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Duplicating Bellonas


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Do you know the legend of wheat and chess? If u start with one piece and double it over and over again, it would grow expontional. After 64 times (number of squares on a chess board) u would have 18,446,744,073,709,551,615 pieces (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheat_and_chessboard_problem ).

Of course u can't do the same in NA because there are some restictions.

 

Lets say we have only 6 player of one nation and 1 one of another nation, battle will last around 30min and doubled ship will be used again. Also no ship sink during the process.

 

After 1,5 hours playtime everyone has a dublicate of the ship (1->2->4->8), than the first restiction comes in place and only 6 dublicates can be created per half hour.

After 4,5 hours everyone has at least 5 dublicates (1->2->4->8->14->20->26->32->36).

After 10 hours there a over 100 dublicates. That is enought for everyone of that groupe to get the recipe and to have spare ships if they loose one of the ships.

 

IMO it is a expoit that creates a massive imbalance.

Edited by Gregorey
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I don't think you guys get it, ofcourse we expect there to be exploits. It's our job to FIND them, not ABUSE them.

After you find one you report it to the devs and don't use it, there is no excuse for using this exploit.

A lot of people spend a long time playing this game to progress if ppl take shortcuts it hurts the honest ppl.

Although the progress is gonna be reset on launch this still hurts us now and takes the fun away from playing the game.

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as testers we are here to break the game,

some people are here playing not testing and crying over nothing

it's alpha no one is getting an advantage over anyone else.

everything means nothing until going live

good job finding a loop hole

Yes we are here to find breaks and fix them, the people that are doing the honest thing and playing which is still testing the drop rates of recipes and all the rest and how long it can take to achieve proper crafting and weather it needs tuning is more testing then what these exploiters are doing, i mean what was the point of the crafting reset then??? We could have kept all our ships and gold and then started the crafting process, everyone was equal after the money and full xp was redeemable, all i see from this continued exploiting and no longer testing as its been found, is just to have all the good stuff before port battles and gain a better advantage over those doing it how the game meant to be.

And i also found this from admin

Exploits and game breaking bugs.

It is the responsibility of captains to report exploits and game breaking bugs.

If you found something that allows you to receive abnormal amounts of XP, money or goods - please report this by using F11 or on the forum.

Its ok if you used that bug for testing reasons and reported all cases to us. It is not ok to use the exploits consistently.

Captains with abnormal net wealth will have all their assets removed and in subsequent cases their accounts deleted.

Edited by Ronald Speirs
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Yes, wipe will erase it all in a few months.  But really, we need to stop with this exploit.  Admin told me on October 12th the exploit was fixed in the dev build and is coming next patch.  I think a patch is coming this week or next but that is just a rumor/guess.

 

 

Another possible exploit is this:  1 player with 5 durability Constitution.  Go into battle, capture another ship.  Release the Constitution.  Teammate captures the Constitution, breaks it up for recipe chance, repeat 4 more times.  Build another Constitution, repeat.

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well that isn't really an exploit you still lose materials and gold and basically when you can transfer recipes that tactic is gonna be useless and is just a replacement.

The duplicating however makes ships out of thin air and that's so wrong

 

5x the chance of a recipe vs 1.

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There have been 2 exploits people got accounts wiped over. Farming damage against players, which messed up combat testing, and duping gold, which makes useful testing of the economy impossible.

 

This exploit, duping 1st/2nd rates, makes all further testing of economy useless and ruins testing of upcoming port battles. What useful data can you gather when half the server has endless duped top tier ships that they can throw away without any care for loss?

 

Duping 1st/2nd rates ruins two stages of testing, it's as bad as both previous account-wipe exploits put together, so why is this being tolerated? At the least, all the duped ship must be removed, along with any recipes gained from breaking them up. Personally I'd like to see the accounts of people who persistently exploited beyond test/report wiped too, but maybe that's not essential (sends a good message though, because getting a reputation for allowing exploits is a very quick way to kill a game, and I really don't that to happen to NA because I love playing it). 

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Im more annoyed by the fact ive seen 4 seperate examples of this dupping in the last 2 days.  Battles of 3 ships @ 900 br vs 1 ship at 35br....doesnt take a genius to figure out whats going on.  it annoys me that those are players im missing out on the option to attack....yarrrrrr

Edited by Flavalicious
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First, the second Open World was introduced to the players, the Admins began violating their own rules of exploit. It was very irritating to see things (farming damage) dealt harshly with in sea trials but given a thumbs up in Open World. It was very schizophrenic of them and confusing if not irritating for us. But I realized over time and which this particular instance helped to hammer home, is that the rules in Sea Trials are not the same rules in Open World. The admins have failed to explain this to us but it is something we can gather from their decisions in OW.

