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Realistic, then what about pirate's?

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There have been several proposals as to how ships would be acquired. There is a fair chance that a player will not be able to own a large ship, instead, he can earn the right to be assigned one by his national navy.

 

The discussion about it is in the topic named: Method of obtaining vessels, I strongly advice reading the opening post in that thread before diving into the rest of it.

 

~Brigand

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I had an ancestor called Basil Ringrose who was a buccaneer / pirate crew in the 18th Century - and he kept a log that is very interesting reading

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Regarding bounties, they're completely worthless in a game environment.  Pirate racks up a huge bounty, pirate allows friend (or an alt) to "kill" him, pirate collects his own bounty.  They're a joke.

 

I agree, it would have to require sinking said pirate in the ship he's sailing at the time, so that the cost of replacing the ship outweighs the bounty reward.

This would mean any player bounty hunting does not have to take her as a prize to get paid but can happily smash the pirates out of the water and get by on the rewards. just an off the cuff idea, though I'm sure it would work if well implemented.

 

Another issue I thought about when it comes to preventing pirates having their own ships constructed via denying them facility access:  Is a player market in the plans, where ships and equipment can be bought/sold?  If so, pirate players would simply be heavily encouraged to have alt accounts/characters with access to these resources, that they could send money to and receive whatever ships and equipment they wanted anyway.  In short, the nature of a multiplayer game will short circuit the attempt to deny them resources via port access.  On the other hand, it makes it less of a big deal to deny said access in general as the players who wanted to could simply get around it anyway.

 

That's another reason, however, that I argue for access levels (not all or nothing) and pricing based on standing or a similar machination - it would still help lessen the ability of pirates to have large ships, without providing sufficient incentive to just make them give up entirely and make a second account to do the business with.  I should think we would want to avoid the latter in general, not just in this case.

 

 

HMS Bellerophon (74), was about £30,232.14.4d to build, with another £8,376.15.2d to fit out.  That's a lot of ill gotten goods to sell.

 

So let us say she was worth £40, 000 and I'll even throw in £10,000 worth of cargo in the hold. She carried 550 men so it would have to be a comparable force to take her. Let's say a pirate was crazy enough to attack her with 300 crew. They succeed and capture the prize.

That's £50,000 (without taking into account unfavourable rates for stolen goods) divided into 300 shares. So £166 per sailor and £330 to the pirate captain. It's a tiny risk/reward pay-off to the player!

As I mention above, he would be twice as better off as a navy captain capturing a prize worth £5000 and to do that he could have any amount of crew he liked while being paid to do it, as well as not risking his own ship in the process. We're not even going into the logistics of feeding the crew or supplying the ship with food, spares and combat stores like powder, shot and small arms.

Pirating just simply doesn't work in larger ships so you don't need to impose hard limits and handicaps on it.

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I had an ancestor called Basil Ringrose who was a buccaneer / pirate crew in the 18th Century - and he kept a log that is very interesting reading

You should share it, sounds interesting! :)

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You should share it, sounds interesting! :)

 

Yeah anyway you could make that digital for us to read? that would be awesome!

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Bla bla bla  pirates runned entire cities/islands ( nassau)  and raided entire cities (panama for example)  owning harbors  cultivations and resources  btw pirates not need to be able to build ships, but yo buy them or capture them, thats the point.   If a pirate win 200 fight vs sloop he will have enought money maybe for buy a good 50-80 cannon ship 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Pirates

 

 

Did Nassau have a shipyard capable of outfitting and maintaining ships of the line? How long did Nassau resist once the British decided to clamp down on it? Do you understand the difference between raiding a city, and capturing and holding it? Can you show me evidence of an outlaw buying a '50-80' gun ship? 

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Did Nassau have a shipyard capable of outfitting and maintaining ships of the line? How long did Nassau resist once the British decided to clamp down on it? Do you understand the difference between raiding a city, and capturing and holding it? Can you show me evidence of an outlaw buying a '50-80' gun ship? 

 

I think the main argument most of us are making is not that it happened, but that being a game, it shouldn't be technically impossible, just very difficult and not worthwhile.

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We want realism because it's harsh.

