Jump to content
Game-Labs Forum
admin

Patch 9.3 - Durability changes

Recommended Posts

Olev I did read the arguments. I am expressing my opinion that has equal validity to anyone elses opinion. That is what the forum is for is it not?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PvO (Player vs. Offline Player) ------ is not PvP.

Mate, have you played the game since open world? PVP rarely happens, PVP in port battles is even rarer, it wont change.

 

edit: i need to calm down, so i will return later, but a lot of the against 1 durability argument either are things that allready are happening with 5 durabilities(in which case you are being very ignorant) or is entirely unrealistic.

Edited by OlavDeng2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Really liking the changes - having a 1st rate sink in battle should be a huge loss to you and your nation. I'm not sure why people think this will stop pvp, yes we're not going to have roaming 1st rates anymore (as it should be) but from a psychological POV people with 1st/3rd rates in port are going to be a lot more willing to throw their frigates into battle. Totally agree with Steel re risk/reward as well.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

[...]

  • Sinking enemy ships of the line becomes important in long term conquest plans; trading 5 frigates for a sol becomes not a loss but a victory

 

 

I bet you are aware of it, but here are some numbers, that might be interesting to everyone else:

 

If you are able to buy all resources at lowest cost, the estimated (rounded) production costs for ships with Oak Framing, while not charging for the used labor time, are: 

 

Santissima - 110.000 - 110.000 / dura

Constitution - 51.000 - 17.000 / dura

 

So the Santi - Conny ratio is: 5,88

 

(numbers are from the Production Cost Analysis Spreadsheet v0.1 and might be slightly incorrect)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mate, have you played the game since open world? PVP rarely happens, PVP in port battles is even rarer, it wont change.

pvp happens if you want it... i pvp everyday at least few times... ask puchu... if you want you can do it.... not realy if you are throwing whole ship with all your upgrades.... so i;; pvp with a default ship withut the upgrades... and you gonna not pvp as usuall... so is it a good change?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There have been more third rates around in the napoleonic time than frigs!

Give at least the third rates 3 duras. 2 for second rates...and one for first rates.

I could life with this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sounds awesome!

 

A very good step in the right direction!

 

(I had a guy in pvp who wanted me to let him live because he didnt want to loose 1 dura on his 5 dura ship. It's not the loss of goods that drives ppl away from pvp it's the frustration that comes from the loss. So in a lot of cases 1dura = 5 duras in terms of pvp-likelyhood. But for the crafters and the Sol concentration on the ow this is a huuuuge issue. We need to create actual loss in the game. If nothing is lost, the game will come to a halt pretty quickly. So in order to keep gaining things, you also have to keep loosing things. Atm. Money appears out of nothing from dmg done. We dont know how it will be in the end, but if money appears out of nothing, it needs to go back to nothing in the end, or we will all be smaug soon. This is overall a very good step!)

 

(Now plz remoove the Shocks, improove raking damage and add value to crew. Damn we're never satisfied, are we? ;) )

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like most of changes a lot: durability changes seems to be right, all we need now is tweak in economy and give us possibility to produce resources in buildings instead order from npc. Making rates expensive should be nice move in long term conquest wargame - only strong and well cooperate nations/guilds will be able to sail them on daily basis. And pvp will be more funny i hope with more ship variety

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, i think it needs to be looked at in a grander scheme of things.

 

As i said earlier:

Durabilities currently are a case of security, people dont want to lose good modules or items.

It is not a case of making them too expensive, its a case of a player being unwilling to accept the risk-reward of that 1 dura 1st rate ship.

 

this seems to be the biggest problem most people have with this system.

Not only that, but people have the mind-set that they always HAVE to sail the best ship possible whenever possible.

This attitude needs to go, allow me to enlighten you why:

 

First of all, make all ships have 1 durability.

Second of all, make crafting ships take RL days. (Frig 4 days, connie 9 days, santi 15 days)

 

There is nothing wrong with sailing a fine trinc, 2-3, with just fine and common upgrades. When you encounter another player, he will likely have a similar ship.

What kind of ship? A fine trinc, 2-3, with just fine and common upgrades, A.K.A. an expendable ship.

Whenever you encounter a person who is WILLING to take the risk-reward of sailing his exceptional trinc, 3-5, with all exceptional modules he is either to be rewarded with an edge over players in expendable ships.

