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I've noticed that with the introduction of the carriages into the recipes it has escalated the cost of production quite dramatically. This wouldn't be a problem normally as it would just mean ship prices would in turn be increased in the shop, but I've noticed that pricing from NPCs is undercutting Player builders profits to the point there isn't any profit in it. Buying resources at some of the lowest prices and then factoring in labour hours it just matching the abnormally low sale prices. It isn't worth crafting ships to sell so shipbuilding is being relegated to purely level up crafting skill rather than as a career option to earn coin.

 

Either remove ship sales from NPCs completely, increase the sale prices more, or reduce the material requirements in shipbuilding.

 

When prices increase on resources even just a minor amount it can make ship production costs actually more expensive than what you can sell them for and therefore shipbuilders are operating at a loss.

Edited by JJWolf
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I've noticed that with the introduction of the carriages into the recipes it has escalated the cost of production quite dramatically. This wouldn't be a problem normally as it would just mean ship prices would in turn be increased in the shop, but I've noticed that pricing from NPCs is undercutting Player builders profits to the point there isn't any profit in it. Buying resources at some of the lowest prices and then factoring in labour hours it just matching the abnormally low sale prices. It isn't worth crafting ships to sell so shipbuilding is being relegated to purely level up crafting skill rather than as a career option to earn coin.

 

Either remove ship sales from NPCs completely, increase the sale prices more, or reduce the material requirements in shipbuilding.

 

When prices increase on resources even just a minor amount it can make ship production costs actually more expensive than what you can sell them for and therefore shipbuilders are operating at a loss.

 

The NPC ships usually arent any good.

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Had the same reflexion yesterday while collecting things to build my first ship, if it's a trader ship you don't need the carriage and it's fine i guess, but for a first lynx you need 8 of them and the building costs started to sky rocket, still need to continue collect things before being able to finish those carriages for my first ship but for a first experience and seeing the sale price expected for such ship it wasn't very encouraging, i can only hope that with better level in crafting and producing better quality ships the sale prices will cover the money and time invested in this to make it somewhat profitable.

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Just my opinion, but way too much iron is needed to build any kind of ship! Considering the current system, I think crafting is not advantageous anymore. Maybe labour hours amount could be increased to slow down crafting level grinding, but iron ore requirements are too high right now. Just my humble opinion however :) .

Edited by Red Jack Walker
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I agree and posted about the NPC prices on the feedback thread. I don't think they increased them when they added the carriages to the build costs. It doesn't leave much space for crafters.

 

Sure the NPC ships aren't great but when you can get a grey one from an NPC for 20K-30K and a crafted green costs 35-50K I'm guessing a lot of folks will just buy the grey one from the NPC's especially now when newbies have very little cash and there's not much difference between them. Considering the time it takes to gather the resources, save the labour and make the ship there's really no profit in it at all. Top that off with only being able to make a few ships a day at the low levels and you're better off trading or fighting for cash. I do the crafting as I enjoy it. Hopefully the coming economy changes will sort all that out but it would have been nice to be a bit more of a dedicated crafter building ships for the new players.

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This ^^ and the lack of some materials ...

 

I visited islands around France Starting point, from Plymouth at North to Scarborough at south and only one produces Oak logs, St Joseph, went there yesterday and nothing, then made 2 long travels today until this island to find out the store empty each time i visited it, no oak logs to sell, visited most ports all around, no way to even get a single log to go further in my first construction...

 

With all the time i spent searching for the different materials and now spending even more time searching a nowhere to be found resource i could have gone sailing and hunting NPC's and had made twice what the ship will bring me if built and sold in the end, and i don't even take in consideration all the gold invested for now in the various materials i have bought that probably won't be covered by the sale price of the ship, but it was a first experience  ...

Edited by Kanay

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The balance between materials needed, availability, pricing, labor hours required and sell prices is totally off, but then so is most of the economy already and its only day 2...

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The econ worked for up to around 250 players but now with 500+ regularly on the PvE server and far more in the PvP server, the econ is going backwards with as stocks build up and trade is almost pointless when supply is far out stripping demand. Ship building is unprofitable so even grinding out ships is a massive time sink for no profit, only craft level.