 

As for the small "poorly trained" crew, no. They wouldn't be poorly trained.

 

Most pirates were sailors who were out of work and became desperate. They were usually those who lost their jobs as privateers because the respective conflict had ended. And yes they wouldn't stand up to a navy vessel but everyone asking for realism understands what that means and what the reality of pirates were!

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We want realism because it's harsh.

 

As for the small "poorly trained" crew, no. They wouldn't be poorly trained.

 

Most pirates were sailors who were out of work and became desperate. They were usually those who lost their jobs as privateers because the respective conflict had ended. And yes they wouldn't stand up to a navy vessel but everyone asking for realism understands what that means and what the reality of pirates were!

Not in Sweden/Finland, they were just some desperate people. Maybe in caribean, there were more skilled pirates, but in most parts of the world (not china) the pirates were poorly trained what comes to seamanship.

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Did Nassau have a shipyard capable of outfitting and maintaining ships of the line? How long did Nassau resist once the British decided to clamp down on it? Do you understand the difference between raiding a city, and capturing and holding it? Can you show me evidence of an outlaw buying a '50-80' gun ship? 

 

I do not personally believe there was any "free" facility in the Caribbean capable of maintaining that size of vessel, let alone being supplied to do so - you don't make masts and yards out of coconut tree.  The only facilities of that nature were based in Nationally supported ports.

 

 

I agree, it would have to denote sinking said pirate in the ship he's sailing at the time, so that the cost of replacing the ship outweighs the bounty reward.

This would mean any player bounty hunting does not have to take her as a prize to get paid but can happily smash the pirates out of the water and get by on the rewards. just an off the cuff idea, though I'm sure it would work if well implemented.

 

So let us say she was worth £40, 000 and I'll even throw in £10,000 worth of cargo in the hold. She carried 550 men so it would have to be a comparable force to take her. Let's say a pirate was crazy enough to attack her with 300 crew. They succeed and capture the prize.

That's £50,000 (without taking into account unfavourable rates for stolen goods) divided into 300 shares. So £166 per sailor and £330 to the pirate captain. It's a tiny risk/reward pay-off to the player!

As I mention above, he would be twice as better off as a navy captain capturing a prize worth £5000 and to do that he could have any amount of crew he liked while being paid to do it, as well as not risking his own ship in the process. We're not even going into the logistics of feeding the crew or supplying the ship with food, spares and combat stores like powder, shot and small arms.

Pirating just simply doesn't work in larger ships so you don't need to impose hard limits and handicaps on it.

 

So long as that remains true, I'd be ok with it.  We're missing the possibility of someone making a mint in merchanting and trying to supply a pirate alt with an unrealistic ship.  If you add serious maintenance costs to sailing her, to the degree that it might take Navy membership to keep the ship supplied, maintained, and afloat, you may have a solid mechanic.

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Its not like the heavier pirate sols will get far, its only a matter of time before some naval group catches them and sinks the ship. Even the nation the alt uses to supply the pirate will sink it without consequence so players will have to try hard to sneak in a pirate sol undetected. So many lose-lose situations there . ^_^

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Its not like the heavier pirate sols will get far, its only a matter of time before some naval group catches them and sinks the ship. Even the nation the alt uses to supply the pirate will sink it without consequence so players will have to try hard to sneak in a pirate sol undetected. So many lose-lose situations there . ^_^

 

You're making the assumption that you're not facing a force of 20 pirates in First Rates.  ;)

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You're making the assumption that you're not facing a force of 20 pirates in First Rates.   ;)

 

If 20 players manage to buy a SOL and then go all pirate with them, they should win the game.

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You're making the assumption that you're not facing a force of 20 pirates in First Rates.   ;)

 

Sounds like a pretty normal day in Eve.

 

I think if upkeep costs and risk/reward were sufficiently against pirates having larger ships ("large" depending on the typical targets and payout of an individual) there should be no real concern for large groups of pirate 1st-3rd rates.  There may well be a blockade of 20 pirates, but since they can't afford to keep large ships it will be a force of 15 or so sloops of war and a few frigates - an interesting and fun situation as it will draw a lot of attention very quickly.  More concerning would be the frequency of such events.  Something on that scale shouldn't happen often, and if the possibility of it happening often exists, maybe we're looking in the wrong direction right now by concerning ourselves with ship sizes.

