Passive Aggressive Pirates.

[TommyShelby]

At that range we could not see what damage you had taken. We were sure we were hitting your masts consistently because we were effectively keeping you in battle. Which means by your own words we were getting penetration against your masts. Also Sails do not give an accurate representation of mast damage as far as I can tell. Sails can be 99% then drop instantly to 50% with the demasting of a ship.

 

When did i say you hit my mast's? Please quote me and show me where. 

What you did was hit my sails once in a while causing little sail damage (4% over 30 minutes). 

And don't tell me you think you could demast a Santi from that range with that little firepower from outside effective range..

 

On topic; 

Puchu asked me if a distance based tagging mechanic (instead of a damage based one) might solve the problem by forcing people to stay within effective range of Long Cannons. 

I'm not entirely sure but i think it's worth discussing. 

 

Oh, and i ordered the frigates to leave the battle so as to support the main fleet. It's not like 1 Santi is going to be sunk by 1 Connie and 1 Trincomalee, atleast not when the Connie and Trincomalee is staying outside effective range of their own guns?

[Scorpio Shirica]

It doesn't matter.  This is a tribunal case, not a discussion on why a player not part of Tommy's clan left the battle early.

 

With all due respect, Admin has already stated that he wants to establish a rule as to these sorts of events.

 

Knowing all factors around the event help to establish opinion.

 

If the opposing side had the ability to fight these two frigates, presumably trying to attack the Santi without getting in range of her guns, but chose not too... then I would suspect that leniency should be granted to the two frigates kiting the Santi? They were at risk at some point and the opposing side chose not to take advantage of that risk.

 

A further question of mine would be though to find the intent. How can we know if Kutai legitimately thought he could damage the Santi's sails enough to do real damage to the ship or was simply keeping it separated from the larger fight the intent? And are either of intents something that should be banned? Or is it not the intent, but how the intent is acted upon the determining factor of if it should be banned?

[Kutai]

When did i say you hit my mast's? Please quote me and show me where. 

What you did was hit my sails once in a while causing little sail damage (4% over 30 minutes). 

And don't tell me you think you could demast a Santi from that range with that little firepower from outside effective range..

 

On topic; 

Puchu asked me if a distance based tagging mechanic (instead of a damage based one) might solve the problem by forcing people to stay within effective range of Long Cannons. 

I'm not entirely sure but i think it's worth discussing. 

 

Oh, and i ordered the frigates to leave the battle so as to support the main fleet. It's not like 1 Santi is going to be sunk by 1 Connie and 1 Trincomalee, atleast not when the Connie and Trincomalee is staying outside effective range of their own guns?

 

So admit that you deliberately left your SOL in combat with two Frigates while ordering your support away. I am sorry but you then expect us to leave you? Basically you are saying that you have the right to automatically disengage against frigates because you are in a Santi?

[FloX]

It pretty much is griefing because they are wasting your time.. if it had been an isolated incident I'd say it is not kosher, however, with a PB in play I think it becomes almost acceptable.

Their tribunal case is laughable though and they should be fined for wasting the courts time.

 

Jeez i need to rewatch that again.... Black adder

[admin]

Tommy.

US players did not let pirates place the flag by constant tagging and suicide sinking/running. And as Krists said you used cutters (and npcs) to pull pirates into instance. 

So why do you think it should not work both ways? 

 

If all parties want to resolve the rule set they should stop blaming and name calling and focus on the ruleset ONLY. or this topic will be locked

 

Focus on how it should work and what should be allowed and what not.

 

preferably in a structured format

1.

2

3.

[Kutai]

I am a rather new player. So I do apologise if I have some how broken the rules however I have only attempted to fight a ship which is larger than me. Shelby CHOSE to send his fleet away and leave him in combat with us. What he is saying is that he should be able to push us back, allow his fleet to escape to engage in another battle and then once they are gone we should either rush into him and die to his cannons or allow him to retreat....... Sorry but this seems wrong to me?

[Powderhorn]

My concern here is twofold, but falls under the same thing - Determining intent.

 

1.  Long-range tagging is often done with the intent of destruction.  For example - I run a Trinc with long 9's as bow chasers (used to be 12s, darn rebalancing!) and 32lb carronades as broadsides (used to be 32s and 24s, hurrah rebalancing! )  I often chase after vessels, slowly whittling down their sails at extreme range until I can close up the gap, and then destroy or capture them.  The intent IS to win.