 

What needs to happen is production needs to be at least doubled and consumption needs to quadruple just to get a start on fixing anything specific within the econ.

 

Currently there is 5000 stock of most resources in production ports with consumption ports filled to the brim consuming at such a slower rate that one trader doing a single trade run a day is all that is needed to keep the port well stocked.

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Remove NPC's selling ships!

 

It's a instant economy fix!  Devs can then balance resource production to raise or lower ship prices if needed but give crafters something purposeful to do.

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I'd like to see the removal of the NPC ships too but they'd have to do that in conjunction with a big boost to labour hours. I don't think its possible with the current system to make enough ships to meet demand. Many players wont bother with crafting and those of us that do cant make a full time job of it as labour is so tight. I could have sold 20+ ships today from talking to people that needed something I could make. I could only craft 2.

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Yep but if people made good money using their labour hours to make parts then shipbuilders could buy parts and build ships. atm few people craft or even use their labour hours because there is no money in it.  We all have starter ships

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I'm no sure if it is true or just one unfounded rumor but i was told that one of the factors decreasing a lot the resources availability is that some clans work a bit like ants, gathering a lot of materials all around and stacking them together for the clan, i don't know exactly how all this is possible or if clans can share some kind of mutual outposts but if it is true this is a big letdown for solo players who will collect only breadcrumbs compared to clans who have the economical power and manpower to collect and have the upper hand on resources gathering and stacking.

 

Again i'm not sure how all this works and if what i was told is really true but i can see how this could quickly become a problem with the so few resources available right now.

 

I often had to travel for 45 minutes just to get some iron or coal and not even in large quantities, took me more than 14 hours of gaming, traveling and trading to collect all the resources to make a simple lynx and only doing this in game, going to far islands producing the materials i needed, often to find them completely out of resources, was also told that some were placing orders for very large quantities with very high prices on those islands, the produced materials immediately going into those orders and thus closing the tap directly at the source for this material.

 

It's a work in progress and with many more players in the server it changes a lot of things on the economy side but it seems rather easy for fortunate players or clans to get the hand on most materials and quickly create a shortage on many resources and not even voluntary, i imagine organized players/clans doing this on purpose to get a monopole on some essential resources will be easily possible in the future, i mean things like coal shouldn't be that hard to find, yet you can travel for a good hour ( real time ) to get only a dozen of units available and come back to your outpost when the EU is well populated.

 

And the sale price i put for the 2 first ships i built won't even cover 20% of the materials prices invested, and i doubt they will be even sold as there is free ships costing 0 doing mostly the same anyway, plus it doesn't cover all the time spent traveling from one point to another, this bringing absolutely nothing in XP, don't know if it's something that is planned or not but maybe there should be a trader xp level system too, the higher you go the better reputation as trader you get, you will be able "to discuss some prices" and get some little discounts, or get some special relations in some outposts that will guarantee you some resources and prices always available, like a kind of agreement to buy resource xy for xy quantity at xy price, and you will be paid the decided price no matter if someone delivered tons of them just before you pass, kind of solid contract having a time limit or something like this.

 

Right now you spend a lot of time, a lot of money to collect resources, you earn nothing in gold, more like you loose a lot of gold, you do nothing as XP when spending 14 hours trading either, it might change at very high levels and you may earn something, maybe, but  now after hearing how clans seems to gather resources on a large scale with some clan members able to level up them crafting skills and produce very good ships at a very fast rate without even having to pass by the fastidious collect resources hassle,  i am doubtful a solo player will ever be able to get the head out of the water in this domain ...

Edited by Kanay

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The econ worked for up to around 250 players but now with 500+ regularly on the PvE server and far more in the PvP server, the econ is going backwards with as stocks build up and trade is almost pointless when supply is far out stripping demand. Ship building is unprofitable so even grinding out ships is a massive time sink for no profit, only craft level.

 

What needs to happen is production needs to be at least doubled and consumption needs to quadruple just to get a start on fixing anything specific within the econ.

 

Currently there is 5000 stock of most resources in production ports with consumption ports filled to the brim consuming at such a slower rate that one trader doing a single trade run a day is all that is needed to keep the port well stocked.