Or, on the downside, he is to suffer the risk and consequences of losing it.

 

For example, if you are defending your capital against a raid from another nation, you would bring you A-game ship. Whenever you are fighting over a trivial outpost, no need to go with expensive gear, unless you are willing to accept the risk-reward.

 

Again, this would result in emphasis on lighter ships, since they are cheaper and faster to build. SOL's will still be accesable, yet expensable and time consuming.

 

Any suggestion to increase the durabilities of 1st rates and 3rd rates is just an attempt to bypass the risk-reward aspect of the game.

Same goes for the durabilities of modules. Modules drop frequently from fights, in such quantity that i regulary have to sell exceptional modules in order to keep my warehouse clean.

 

For the most part I totally agree with this however making it DAYS to craft a ship is crazy in my opinion and it would not attract casual players as the time you are proposing it to take is way to long. This does not mean I do not agree with making it more time consuming (and resource consuming) to build bigger ships but maybe instead of taking 15 days to craft a Santi what about 15 hours as an example?

Edited by GoldenEagleLeader

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What do you think about insurance on ships?

I have no problem with this, given the following things:

 

1. insuranse covers the cost of the ship(like real life)

 

2. insuranse costs money every in game months, you cant pay you loose it

 

3. you dont keep any items of the ship what so ever, nothing, not even the little candle you had on your table when it sank, not a single thing.

 

edit: it covers cost of ship, does not include cannons, modules and anything else custom on the ship.

Edited by OlavDeng2
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have no problem with this, given the following things:

 

1. insuranse covers the cost of the ship(like real life)

 

2. insuranse costs money every in game months, you cant pay you loose it

 

3. you dont keep any items of the ship what so ever, nothing, not even the little candle you had on your table when it sank, not a single thing.

 

edit: it covers cost of ship, does not include cannons, modules and anything else custom on the ship.

So, the more I will use the ship the less it will cover. Since my ship is beat up after battles, actual insurance fee and coverage should drop? or no?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, the more I will use the ship the less it will cover. Since my ship is beat up after battles, actual insurance fee and coverage should drop.  

i think the coverege and fee are static(you bought a vic, say it is worth 400 000, your fee is 10 000 a month, when your ship sinks it should just get 400 000 as that is what you insured it for(ps: these are all abretarry numbers and are only meant as an eksample)), that is just my opinion on this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For the most part I totally agree with this however making it DAYS to craft a ship is crazy in my opinion and it would not attract casual players as the time you are proposing it to take is way to long. This does not mean I do not agree with making it more time consuming (and resource consuming) to build bigger ships but maybe instead of taking 15 days to craft a Santi what about 15 hours as an example?

 

Building time

HMS Victory took almost 10 years to build

If i remember correctly in game it takes 3 days to gather necessary hours to build it and you make it in 1 click

I am not sure 3 days is bad. And I am not sure PvP in ships of the line is the goal of casual players.

Lets not bring casual players into SOL PvP end game meta game :)

 

 

Sea trials and pvp motivation.

Some of you comment that we need to increase motivation and lower the loss. 

Lets all be honest.  Sea trials in april were empty and you could not find a fight AT ALL

 

Reminder on sea trials 1 motivation

1) Ships were free

2) Ships did not have to be repaired

3) No loss 

4) Rewards by pure damage dealt

=

No-one sailed in sea trials by the end of March even with ZERO consequences in the battles.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

SO anyway back to the topic at hand I am wondering if the point of time has come to consider the option to retire from a battle ?

To craft 3 perms with full 4 craft notes is 1000 crafting hours each just for the notes.

Then you can lose also 5 mods that take countless hours to either craft or find.

 

Now I can lose all those real time hours in 30 minutes.

 

My first rate will sit at the docks till wipe then. People say your going to lose it all anyway , yes of course but I would rather lose it to the wipe then get ganked by 5 players and lost it in 10 minutes wiping out all of those real life hours it took to level up and be able to craft it.

 

Might not make sense to a lot of players but crap all those hours and days waiting to get enough hours to craft for something that you can lose everything you crafted in 1 gank makes you think screw that.

 

Maybe allowing a badly damaged ship to retire from battle and not be forced to stay in and be sunk might have a place now.

Could see maybe better rewards if you made a Higher tier ship be it 1st or 2nd rate retire from a battle be an option ?