 

2.  These same mechanics are being used to hold someone in with no possibility of victory.  Maybe these guys did intend to win.  Maybe they even thought they would, no matter how misguided.

 

Both of these fall under intent.  How can we possibly code to determine intent of the aggressor?  And even so, how can we prevent that from being heftily exploited?  (Any new mechanic comes with new exploits, and the more complex the mechanic, the more complex the exploit.)

 

What was displayed here were Fabian Tactics.  I would likely do the same in these guys' shoes.  I'm not even sure about calling it griefing, because while the intent was not to win the small battle, it was to win the larger port battle.  Here, delaying tactics are seen to be used to win the larger battle.

 

Here, the nuisance, I argue, is a valid tactic for a larger strategic goal, and that coding it out would be clunky at best, and introduce more and more intricate problems to deal with.

[Salzi]

Meanwhile the USA has been doing this all evening with cutters

They even used this and an large AI fleet to stop our flag carrier... doesnt seem fair.

But here is a screen shot of the guy who kept me in battle after battle so I couldnt even fight those large battles.

Because the BR of a Cutter lets him engage a consti.. ;3

[Kutai]

My concern here is twofold, but falls under the same thing - Determining intent.

 

1.  Long-range tagging is often done with the intent of destruction.  For example - I run a Trinc with long 9's as bow chasers (used to be 12s, darn rebalancing!) and 32lb carronades as broadsides (used to be 32s and 24s, hurrah rebalancing! )  I often chase after vessels, slowly whittling down their sails at extreme range until I can close up the gap, and then destroy or capture them.  The intent IS to win.

 

2.  These same mechanics are being used to hold someone in with no possibility of victory.  Maybe these guys did intend to win.  Maybe they even thought they would, no matter how misguided.

 

Both of these fall under intent.  How can we possibly code to determine intent of the aggressor?  And even so, how can we prevent that from being heftily exploited?  (Any new mechanic comes with new exploits, and the more complex the mechanic, the more complex the exploit.)

 

What was displayed here were Fabian Tactics.  I would likely do the same in these guys' shoes.  I'm not even sure about calling it griefing, because while the intent was not to win the small battle, it was to win the larger port battle.  Here, delaying tactics are seen to be used to win the larger battle.

 

Here, the nuisance, I argue, is a valid tactic for a larger strategic goal, and that coding it out would be clunky at best, and introduce more and more intricate problems to deal with.

 

I do not see why we would not have been able to win? If we had managed to demast the ship then we would have been able to out manuvour his broadsides and close the range in order to significantly damage him. Even if we had not managed to sink him, we could do enough damage to possibly cripple him in the larger fights happening in the area. 

[Puchu]

Idea:

 

1. Range based tagging system

2. Tagging range based on the effective gun range of the enemy ship

3. no more additions 

[jodgi]

Maybe Kutai doesn't know you can't demast a santi like that, or he's just twisting words to lee-kite the issue if he really just intended on keeping you in the instance?

Griefing? No, but frustrating as hell for you.

Big strategic win to keep your bad boy sucked out of the OW, RvR dudes prolly love this stuff. So, some form of Kutozov. My sig picture is taken at the exact moment Bonaparte understood what Kutozov had done to him.

You have all my feels, tho, Tommy.

[Kutai]

Maybe Kutai doesn't know you can't demast a santi like that, or he's just twisting words to lee-kite the issue if he really just intended on keeping you in the instance?

Griefing? No, but frustrating as hell for you.

Big strategic win to keep your bad boy sucked out of the OW, RvR dudes prolly love this stuff. So, some form of Kutozov. My sig picture is taken at the exact moment Bonaparte understood what Kutozov had done to him.

You have all my feels, tho, Tommy.

 

Sorry, excuse my ignorance here but why would we not have been able to demast the Santi?

[Puchu]

He was out of effective gun range. 

[Scorpio Shirica]

1. Delaying tactics with obvious intent to win a larger goal is allowed.

Wasting time for someone with no intent except to anger the other party, griefing, be disallowed. 

Don't assume malice what can be attributed to ignorance. No game mechanics need introduced that would create new exploits or problems, simply a tribunal discussion between the community to determine intent.

[Kutai]

He was out of effective gun range. 

 

But we were still doing damage to his masts, hence he was kept in the fight. I'm not 100% sure how it works but if we are damaging the masts, even slightly, it may take awhile but we should still be able to score a demast eventually?