 

I must eat my own words on this WRT Iron Ore and Oak Logs around PR area, they don't exist, it seems everyone has buy orders in to soak it up before it even goes into the shop. This is the complete opposite and a symptom of the same thing, production isn't enough to cater for the 1000+ on the PvE server now.

 

Kanay, Yes clans are amassing goods to produce, the more cash reserves you have the more buy orders you can place in an area to soak up the production and starve traders and smaller shipwrights.

 

Example on costs of production from my little spreadsheet work: (Note bottom left NPC sale price vs cost to produce with realistic prices)

Capture.jpg

Edited by JJWolf

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It's simple : when you end up buying Gold at cheaper price than iron, (and even sometimes cheaper than oak logs), when Silver is always 50% cheaper than Iron there is something very wrong .

 

I could find ( and bought a lot ) of Gold for sell at 112-114 price, and near my capital city, not on one lost island far away that receive almost no visit, nope it was a 10 minutes real time trip ... Meanwhile it's barely possible to find iron ore while navigating far away for one hour real time to production locations, and when by miracle you find some in a less larger perimeter radius it's very small quantities with price superior by 40-50% to cheap Gold, and still superior to the most expensive Gold you can find around ...

 

Oak logs is the same story, unless you get really lucky you will spend you entire time searching for some, and the cost is just insane.

 

 

The production of those vital resources needs to be increased like it was done for coal, it takes tons of iron to craft a ship, the requirements for this resource on crafting is just huge and i don't want to imagine what it will take for larger ships, it's a money sinker and a frustrating long quests to find some, you spend half your playing day searching for some ...

 

I made and sold a pickle that had 2 crafting note added for 50K to a player, yet it does not even cover the price or resources invested for the basic materials, not even counting for all the gold spent to make the two crafting notes in the bill ...

 

Organized clans attacking cities do razzia's on them after battles, they get insane amounts of resources for cheap, solo players get the end of the stick with almost no resources available and insane prices when you find some even going very far away doing almost 2 hours trips ( gone and back ).

 

I don't know what is the vision of the Dev's on the economy but will the trading and crafting be something possible for organized large clans only ? Raiders attacking, traders doing razzia's on new conquered islands at cheap prices, crafter having nothing to do beside wait for labor hours to replenish and having all furnitures possible available under the hand  without even having to move once to get something, and finally speculators making money with orders/contracts all around.

 

What does it leave to solo players, or smaller clans ?  Some skirmish here and there , the rest being not viable at all ...

 

The more i think at it the more i start to want a XP system for solo crafter/traders, as yes you need to do all the job, trade a lot to get the resources then craft. XP system allowing time fefinied contracts with some preferential cities, to get and buy some resources at per-defined prices, no matter the fluctuations of the market you will have guaranteed prices if you have a contract.

 

And even wondering is players inside clans bypassing a certain amount of players should profit of the same bonuses such XP system will provide compared to a solo merchant or guys in very small clans, i mean clans obviously have large advantages on trading and gathering resources in very large quantities, or even on resources speculation and they can easily organize themselves to make some become very rare and prices going up or down by a lot, solo players or tiny clans should have some game mechanisms allowing them to at least survive in trading or crafting roles, a XP system giving some contracts with some cities, like some independent merchants were able to do with privileged relations/contacts around the world allowing them to make them commerce profitable, and this should not be allowed for large clans past a certain number of players to balance it, tiny ones can't have a so large impact on the market but others don't need such kind of help when they can have a so big impact on the economy and resources. 

 

That's just my 2 cents and i don't know what is the vision of the Dev's about economy, maybe they are perfectly fine with a few clans ruling the entire economy and crafting/trading being something viable for large clans only ( while being very easy and extremely profitable at the same time )  but a almost complete no go for tiny groups of players let apart for solo players ... Right now, trading, crafting is a time consumer and a money sinker with absolutely zero profits at the end and 0 XP made on the top of this, on the other hand if you are in a good clan you are sitting on a lot of easy and cheap resources, you can also speculate and decide to starve the market if it pleases you and crafter's not even have to move once to get all furnitures to build ships after ships, just need to play a bit the time to waist the labor hours and they level up easily, even possible to level up really fast with just a few minutes played each day, just enough to craft something and spend your labor hours, 10 minutes spent in game max i guess...