 

Who is going to pvp in a heavy modded ship and have no thought of loss except large nations that have little restrictions to Ships and materials.

 

This makes fielding a hard to get 1st rate for a small nation that has a hard time crafting or even building them not an option for defence as they will be lost first time they use it in defence of the port .

 

Going to be interesting testing this.

 

edited bias

Ahh yes sorry about that slipped up.

Edited by Dragonfire

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For the most part I totally agree with this however making it DAYS to craft a ship is crazy in my opinion and it would not attract casual players as the time you are proposing it to take is way to long. This does not mean I do not agree with making it more time consuming (and resource consuming) to build bigger ships but maybe instead of taking 15 days to craft a Santi what about 15 hours as an example?

Well, since you have the casual player in mind, ill focus my reply towards them.

 

In my original proposal (http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/7542-crafting-additionoverhaul/) i have given real life hours to ships, resources, everything.

There is a need to create a economical difference between big and small ships, in the assembly of resources, processing of resources as well as the building of the ship itself.

 

With this in mind, the build of a 1st rate would take a casual players days to collect the items, days to process the items, yet an (near) instant build of the ship itself?

That quite frankly doesn't make any sense. Besides, a player is capable of collecting the items whilst a previous ship is being build.

 

 

Besides, a frigate would be only a couple of days, which is a fair amount of time in my eyes. Also, i doubt that the goal of every casual player to just craft 1st-rates all day every day.

So, in all fairness, i don't think this will harm casual players at all. Since they have plenty of time to collect items whilst a previous build is being completed, would you not agree?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have no problem with this, given the following things:

 

1. insuranse covers the cost of the ship(like real life)

 

 

Can you provide a reference of a Military ship sailing to battle insurance? Do you mean the whole Franco/Spanish grand fleet got insured before the battle and then happily claimed millions in Cadiz? 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Building time

HMS Victory took almost 10 years to build

If i remember correctly in game it takes 3 days to gather necessary hours to build it and you make it in 1 click

I am not sure 3 days is bad. And I am not sure PvP in ships of the line is the goal of casual players.

Lets not bring casual players into SOL PvP end game meta game :)

 

 

Sea trials and pvp motivation.

Some of you comment that we need to increase motivation and lower the loss. 

Lets all be honest.  Sea trials in april were empty and you could not find a fight AT ALL

 

Reminder on sea trials 1 motivation

1) Ships were free

2) Ships did not have to be repaired

3) No loss 

4) Rewards by pure damage dealt

=

No-one sailed in sea trials by the end of March even with ZERO consequences in the battles.

tbh if you talk with most ppl in game sea trials period was the most fun one. it get boring only bcs of lack of different mechanics we got now... but the pure fun of constant pvp was awesome

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can you provide a reference of a Military ship sailing to battle insurance? Do you mean the whole Franco/Spanish grand fleet got insured before the battle and then happily claimed millions in Cadiz? 

It is not realistic i agree, i would prefer it not to be implemented, im just telling wind it is one of the things i dont mind.(it definetly never happened irl, i know that)

 

edit: also when i talked about insuranse covering the cost of the items in general(as in for private persons)

Edited by OlavDeng2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

SO anyway back to the topic at hand I am wondering if the point of time has come to consider the option to retire from a battle ?

To craft 3 perms with full 4 craft notes is 1000 crafting hours each just for the notes.

Then you can lose also 5 mods that take countless hours to either craft or find.

 

Now I can lose all those real time hours in 30 minutes.

 

My first rate will sit at the docks till wipe then. People say your going to lose it all anyway , yes of course but I would rather lose it to the wipe then get ganked by 5 players and lost it in 10 minutes wiping out all of those real life hours it took to level up and be able to craft it.

 

Might not make sense to a lot of players but crap all those hours and days waiting to get enough hours to craft for something that you can lose everything you crafted in 1 gank makes you think screw that.

 

Maybe allowing a badly damaged ship to retire from battle and not be forced to stay in and be sunk might have a place now.

Could see maybe better rewards if you made a Higher tier ship be it 1st or 2nd rate retire from a battle be an option ?

 

Who is going to pvp in a heavy modded ship and have no thought of loss except large nations that have little restrictions to Ships and materials.

 

This makes fielding a hard to get 1st rate for a small nation that has a hard time crafting or even building them not an option for defence as they will be lost first time they use it in defence of the port .