 

We are allotted a battle time by the game in order for us to either sink or do as much damage to the enemy ship as possible. Shelby decided to send his entourage away and use his Santi as a block to prevent us from getting them before they escaped. We were using ships that could cause damage to the Santi. He chose to stay in the battle and not retreat by using his frigates and their NPCs as cover so why would we not attempt to do as much damage as possible to him while also attempting to stay outside of his range?

 

Are you saying that we should either rush the Santi or leave him? 

 

Lets put it this way. Should a ship that only mounts cannonades complain when a smaller ship with longs sits outside of his range picking him apart over time?

Edited January 8, 2016 by Kutai

[Nash]

I do not see why we would not have been able to win? If we had managed to demast the ship then we would have been able to out manuvour his broadsides and close the range in order to significantly damage him. Even if we had not managed to sink him, we could do enough damage to possibly cripple him in the larger fights happening in the area. 

 

First, if you are curious how to hard its to demast a Santi with a trinc and a consti, ask your fellow pirate to test it out. try to do it at the same distant.

Second, you were able to kept him in the battle because some of your cannon balls hit the Santi sail, as a result you deal some damage to him. After that, all of your balls hit his hull at max distant, so there is not damage at all.

 

My concern here is twofold, but falls under the same thing - Determining intent.

 

1.  Long-range tagging is often done with the intent of destruction.  For example - I run a Trinc with long 9's as bow chasers (used to be 12s, darn rebalancing!) and 32lb carronades as broadsides (used to be 32s and 24s, hurrah rebalancing! )  I often chase after vessels, slowly whittling down their sails at extreme range until I can close up the gap, and then destroy or capture them.  The intent IS to win.

 

2.  These same mechanics are being used to hold someone in with no possibility of victory.  Maybe these guys did intend to win.  Maybe they even thought they would, no matter how misguided.

 

Both of these fall under intent.  How can we possibly code to determine intent of the aggressor?  And even so, how can we prevent that from being heftily exploited?  (Any new mechanic comes with new exploits, and the more complex the mechanic, the more complex the exploit.)

 

What was displayed here were Fabian Tactics.  I would likely do the same in these guys' shoes.  I'm not even sure about calling it griefing, because while the intent was not to win the small battle, it was to win the larger port battle.  Here, delaying tactics are seen to be used to win the larger battle.

 

Here, the nuisance, I argue, is a valid tactic for a larger strategic goal, and that coding it out would be clunky at best, and introduce more and more intricate problems to deal with.

 

The different between you and the pirate is that you try to get close to the ship so you can actually deal damage but in this situation, they try to stay at max range and their cant hit the sail of the Santi to deal damage anymore.

 

 

 

Ideas:

1: we will need a set of distance in battle, if you are somehow far enough for a set amount of time, you can leave since we have no circle of  death in OW battle. 

2: reduce tagging distance for based the type of ships: cutter, yacht, will have the smallest tagging distance, max will be some frigates since it their job.

    Also, at the moment, at the max range of tagging, no long guns can actually reach their target

3:

Edited January 8, 2016 by Nashandra

[TommyShelby]

Tommy.

US players did not let pirates to place the flag by constant tagging and sinking/running. And as Krists said (which you ignored) you used the cutter (and npcs) to pull pirates into instance. 

So why do you think it should not work both ways? 

 

Sorry i missed Krist's post. 

I didn't know we were using a Cutter to do so. This is not acceptable either in my opinion. 

I was told we had several players in frigates at Puerto Del Padre when the pirates made the flag. I myself was at La Tortue. I ordered our frigates at Del Padre to engage the enemy fleet head on. The guys in the frigates (based on what was said on teamspeak) engaged the enemy fleet and stayed within effective range (where they could actually do damage) untill they were sunk. 

 

That is fair game. 

 

The ships that engaged me sat outside of effective range, not only of my guns, but of their own guns as well. Even throughout 90 minutes they would not have been able to achieve any of the things they claim they tried to achieve (Demast, sink Santi). It's simply impossible and you, as one of the developers must know this as well. 

Had they stayed at a range where they would have been able to demast me then i would have had no problem with what happened. 

 

Ofcourse it should work both ways. If this is deemed Griefing (as i think it should be) i will immediately tell our guys to never do it again. (Use cutters and staying outside of effective range). If you tag someone you have to fight to some degree, whether you like it or not. 

If we do not deem this griefing then i promise you that we will see hundreds of these instances where someone intentionally waste's other peoples time and keep them from playing the game as it's supposed to be played. 

- I can understand that Kutai is a new player and might not have known that he was outside of effective range of his own guns. So no hard feelings. 