 

 

 

If 20 players manage to buy a SOL and then go all pirate with them, they should win the game.

 

Also this ;)

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If 20 players manage to buy a SOL and then go all pirate with them, they should win the game.

The day I come across an armada of 20 pirate ships of the line, of any rate, I shall cease playing. It is asinine.

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The day I come across an armada of 20 pirate ships of the line, of any rate, I shall cease playing. It is asinine.

 

 I'm with you there cap'n! If the game's done right though, there should be little danger of that.

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You're making the assumption that you're not facing a force of 20 pirates in First Rates.   ;)

I know you were only being flippant, but for the sake or proving a point, how many wages would you be liable to pay pirating in EVE? ..What % of any profits would you take? Were there nations of player characters with infinite financial backing hunting you down?

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You board the ship, take it, sail it to whichever nation and sell it. That is how they did it back when, and got rich for it. There was way more then only pirates. Few battles were actually to sink ships only, because ships were so hard to come by. So I would rather see it skill based, then a "pirate" being limited to an in game penalty. If you are the #1 sailor in the game, I would love to see a video or challenges of people taking out some guy who just plays a lot but doesn't know how to work his ship. Also, this is a MULTIPLAYER game and we all know from other games that people go out alone. Your friends maybe don't play, aren't on, etc. and you are so bored you wanna make a quick buck so you take on a nice sized trade in full greed and a gang of like 6-8 clippers or something chase you down. Don't assume everything is going to work like it did in real life. 

 

Hell, if it turns out like EVE online you might see a Goonswarm that has max amount of ships you can have for one group or server and they just troll. 

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Did Nassau have a shipyard capable of outfitting and maintaining ships of the line? How long did Nassau resist once the British decided to clamp down on it? Do you understand the difference between raiding a city, and capturing and holding it? Can you show me evidence of an outlaw buying a '50-80' gun ship? 

 

 

 

 

And still you fail to get the point, how many first rate there was around nassau  or in all the caribean sea?   1? 2?  0 ?   so you gonna play with a  nation navy right? you wanna be storical accurate? that means if someone else in your nation have one you should not get access to a first rate. so stop with this   storical bullshit only becouse you scared like hell  about pirate players be able to compete at equal level to you..  This will be a game with storical figth accuracy not a re-inactment of what happened to a certain faction.    Otherwise each faction or country should be limited to the ships they bringed there   (and some nation not bringed first rates)

 

Nassau was hold for 11 years not properly  a "raid" ,   but there is plenty of evidence of pirates with 50 gun ship.   Even pirates who owned entire fleets of ships

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And still you fail to get the point, how many first rate there was around nassau  or in all the caribean sea?   1? 2?  0 ?   so you gonna play with a  nation navy right? you wanna be storical accurate? that means if someone else in your nation have one you should not get access to a first rate. so stop with this   storical bullshit only becouse you scared like hell  about pirate players be able to compete at equal level to you..  This will be a game with storical figth accuracy not a re-inactment of what happened to a certain faction.    Otherwise each faction or country should be limited to the ships they bringed there   (and some nation not bringed first rates)

 

Nassau was hold for 11 years not properly  a "raid" ,   but there is plenty of evidence of pirates with 50 gun ship.   Even pirates who owned entire fleets of 

 

 

Let's take on admin values for a Victory. Fifty thousand pounds.

 

For an idea, in today's money it would be over 5 million pounds.

 

Not counting the share of loot amongst crew, supplies and maintenance of the ship.

 

Sure, pirates can have it if they capture one or find a shipyard, non aligned, which can build them one, charging that sum plus a good interest.

 

That sum is from treasury coffers, not a freelancer request, so it is cheaper man labour by the hour.

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I agree, it would have to require sinking said pirate in the ship he's sailing at the time, so that the cost of replacing the ship outweighs the bounty reward.

This would mean any player bounty hunting does not have to take her as a prize to get paid but can happily smash the pirates out of the water and get by on the rewards. just an off the cuff idea, though I'm sure it would work if well implemented.

