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Mighty_Alex

HMS Newcastle -1813, (with plans). A Connie-killer anyone?

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HMS Newcastle was a 50-gun fourth rate of the Royal Navy which saw service in the Napoleonic Wars and the War of 1812.
A new type of ship, a large spar-decked frigate, Newcastle and her near sister HMS Leander were ordered in response to the threat posed by the heavy American spar-decked frigates, during the War of 1812. The Newcastle proved a successful ship, which operated in squadrons which chased the American frigates, but ultimately failed to catch them before the war ended. She spent some time as the flagship on the North American Station before returning to Britain in 1822 and being laid up the following year as a lazarette. She spent the rest of her career in this role, until being broken up in 1850.
 
Class & type: 50-gun fourth rate
Tons burthen: 1,556 bm
Length:
176 ft 5 in (53.77 m) (gundeck)
Beam: 44 ft 8 in (13.61 m)
Depth of hold: 15 ft 1.5 in (4.610 m)
Crew: 450
Armament:
Upper deck: 30 × 24pdrs
Spar deck: 24 × 42pdr carronades
Forecastle: 4 × 24pdrs

 

fqJhOqf.jpg

mzf7dHK.jpgThe most important plan is of poor quality. If you have this plan with better resolution, please post it in this topic. (Royale Museum Greenwich definitely has one)

KWUx3Nq.jpgtoItQjV.jpgMHhxX5z.jpg8Vmke99.jpgtis93FL.jpg

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I knew a Leander/Newcastle thread would pop up sooner or later :P

Too bad I couldn't find the plans of HMS Leander. I know that Leander's commander was so remorseful about the fact that he had allowed the Constitution to escape, he later cut his own throat and died.

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Newcastle lines in better quality.

 

FSWffAa.jpg

 

I don't think of Newcastle and Leander as ugly, the second row of cabins is of course a later addition when the pair were serving as flagships, and before that they looked much like any other British frigate of the period, only larger and with an unbroken row of upper deck ports.

 

Only worry about putting these ships in Naval Action is that they are very quick (Newcastle 14kts large and 13kts!! close-hauled), more heavily armed than even the Constitution and such a ship could easily destroy balance.

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She's just slightly more powerful than Constitution. (just more carros on spar deck). And her speed can be nerfed (if that account of her speed is correct). She's still a ship from Napoleonic era and could serve as a nice alternative to Constitution, as having only one 4-rate frigate in the game is a bit boring to my mind.

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Not impossible, fir ships were well known for speed in close-haul, and Newcastle/Leander are the largest examples of the type.

 

And even if that was a typo to say 14kts large and 12 close-haul, Newcastle would still run down any other frigate ingame at any angle (except Endymion going downwind in 18pdr configuration).

 

Considering the late arrival and limited service of these 2 ships (at least, limited service before the end of War of 1812), I wouldn't really like to see them dominating open world PvP.

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As I recall, Gardiner's opinion is that Leander and Newcastle needed a lot of wind to get moving. Meaning that Constitution et al could escape them in mild weather. But in heavy weather their lower ports lacked clearance, so there was a relatively narrow window where the razees could both catch and beat an American 44.

 

I may be getting my razees mixed up, though. Are their ports really that low? And this contradicts what Gardiner says about their stiffness enabling the lee battery to be fought in any conditions. 

 

I'm leaning towards typo. Too bad Gardiner is a recluse that doesn't reproduce his primary sources, so no way of knowing.

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Think you are describing the razeed 74s (Majestic etc) rather than the Leander or Newcastle, which were normal British frigates with plenty of freeboard and good all round performance.

 

The razees were impressive vessels, certainly outmatching the Constitution with 32s on the lower deck and a full battery of 42lb carronades, but their speed suffered somewhat from their rig having been reduced during conversion, they made only 11-12kts (Majestic slightly faster). With the original 74 rig they might have been fast enough to give the Constitution trouble.

 

That said, the razees weren't slow, Majestic in particular lead the early pursuit of President, only dropping back as the wind fell. Majestic also engaged a French squadron of 2 44 gun frigates (who were escorting 2 storeships), running down and capturing one of the frigates and driving the other off, which illustrates both her power and speed.

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As I recall, Gardiner's opinion is that Leander and Newcastle needed a lot of wind to get moving. Meaning that Constitution et al could escape them in mild weather. But in heavy weather their lower ports lacked clearance, so there was a relatively narrow window where the razees could both catch and beat an American 44.

 

I may be getting my razees mixed up, though. Are their ports really that low? And this contradicts what Gardiner says about their stiffness enabling the lee battery to be fought in any conditions. 

 

I'm leaning towards typo. Too bad Gardiner is a recluse that doesn't reproduce his primary sources, so no way of knowing.

 

The Newcastle is not a Razee.  A razee is a ship that was originally a larger ship that had her topdeck removed.  In the time period of this games, most razees were older ship of the line that were later re-purposed as frigates by cutting off the top deck.  The Newcastle was a purpose built heavy-frigate, not converted from a ship of the line.

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Not impossible, fir ships were well known for speed in close-haul, and Newcastle/Leander are the largest examples of the type.

 

And even if that was a typo to say 14kts large and 12 close-haul, Newcastle would still run down any other frigate ingame at any angle (except Endymion going downwind in 18pdr configuration).

 

Considering the late arrival and limited service of these 2 ships (at least, limited service before the end of War of 1812), I wouldn't really like to see them dominating open world PvP.

 

 

Ah, forgot that they were made of pine. But still, 13 knots close-hauled would be amazingly fast.

 

And you´re right, from a historial point of view, 24-pounder frigates like the Bellona-class or Forte/Egyptienne would be better. Or Fisguard/Résistance for style points :P

 

When do we get Indy, by the way? Early access?

 

I may be getting my razees mixed up, though. Are their ports really that low? And this contradicts what Gardiner says about their stiffness enabling the lee battery to be fought in any conditions.

 

 

Depends. If they just razée´d the upper deck and kept the gun deck at the same level as the SoL, than you get a frigate with ~ 5' to 6' distance of the middle gunport to the waterline, which is not that much. And could be too stiff to porperly function as a sea-going ship, as the french found out when they experimented with razées in the 1780s (metacenter ftw!).

If it´s combined with a 'Great Repair' and adjustments to the gun deck level, than chances are good that you get a decent frigate.

Edited by Malachi

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I creeps into the discussion, but not much.

Here is a speed average of Sané type frigates and also razed 74-gun. (of course oak hull)

Frigate of Sané type :

On the wind = 6 to 9 knots

Wind on the quarter = 11 to 13 knots

Down wind = 8 to 10,5 knots

Rases 74-gun :

On the wind = 4 to 7 knots

Wind on the quarter = 10 knots maximum

Down wind = 7 to 8 knots

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Newcastle lines in better quality.

FSWffAa.jpg

I don't think of Newcastle and Leander as ugly, the second row of cabins is of course a later addition when the pair were serving as flagships, and before that they looked much like any other British frigate of the period, only larger and with an unbroken row of upper deck ports.

Only worry about putting these ships in Naval Action is that they are very quick (Newcastle 14kts large and 13kts!! close-hauled), more heavily armed than even the Constitution and such a ship could easily destroy balance.

Much more lightly-built than the Constitution, however. (And I don't just mean built of pine, but much larger frame spacing, etc. IIRC.) But I'd only want them in their original frigate appearance, not the post-war flagship configuration.

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