 

I think Puchu's idea might be a good solution to this.

[Kutai]

First, if you are curious how to hard its to demast a Santi with a trinc and a consti, ask your fellow pirate to test it out. try to do it at the same distant.

Second, you were able to kept him in the battle because some of your cannon balls hit the Santi sail, as a result you deal some damage to him. After that, all of your balls hit his hull at max distant, so there is not damage at all.

 

 

The different between you and the pirate is that you try to get close to the ship so you can actually deal damage but in this situation, they try to stay at max range and their cant hit the sail of the Santi to deal damage anymore.

 

 

 

Ideas:

1: we will need a set of distance in battle, if you are somehow far enough for a set amount of time, you can leave since we have no circle of  death in OW battle. 

2: reduce tagging distance for based the type of ships: cutter, yacht, will have the smallest tagging distance, max will be some frigates since it their job.

    Also, at the moment, at the max range of tagging, no long guns can actually reach their target

3:

 

And yet the Santi had his sails completely up. So we MUST have been doing damage to his masts...

[Puchu]

I dont have the exact numbers here, but let's set up an example:

 

A mast of a Santi takes around 7 hits of 42 pounder cannons to fall. (thats what admin said in the mast hp rebalance post)

Tommy has yellow reinforced masts, thats +100% hp.

That means his bottom section of the masts takes 14 hits of 42 pounder cannons. 

On a connie you have max 24pd cannons, so it takes roughly the double amount of hits, so you need 28 hits from your lower deck guns. 

Also Masts, even if you hit them, might not take damage from such low pd guns, so let's be generous and say that 50% of your shots actually penetrate, then it would take you 54 hits on the bottom section of that one mast to take it down.

That is from close range.

If you are at that high range, the damage and the penetration of your guns falls off greatly, so let's again be generous and say it falls off to 50% damage and 50% penetration. (its probably less)

So you are up to around 200 hits on the bottom section of that mast. 

The bottom section of that mast is probably less than 1 mm wide at that range.

Again, being generous, if you even manage to hit 2 hits per broadside on such a small target, you will need 100 broadsides to take down that mast.

 

I will let you do the final counting on how many broadsides you can possibly dish out within 1h30min. 

 

But let me tell you this: You had no way of taking down tommys masts like that.

[Kutai]

I dont have the exact numbers here, but let's set up an example:

 

A mast of a Santi takes around 7 hits of 42 pounder cannons to fall. (thats what admin said in the mast hp rebalance post)

Tommy has yellow reinforced masts, thats +100% hp.

That means his bottom section of the masts takes 14 hits of 42 pounder cannons. 

On a connie you have max 24pd cannons, so it takes roughly the double amount of hits, so you need 28 hits from your lower deck guns. 

Also Masts, even if you hit them, might not take damage from such low pd guns, so let's be generous and say that 50% of your shots actually penetrate, then it would take you 54 hits on the bottom section of that one mast to take it down.

That is from close range.

If you are at that high range, the damage and the penetration of your guns falls off greatly, so let's again be generous and say it falls off to 50% damage and 50% penetration. (its probably less)

So you are up to around 200 hits on the bottom section of that mast. 

The bottom section of that mast is probably less than 1 mm wide at that range.

Again, being generous, if you even manage to hit 2 hits per broadside on such a small target, you will need 100 broadsides to take down that mast.

 

I will let you do the final counting on how many broadsides you can possibly dish out within 1h30min. 

 

But let me tell you this: You had no way of taking down tommys masts like that.

 

So what you are saying here is that people with large ships, sailing alone, should be completely immune to smaller ships harassing them and that we should either attempt to rush them or allow them to retreat? There is a reason that large ships should have escorts. If he chose to send his escorts away and expected us to simply allow him to leave with his ship instead of sitting outside of his range and peppering him then that is his failing. 

 

What this comes down to here is he has the biggest ship in the game, with the best enhancements and the most gold invested in it so we should not be able to touch him and he should be immune to our pitiful frigates? Then when we sit outside of his range because hes decided to take medium or cannonades he has the right to complain? All this AFTER he sent his PROTECTIVE fleet away?

Edited January 8, 2016 by Kutai

[Puchu]

I'm saying: you had no chance of taking down his masts the way you tried it.

 

 

(to be honest: you would probably need like 300 broadsides to take it down, because getting even 1 hit on that section has to be considered luck)

[TommyShelby]

But we were still doing damage to his masts, hence he was kept in the fight. I'm not 100% sure how it works but if we are damaging the masts, even slightly, it may take awhile but we should still be able to score a demast eventually?