 

 

One last thing a bit different : i would like the see the builder's name somewhere on the built ships stat card or somewhere else, like a pedigree for the ships built.

 

Thanks for reading the long wall of text.

Edited by Kanay

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Just my opinion, but way too much iron is needed to build any kind of ship! Considering the current system, I think crafting is not advantageous anymore. Maybe labour hours amount could be increased to slow down crafting level grinding, but iron ore requirements are too high right now. Just my humble opinion however :) .

Seriously. Look at a gun carriage and tell me how much iron is in that thing.

And hawsers? Gun tackle isn't a hawser!

Hawsers and cables are eight-inch thick and weigh multiple tons! A ten-foot length of hawser probably weighs more than all the combined gun tackle for an entire ship!

 

Carriage materials need to simply require a little iron and a little hemp. Like one fitting.

 

 

It also feels like the cost and weight or masts, spars and rigging is massively understated in relation to the hull.

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1. Players working together will always benefit more than players working solo. If that is something that is game breaking to a person, perhaps multiplayer games are not their thing...

2. The production/consumption is totally borked. It would be without crafting, but with it, well the amount of fixing it will require is going to be massive, quadrupling the numbers will not help, the numbers need to be related to multiple runs PER REAL HOUR of TRADE SHIP HOLDS in order to have any real chance of sustainability.

3. Crafting simply makes no sense. No areas of specialization, no reason to specialize. There is only one way to make effective crafting experience, all others are beyond sub optimal. Crafting notes are something that any dedicated crafter will never make, require your "customer" to provide them. Most items provide less than a 1:1 XP to Labour Hour ratio, which is asinine. It would be akin to entering a battle for 15 minutes, winning and receiving 5 XP for it, nobody would do that if there was a way to make 2 XP per minute...

4. I think the major problem is the devs do not have a clear vision of what they want the economy to accomplish, or they do, but don't know how to get there. Both are fixable, but at least a minor understanding of basic economics and how they interact with MMO faucet and sink theory is required...

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Compared to pre-EA... the economy already was on its last leg with only around 200 ppl, but you were able to sustain yourself with trading on occasion and were able to do small profits on cheap goods. Now the server population increased 10-fold on the PVP One server, carriages were introduced into crafting and no changes were made to the economy. How unsurprisingly, the economy is down across the board and will only recover once enough people got tired of the game and leave.

 

To reflect player influx - consume rates in ports would have to be multiplied aswell, maybe not by factor 10, but nearly.

 

OR

 

Introduce a differenct economic model - trade shouldnt only be around production goods but mostly around consumer goods(and some resources amounts in crafting are insane - we arent building Ironlclads after all).

 

Combat is working fine as it is - but economy needs a fix and asap!

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1. Players working together will always benefit more than players working solo. If that is something that is game breaking to a person, perhaps multiplayer games are not their thing...

 

Regarding your point #1 , in my book there is a difference between teamwork making things easier for a group and a complete domination of 2 parts of the game that are trading and crafting, between being able to work faster with a bit less efforts and simply cutting the possibility for all others to do it if they decide to do so by collecting in mass all the resources, by placing very high priced orders to make the most common resources not available directly at the source for all the other players, keeping a complete monopole and simply denying the others the ability to do it ...

 

 

Now if it's your way to see online gaming... Well for me it ain't, when large groups of players are able to deny 2/3 of the game mechanics to others there is something going wrong, it have nothing to do with multi-player or online gaming, nor teamwork for me ( let me laugh at this one, when a guy in a clan can login to the game, craft for less than 10 minutes just the time to spend his labor hours, then logout and level up easily his crafting skills when others need to invest a fortune in cash to pay the sparse resources and spend dozen and dozen of hours to simply find some and collect them to build a simple lynx ... ) 

Edited by Kanay
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They could consider that when you build an outpost it slowly gives you the resources produced at that port. You would need the ability to cap how much you collect otherwise you could return to your port and see your warehouse full of hemp and not be able to fit anything else.  But it would incentivize building multiple outposts and also selling your surplus supplies.

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