 

In Sea Trials pirates farmed each other for xp and were banned or reset. In the OW the only limitation put on it by the admins was that you can't fire green on green but the exploit or loop hole still allows pirates to farm each other, give each other hell, and leave without sinking anything.

 

The same goes for the duping of ships but instead of the small farming damage from the large for xp, you have the large farming ships from the small. Its the same thing though in principle. Farming outside of the intent of the game.

 

But the admins for now are allowing these two things to go on so the rules have changed. They may have their reasons. Maybe they want larger ships out there for Port Battles and they think the crafting of them is taking to long. Maybe they are trying to avoid the backlash from some of their comments about past abuses and abusers. It doesn't really matter. They are allowing it now.

 

At the outset of this our group had a long discussion on how to use this loop hole. We had come to the conclusion that it all about intent that makes it an exploit or not. For instance, if I have a pirate friend and he allows us to attack him and he then spawns in ships that will be equal to our own and we can dupe than that is an exploit. Our intention is never to go after the pirate friend in the first place. We are using him as a work around. But, if I attack a player that I don't know, knowing that he will most likely spawn in reinforcements allowing me to duplicate ships then that is exactly how the system is designed to work. There is no exploit whatsoever. With the ocean so devoid of NPCs in many places I may use that to simply get ships to kill. It just happens that in this case it is so we have a crack at certain types of ships. Either way, its as the game was designed and therefore no exploit whatsoever. But alas, the admins have allowed both methods for now so why not take advantage of it. Everyone else will.

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In front of plimouth we meet French players and sweden players duplicating ships.

We thought they were fighting so we move there to heop the french but they were playing with the sweden in mmod to duplicate the ships.

 

Since this topic popup and since admin says it's not forbidden but will be off in next patch, i never see so much pavel. I've already heard of victory spawn cheat.

The idea of cheaters is not to generate1 dura ship to sail them but to get them and destroy them in mood to get the reciepe or to get gold.

It's totatly breaking balance between the nation.

A nation that get the reciepe to build a ship that can be build once a week can popup 10-20 ships of it in one day.

 

Few days ago EdR were the top eco society launching ship before the others ones. And then cheating appear.

People begin to duplicate bellona to obtain pavel reciepe. They made enough to get it and then as soon as they get pavel reciepe they build it and cheat agin to get victory reciepe and i'm sure in few days santi reciepe.

 

They d'ont care as they already get max level to all thsi ships but doing that in less than one week players switch to bellona to victory withtout crafting them.

With one craft account able to build bellona you can build one ship every 2 days making your % of getting reciep very low.

Cheating introduce reciepe, reciepe introduce unbalance.

 

Playing months, specially in rvr against known cheating players, cheating society and cheating nation is really hard to thoses who refuse to work that way.

 

Seeing devs don't caring about players saying they cheat and destroy games balance is weird and not improving our wish to involve more into the testing games.

 

I remember old days were there were just tester ig, we should have report it to make it fixed and never use it. Now you can sail with entire fleet in pavel that popup^in one day and everyone say ok with tyhat.

Thoses not cheating think: why not me? and everyone cheat too.

As edr we will not fall in the dark side but i'm really sad about all this bug exploti that is probably the worst we get since early early acces launch.

 

I would recommand Craft wipe for all involve in that.

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This was reported by players and captains on the list were reporting this as well. We clarified the position that it takes time to sink the reinforcing enemy and thus is is no different from sinking an NPC at sea.

 

Spawning rare ships by means of reinforcement

This is already fixed in the forthcoming patch

 

Spawning common ships to capture them

It is no different from attacking a solo bellona.

It puts you at risk on the open world and if you are the enemy player you can enter that battle and use this to your advantage.

 

Stronger BR attack defense difference control that will be added before port battles will partially solve this problem.

But there is nothing we can do to stop players from using legitimate mechanics in unintended ways. Weaker ships can ask for reinforcement  - It is not an exploit - you will spend same amount of time sinking or capturing similar ship in the open world.