 

Going to be interesting testing this.

 

edited bias

Also, runnign away is allready a thing, maybe not in events but you just sail away from the battle.

 

edit: i need to stop double posting :/

Edited by OlavDeng2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

tbh if you talk with most ppl in game sea trials period was the most fun one. it get boring only bcs of lack of different mechanics we got now... but the pure fun of constant pvp was awesome

 

So can you elaborate why people stopped playing even though they had all ships unlocked and had 0 loss and all the fun?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sea trials and pvp motivation.

Some of you comment that we need to increase motivation and lower the loss. 

Lets all be honest.  Sea trials in april were empty and you could not find a fight AT ALL

 

Reminder on sea trials 1 motivation

1) Ships were free

2) Ships did not have to be repaired

3) No loss 

4) Rewards by pure damage dealt

=

No-one sailed in sea trials by the end of March even with ZERO consequences in the battles.

 

That's correct, but the reason for that was not primarily the lack of risks at all. The reason was that, like in every arena game, at the beginning you have a lot of incentives (levelling up, getting new ships, participating in more spectacular battles), then you achieve all that relatively quickly and your experience wears out. So yes, too fast gratification is a poblem. It is not, however, directly related to the problem of risk. I remember you intended about January to introduce ship losses to Sea Trials. Do you think it would change the amount of players in Sea Trials by April? It might have worked as one small incentive-creating measure, but i'm sure it wouldn't change the overall picture.

 

Risk is a double-edged sword. In moderate amounts it actually IS an incentive, because it gives you an additional motivation to return to the game and get a new ship. In less morate amounts it becomes a heavy disincentive and it does that exactly at that point when the player looses his motivation to play (fight, pvp) at all because he doesn't want to replace the ship. A world were there is no risk to loose a ship at all becomes boring because you lose one possible motivation to play the game. But that is not a justification for the other extreme - a world where nobody risks to fight at all. And, let's be sincere, the game is now very close to that end and coming closer to it with the coming patch.

 

So the solution is not just to increase risks but increase the overall amount of incentives for players to fight. Loosing your ship is one moderate motivation if balanced correctly. But it pales in comparision with big metasystems that would invite players to stay in the game for thousand of hours and that we didn't have in Sea Trials: mainly, by that i mean a deep Conquest meta. I would really hope we make that work first, make people come to every port battles in all their numbers and fight as if it were their last hour. And then, if Conquest participation beats all records and SoL turnout is too high, only then, i think it would sensible to reduce the amount of SoLs (though even then i would like to see it reduced through difficulty of obtaining tham and not trough increased fear of loss).

Edited by Nathaniel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What do you think about insurance on ships? 

Since best set of ship upgrades is more expensive than ship - maybe we can insure them? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So can you elaborate why people stopped playing even though they had all ships unlocked and had 0 loss and all the fun?

yes i can. it was bcs all we had to do is fight.( the arena type game is boring after you achived all youi could, an open world one isn't bcs of the whole politics spectrum, at least for me)... now fight is only a part of whole deal, but i can assure you that a lot of ppl were avoiding pvp bcs they were scared of loosing one of 5 durras, how they gonna act now? i am up for testing this and other changes, but i can allready assure you there will be only less pvp bcs of it, not more. if you wanted to make it more even between yellow upgrades users and grey ones you did that... the biggest faction/guilds will still be able to pump more 1st rates and we all gonna fight with blue upgrades going into fights when we got enought numbers difference to smash the enemy.... so even less pvp in total;(

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yes i can. it was bcs all we had to do is fight.( the arena type game is boring after you achived all youi could, an open world one isn't bcs of the whole politics spectrum, at least for me)... now fight is only a part of whole deal, but i can assure you that a lot of ppl were avoiding pvp bcs they were scared of loosing one of 5 durras, how they gonna act now? i am up for testing this and other changes, but i can allready assure you there will be only less pvp bcs of it, not more. if you wanted to make it more even between yellow upgrades users and grey ones you did that... the biggest faction/guilds will still be able to pump more 1st rates and we all gonna fight with blue upgrades going into fights when we got enought numbers difference to smash the enemy.... so even less pvp in total;(

the ones who were afraid of pvp because of 5 durabilities are still going to be afraid of loosing their dura, the ones who were activly seeking pvp are still going to be seeking pvp, it is that simple

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...