 

 

 

 

So let us say she was worth £40, 000 and I'll even throw in £10,000 worth of cargo in the hold. She carried 550 men so it would have to be a comparable force to take her. Let's say a pirate was crazy enough to attack her with 300 crew. They succeed and capture the prize.

That's £50,000 (without taking into account unfavourable rates for stolen goods) divided into 300 shares. So £166 per sailor and £330 to the pirate captain. It's a tiny risk/reward pay-off to the player!

As I mention above, he would be twice as better off as a navy captain capturing a prize worth £5000 and to do that he could have any amount of crew he liked while being paid to do it, as well as not risking his own ship in the process. We're not even going into the logistics of feeding the crew or supplying the ship with food, spares and combat stores like powder, shot and small arms.

Pirating just simply doesn't work in larger ships so you don't need to impose hard limits and handicaps on it.

 

This plays perfectly into my hand, since I want piracy to basically be the game's "hard mode," while fitting into the overall lore. With costly, but theoretically passable limitations, only the best players will succeed at piracy even temporarily, and they would have a fucking blast while doing it. If they're ever smart enough to add permadeath, you die soon enough and get back to playing a "real" Captain again.

 

By allowing the game to show the consequences of pirates overreaching, you prevent a ridiculous "pirate nation" with a fleet of Santissimas, without slapping ambitious players on the hands and saying, "NO. Thinking outside the box in this game is BAD.

 

Even today, there's not a lot stopping you from building a small rocket in the wilderness and trying to put something in orbit, aside from the unimaginable cost and technical expertise required, even if it's a tightly regulated industry. Sure, you'd be caught shortly after, and punished severely, but I think that only improves the analogy. We need to be able to try bad ideas.

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This plays perfectly into my hand, since I want piracy to basically be the game's "hard mode," while fitting into the overall lore. With costly, but theoretically passable limitations, only the best players will succeed at piracy even temporarily, and they would have a fucking blast while doing it. If they're ever smart enough to add permadeath, you die soon enough and get back to playing a "real" Captain again.

 

By allowing the game to show the consequences of pirates overreaching, you prevent a ridiculous "pirate nation" with a fleet of Santissimas, without slapping ambitious players on the hands and saying, "NO. Thinking outside the box in this game is BAD.

Well stated.

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So if we limit pirates from being able to get large ships like the victory are we also limiting the amount of players in nations that can get SoLs since the bulk of fleets were not made of SoLs, especially the largest ones. I mean the spanish only had about 200 (they made) between 1690 and 1858. Thats 200 over nearly 200 years and probably only 15-30 in service at once. So if pirates are limited in the ships they can obtain then all the national navies must be limited...you know historical accuracy and everything. And furthermore the ships that any privateers use must be limited also to be equal to what the pirates can obtain...since you know thats what they are.

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So if we limit pirates from being able to get large ships like the victory are we also limiting the amount of players in nations that can get SoLs since the bulk of fleets were not made of SoLs, especially the largest ones. I mean the spanish only had about 200 (they made) between 1690 and 1858. Thats 200 over nearly 200 years and probably only 15-30 in service at once. So if pirates are limited in the ships they can obtain then all the national navies must be limited...you know historical accuracy and everything. And furthermore the ships that any privateers use must be limited also to be equal to what the pirates can obtain...since you know thats what they are.

Personally, I've been advocating for exactly that myself. :). Though pirates and privateers are functionally different, both are required to obtain their ships themselves, he it purchased or taken a prize.

The difference is that perhaps the Privateer has a group of investors that foot the bill for a nicer ship. Certainly not a higher Rated ship though.

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What I feel is going to happen, is when this game is released, everyone will be a pirate and the only "military" will be NPC's patrolling their own national waterways.  Merchantmen will be non-existent because it will be like being the only fish in a pond of sharks.  It will be impossible to be a solo player, and fall into the ways of gang warfare.

 

Maybe one of the ways around this is to make salvaged goods (from sunk ships) have no resale value.  They can be usable items for the possessor but can't be sold for money.  This could take some of the appeal away from merchantmen.  But I  feel this is only making a fat fish, a skinny fish in a pond of sharks.

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