 

I wanted to touch on this some more when I had some time to think on it.  These were Bellonas, and, by my understanding, "rare ships," as they are never seen on the open ocean captained by NPCs.  (A Bellona is not a 74, as evidenced by the crafting path noted here:  http://i.imgur.com/LDeuF5w.jpg )

 

As a stepping stone to higher up ships, this is using a mechanic in an abusive manner.  I THINK we can all agree on that.  However, the stance here is, as pointed out by another, "schizophrenic."  In this instance, admin has the onus of preventing exploits on the developers.  "There is nothing we can do to stop players from using legitimate mechanics in unintended ways."  Yet, the same could be said about the gold creation / character creation exploit that people had their gains taken away from them.  In that instance, the onus was on the player for not abusing an exploit once discovered - so much so that those who reported it and did not abuse it were to get some sort of reward, while those who did abuse it were punished.

 

Yet here ( http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/2346-forum-and-sea-trials-rules/?p=134195 ) admin states that:

 

Exploits and game breaking bugs.

 

It is the responsibility of captains to report exploits and game breaking bugs.

If you found something that allows you to receive abnormal amounts of XP, money or goods - please report this by using F11 or on the forum. 

Its ok if you used that bug for testing reasons and reported all cases to us. It is not ok to use the exploits consistently.

Captains with abnormal net wealth will have all their assets removed and in subsequent cases their accounts deleted. 

 

 

Here, reporting something is not enough to absolve one of one's guilt.  "It is not ok to use the exploits consistently."

 

It is true that many are concerned by the impact that these duplications of rare vessels will have on the game.  However, what is also at issue here is a loss of justice.

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Ive seen 4 of the factions do it. The largest problem is now its impossible to guage how fast a nation can realistically outfit its fleet. Took over a month to get a trinco and then we went from that to seeing 3 victories today, despite the recipe only being in circulation for like half a week lol

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Yes, and, a particular reason why such should be treated very harshly:  We are not here merely to play the game, but to test it to further development.  We were supposed to be testing the economy this patch, so that it could be adjusted accordingly.  All that work that we did, slowly building up into frigates, has been wasted.  We wiped the server.  We got everyone back to square one so that a major component of this game could be tested thoroughly and appropriately, and instead, the impact, timing, and balance of crafting can no longer be judged, as it is no longer an isolated variable.

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Hi,

Yes, I and others are duplicating ships atm.

As admin had stated earlier in this post, it is an exploit to be removed with the next patch.

That being said and in the open, it means this is a chance to some of the coveted receipes.

A chance for us all...

What we are doing here atm?

We are testing a game, battles, exploits, crafting and in future portbattles.

With RNG deciding wether you get a receipe, we should take on every chance on those. Port battles will come up and wont do much good in 74's.

To properly test the port battles, sol's have to be in game, preferably sailed by all nations.

RNG will create an economy on its own when the playerbase increases, currently it is a lot harder to get a sol receipe.

That is why I will exploit it as long as it is allowed and possible.

I have a suggestion for assuring sols in portbattles:

Maybe a few redeemables should be given to crafters of lvl 45 without sol receipes, just for spreading the goodies fair and square and leveling the playing field.

In the end I want a balanced, fair game going into the market, at this moment we are just providing data and feedback to the Devs, all our spoils are going to wiped anyway.

If there is something immoral about those motives pls let me know.

Grtzzz Bubbles

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Yes, and, a particular reason why such should be treated very harshly:  We are not here merely to play the game, but to test it to further development.  We were supposed to be testing the economy this patch, so that it could be adjusted accordingly.  All that work that we did, slowly building up into frigates, has been wasted.  We wiped the server.  We got everyone back to square one so that a major component of this game could be tested thoroughly and appropriately, and instead, the impact, timing, and balance of crafting can no longer be judged, as it is no longer an isolated variable.

 

 

Hi,

Yes, I and others are duplicating ships atm.

As admin had stated earlier in this post, it is an exploit to be removed with the next patch.

That being said and in the open, it means this is a chance to some of the coveted receipes.

A chance for us all...

What we are doing here atm?

We are testing a game, battles, exploits, crafting and in future portbattles.

With RNG deciding wether you get a receipe, we should take on every chance on those. Port battles will come up and wont do much good in 74's.

To properly test the port battles, sol's have to be in game, preferably sailed by all nations.

RNG will create an economy on its own when the playerbase increases, currently it is a lot harder to get a sol receipe.

That is why I will exploit it as long as it is allowed and possible.