In theory, yes. But in this exact case no, it's not possible within the 90 minute time window. 

 

We are allotted a battle time by the game in order for us to either sink or do as much damage to the enemy ship as possible. Shelby decided to send his entourage away and use his Santi as a block to prevent us from getting them before they escaped. We were using ships that could cause damage to the Santi. He chose to stay in the battle and not retreat by using his frigates and their NPCs as cover so why would we not attempt to do as much damage as possible to him while also attempting to stay outside of his range?

The problem is you weren't doing any damage because you stayed outside of your own effective range. (Yes, you did 4% sail damage over 30 minutes which i think we can both agree doesn't make any difference). 

 

Are you saying that we should either rush the Santi or leave him? 

No, but you should stay at range where at the very least your own cannons do damage actually making it possible for you to demast me rather than just tickle me. 

 

Lets put it this way. Should a ship that only mounts cannonades complain when a smaller ship with longs sits outside of his range picking him apart over time?

No, definitely not. But you weren't picking anything apart, you were ´barely doing damage to my sails. You were too far away for you own cannons to actually do damage. This the whole reason why i thought your intention was to "grief" me (Literally do nothing else than keep me in battle and waste 90 minutes of my life). But again, i realise now that was not your intention and i'm sorry for assuming so. No bad feelings from my side. 

[Nash]

So what you are saying here is that people with large ships, sailing alone, should be completely immune to smaller ships harassing them and that we should either attempt to rush them or allow them to retreat? There is a reason that large ships should have escorts. If he chose to send his escorts away and expected us to simply allow him to leave with his ship instead of sitting outside of his range and peppering him then that is his failing. 

Yes and No

 

If you know that a santi has a medium gun and you have long, you also has the heel you can out range him pretty hard. As a result, you should know better that getting closer will not hurt you or put you in any kind of danger from a santi aiming at water. Again, try it with your fellow pirate.

 

And yet the Santi had his sails completely up. So we MUST have been doing damage to his masts...

 

You cant event see his sail during that time, how do you know you hit something?

Edited January 8, 2016 by Nashandra

[Kutai]

Yes and No

 

If you know that a santi has a medium gun and you have long, you also has the heel you can out range him pretty hard. As a result, you should know better that getting closer will not hurt you or put you in any kind of danger from a santi aiming at water. Again, try it with your fellow pirate.

 

This is the second Santi that we have had the pleasure of fighting in our Frigates. The last one we captured and sold onto Gamover. That was also a GOLD Santi with GOLD enhancements. That time we had a few more frigates with us but we managed to accomplish it in a much smaller time frame. So by our reckoning we should have been able to do the same but over a longer time period. At the end of the day there NEEDS to be a down side to having a SOL. That downside is that they are cumbersome and easily harassed by smaller ships. To tackle this you should always be accompanied by smaller ships... AKA Frigates. This should provide you with the adequate protection to fend off attackers like us. Tommy HAD those frigates and then decided to send them away.

 

At the end of the day if a SOL is caught in open water by itself, then it is that players own fault and the attacker should not be penalised. I agree that tagging needs some work but what happened to Tommy is the risk you take when you decide to sail solo in the largest ship in the game. There MUST be consequences for being singled out and found alone in your SOL. Otherwise why would EVERYONE not simple sail SOLs?

Edited January 8, 2016 by Kutai

[Nash]

This is the second Santi that we have had the pleasure of fighting in our Frigates. The last one we captured and sold onto Gamover. That was also a GOLD Santi with GOLD enhancements. That time we had a few more frigates with us but we managed to accomplish it in a much smaller time frame. So by our reckoning we should have been able to do the same but over a longer time period. At the end of the day there NEEDS to be a down side to having a SOL. That downside is that they are cumbersome and easily harassed by smaller ships. To tackle this you should always be accompanied by smaller ships... AKA Frigates. This should provide you with the adequate protection to fend off attackers like us. Tommy HAD those frigates and then decided to send them away.

 

At the end of the day if a SOL is caught in open water by itself, then it is that players own fault and the attacker should not be penalised. I agree that tagging needs some work but what happened to Tommy is the risk you take when you decide to sail solo in the largest ship in the game. There MUST be consequences for being singled out and found alone in your SOL. Otherwise why would EVERYONE not simple sail SOLs?

 

How many frigates did you use last time, how close are you to that santi compare to this time?