public has a right to know what your product is like if it is being sold to them. 

 

I hate when people try to shut up critics due to the EA label. Yes, critics should state things are subject to change, but they shouldn't simply be silenced because of it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Grind looks harder than it actually is.

 

I think the main problem is that some ranks cause more solid advance than others. Giving first rank a crew of 60 and second rank a crew of 90-100 would solve at least some of frustration, IMO. As a solo experience, mercury, snow and brigs make game much more enjoyable and first step of advancement more meaningful. (100 crew would make most 6th rates playable slightly undercrewed.) Right now first 2 ranks are retty much the same while also being the hardest time soloing anything.

 

Getting into a group solves most of the problems as do hiring a fleet, but lot of people do not use these possibilities and having their ship wasted against NPC mission pirates makes first few ranks a very long grind, with seemingly very little gain.

 

I'd change rank/crew to something like 60 / 100 / 130 / 170 to make it reasonable choice to undercrew next ship class on low ranks. After all, people are most hurried to advance at start and most games nowdays feed the ADHD By giving first five levels during a tutorial anyway. So sense of advancement at start should be more clear in my opinion, to match the general expectations new player most likely has. Still, XP gain in itself seems quite reasonable.

Edited by Ratas

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...