I have a suggestion for assuring sols in portbattles:

Maybe a few redeemables should be given to crafters of lvl 45 without sol receipes, just for spreading the goodies fair and square and leveling the playing field.

In the end I want a balanced, fair game going into the market, at this moment we are just providing data and feedback to the Devs, all our spoils are going to wiped anyway.

If there is something immoral about those motives pls let me know.

Grtzzz Bubbles

 

There is something immoral about what you are doing.  What exactly are you testing when you are repeatedly doing an exploit?  "Yup, it's still there!  OK guys, let's go do this again as soon as this fight is over to make sure the exploit is still there!  OK, and again, make sure it's still there!"  etc. etc. etc.  This patch was to test crafting, and port battles were to be tested (presumably) with crafted ships.  Crafted ships have limits on how quickly they can be built, you are circumventing those restrictions.  Crafting supplies, crafting hours, play time required to build ships, replacement time for ships, ship life expectancy these are all things we were supposed to be testing that you have decided to simply not do.  And, adding insult to injury, you're intention is to then take these ships that you gained with work approaching zero against people who have put in significant work into building their ships.  Your losses are not equivalent to their losses, as you lose 20 minutes of work, while they may lose a day's worth.

 

Instead of testing to ensure a better game, you are testing to gain an advantage over fellow players.  You have broken faith with your fellow testers by shifting your focus from testing to personal gain.  You are advocating for a perversion of honest testing.

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Hi,

Yes, I and others are duplicating ships atm.

As admin had stated earlier in this post, it is an exploit to be removed with the next patch.

That being said and in the open, it means this is a chance to some of the coveted receipes.

A chance for us all...

What we are doing here atm?

We are testing a game, battles, exploits, crafting and in future portbattles.

With RNG deciding wether you get a receipe, we should take on every chance on those. Port battles will come up and wont do much good in 74's.

To properly test the port battles, sol's have to be in game, preferably sailed by all nations.

RNG will create an economy on its own when the playerbase increases, currently it is a lot harder to get a sol receipe.

That is why I will exploit it as long as it is allowed and possible.

I have a suggestion for assuring sols in portbattles:

Maybe a few redeemables should be given to crafters of lvl 45 without sol receipes, just for spreading the goodies fair and square and leveling the playing field.

In the end I want a balanced, fair game going into the market, at this moment we are just providing data and feedback to the Devs, all our spoils are going to wiped anyway.

If there is something immoral about those motives pls let me know.

Grtzzz Bubbles

 

Bubbles :(

What you are doing is irreparable damage to the port battle test because with duped first rates every crafter will have the recipe - long after they have fixed the cloning mechanism.

 

You are literally forcing everyone to do the same thing now before the fix or face a massive disparity in three decker supply.

This is just fucking great.

 

Can we have admin ruling on dupe ok or not? Do we need to start duping?

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Its the receipe I care about, current chance is too low. Just increasing the chance, as it is available right now I suggest you do the same.

I dont want an increased chance of receipes, this will work fine when this game goes live and we will get more players and more spawns.

Im pretty sure everyone is attacking smaller ai fleets with the expectation of a respawn, or did a pvp with someone with the agreement that no ships are sunk.

This is just a variant on it and we still have to board the ship that we capture, so it is still a battle.

Grtzzz Bubbles

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"I think everyone else is doing it, so I'm just doing it too, but if you're not, you should be."

I was a part of the clan discussion that Johnny Reb mentioned. My part of the discussion was vehemently laying out how it was an exploit, against everything we were supposed to be doing (testing), and that I would personally report anyone caught doing it.

No, not everyone has been doing it. That justification is weak on a good day, and simply untenable here.

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Naw bubbles with respect, if port battles were in or announced to be coming in a week or so you might have a point. But it could be christmas or later before we see anything truely representing end game port battles. As is all duping has done is fuck up the info gathering on the pacing of crafting. EVERY crafter in a faction does not need a recipe the second they get to that level, everyone seemed to do fine getting trincos and 74s rolling. No one NEEDED to dupe because all nations were more or less at the same point. Now the testing of SOL production is fucked, they might as well through the random fleets back in now because any testing of crafting pacing is toast.

 

I dont really care if people have SOL ships from duping. Im not sailing one myself and im not in a nation competiting on the fleet level, but if the purpose of crafting was only having "basic" ships in the OW and everytging else crafting only, then its pouched.

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